[Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures

Fri May 30 03:27:27 UTC 2025

I recommend the historian Tom Holland’s book ‘Dominion’ as a great overview of the impact of Western Christianity on societies, including those which are not officially Christian (or in the Western Hemisphere). Australia may not have an official religion, but its institutions are founded on a Christian ethos (the term that is erroneously used is ‘Judeo-Christian’, which itself presupposes a Christian view on what Judaism is about).

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Ilana Mushin FAHA
Professor of Linguistics,
School of Languages and Cultures

Deputy Associate Dean (Research),
Faculty of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences.

University of Queensland
St Lucia, QLD 4072
Ph: (07) 3365 6810

CRICOS Provider No: 00025B

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of JOO Ian via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Date: Friday, 30 May 2025 at 1:17 PM
To: Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures
Dear Ilana,

"The nation of Australia is predicated on these ideas and so we can say that Australia (as a national idea) is a ‘Western’ society, even if the population comes from all over the planet."

How is the Australian nation based on Christianity when it has no state religion?
If by European intellectual traditions you mean those like democracy, laicism, or capitalism, aren't most modern states founded based on those ideas, including Japan or South Korea?

Regards,
Ian

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朱　易安
JOO, IAN
准教授
Associate Professor
小樽商科大学
Otaru University of Commerce

🌐 ianjoo.github.io<http://ianjoo.github.io/>
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________________________________
보낸 사람: Ilana Mushin <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
보낸 날짜: 금요일, 5월 30, 2025 11:49 오전
받는 사람: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>; JOO Ian <joo at res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>; Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
제목: Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures

I think ‘Western’ for me is less about hemisphere and more about intellectual traditions – those that emerged from Western Europe and especially the Western European branch of Christianity (Catholicism, followed by Protestantism). The nation of Australia is predicated on these ideas and so we can say that Australia (as a national idea) is a ‘Western’ society, even if the population comes from all over the planet. ‘Traditional’ in the Australian context tends to apply to Indigenous cultures when talking about cultural practices (including language) that pre-date colonisation; and for non-Indigenous culture when talking about cultural practices that pre-date immigration.

--
Ilana Mushin FAHA
Professor of Linguistics,
School of Languages and Cultures

Deputy Associate Dean (Research),
Faculty of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences.

University of Queensland
St Lucia, QLD 4072
Ph: (07) 3365 6810

CRICOS Provider No: 00025B

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Date: Friday, 30 May 2025 at 12:38 PM
To: JOO Ian <joo at res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>, Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures
Dear Ian – I doubt Americans, Australians, Brazilians, etc., would appreciate being called ‘European’, yet their majority cultures/societies are ‘Western’ (i.e., of European descent).

That was the easier of your two questions. The first one is trickier. I agree with you in principle that it would be appropriate to extend the concept of indigeneity to any communities that aren’t colonial or descendant from colonizers. The problem is that the descent part of that definition requires some sort of temporal horizon, or some other framing perspective. Bantu people colonized much of Sub-Saharan Africa, Tupians large swaths of the Amazon. Do we therefore treat Bantu and Tupian cultures as non-indigenous? I think it depends on the context – there is likely no universally valid definition.

Best – Juergen

Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
Professor, Department of Linguistics
University at Buffalo

Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
Phone: (716) 645 0127
Fax: (716) 645 3825
Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/

Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)

There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
(Leonard Cohen)
--

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of JOO Ian via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Date: Thursday, May 29, 2025 at 22:23
To: Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures
Dear Juergen,

By ‘indigenous’, I mean pragmatically that the presence of the community in the area they inhabit is not an immediate result of European colonization.

Why European colonization specifically, and not colonization by other forces (such as the Han colonization of Taiwan)?

‘(Non-)Western cultures/societies’: By this I mean any cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent.

Why not just call them European?

From Otaru,
Ian

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
朱　易安
JOO, IAN
准教授
Associate Professor
小樽商科大学
Otaru University of Commerce

🌐 ianjoo.github.io<http://ianjoo.github.io/>
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보낸 사람: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>이(가) 다음 사람 대신 보냄: Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
날짜: 금요일, 2025년 5월 30일 11:01
받는 사람: Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
주제: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures
Dear all – I really need your help with this! I’ve been struggling for quite some time now with the terms ‘traditional culture/society’ and ‘(non-)Western culture/society’. Both concepts play significant roles in my work, but both labels seem problematic. I’m looking for better alternatives. (If you want to call this query an exercise in political correctness, I would plead guilty to the charge. I do try to avoid offending people unintentionally.)

Let me briefly try to explicate the concepts that I have been using these labels for:

‘Traditional cultures/societies’: Small-scale indigenous communities practicing predominantly non-industrial (or pre-industrial) modes of production in non-urban settings. By ‘small-scale’, I mean that stratification is predominantly in terms of age and gender, division of labor is low, and offices of power are largely non-hereditary. By ‘indigenous’, I mean pragmatically that the presence of the community in the area they inhabit is not an immediate result of European colonization. And the concept needs to be flexible enough to allow for the fact that the overwhelming majority of such communities are part of larger majority societies, are in more or less intensive contact with them, are under pressure by them, etc.

I suspect that objections to the label ‘traditional’ may be the result of associating that label with Social Darwinism. At the same time, I find the label acceptable to the extent that one accepts that modes of production, while not following a strict developmental sequence, are not distributed randomly throughout human history either, particularly in the sense that industrialization did not take place prior to the Industrial Revolution. So what I’m looking for is a label that occupies the sweet spot between Social Darwinism and completely ahistoric and non-evolutionary perspectives of social organization.

The sexiest currently available alternative to ‘traditional’ is ‘non-WEIRD’, in the Heinrich-et-al.-(2010) sense of ‘WEIRD’ (Western educated industrialized rich democratic). I don’t personally mind using that term, but it is awfully vague. There are many developing nations that I would not consider WEIRD (they may check neither of the five definitional properties), but that do not globally fit the ‘traditional’ concept either.

‘(Non-)Western cultures/societies’: By this I mean any cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent. The problem with the label ‘Western’ is the very misleading geographic association with the Western hemisphere: the vast majority of Europe isn’t even part of the Western hemisphere, and there are ‘Western’ societies (societies of European descent) outside Europe *and* outside the Western hemisphere, *and* of course there are many ‘non-Western’ cultures in the Western hemisphere. I’m well aware that the etymology of this use of ‘Western’ has little to do with the model of the geographic hemispheres, but my sense is that people make the association whether it belongs there or not – I know I do.

I suspect the best solution to the second problem is to just talk about ‘cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent’. That’s a mouthful, but sooner or later somebody will coin a handy acronym. But I wanted to make sure I’m not missing anything.

Anyway, many thanks in advance for your help! – Juergen

Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
Professor, Department of Linguistics
University at Buffalo

Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
Phone: (716) 645 0127
Fax: (716) 645 3825
Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/

Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)

There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
(Leonard Cohen)
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