[Lingtyp] [EXTERN] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 138, Issue 11

[Annemarie Verkerk]

Thanks Adam for raising the question and Sebastian for writing about 
German.
Dutch is like German but it seems, at least in the speech of some, to go 
further. I have been puzzled by this for years, that is, the use of 
'die' in front of human proper nouns, to signal either social distance 
(almost something like kin/non-kin) and/or a 'very slight disapproval' 
of the person mentioned.

I don't have further answers though!

Cheers,
Annemarie

On 2026/03/26 13:00, lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Adam James Ross Tallman)
>     2. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Arnold Zwicky)
>     3. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Adam James Ross Tallman)
>     4. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Sebastian Nordhoff)
>     5. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Christoph Holz)
>     6. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (PONSONNET Maia)
>     7. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Pier Marco Bertinetto)
>     8. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>        (Alex Francois)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:31:48 +0100
> From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> 	<LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi all,
>
> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that
> deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary
> description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it
> 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>
>
>
> adnominal
>
> adverbial
>
> verb
>
> proximate
>
> *naa*
>
> *n?a*
>
> *n?ka*
>
> distal
>
> *toa*
>
> *toa*
>
> *toka*
>
> more distal
>
> *oa*
>
> *oa~oka*
>
> *oka*
>
> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>
> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> another language? Let me know.
>
> best,
>
> Adam
> --
> Adam J.R. Tallman
> CNRS, Sedyl
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 07:54:11 -0700
> From: Arnold Zwicky <arnold.zwicky at gmail.com>
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> Cc: Linguistic Typology <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> 	norm
> Message-ID: <733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
>> On Mar 25, 2026, at 7:31 AM, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> ..
>> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in another language? Let me know.
> his isn't very helpful, but I have a recolletion of remote distal demonstratives being cited in several languages, though I can't now find atual citations. (I suffer from having lost all my files and also library access, so I have only my very aged and imperfect memory.)
>
> Arnold
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 16:13:40 +0100
> From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> 	<LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> 	norm
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Sorry just to clarify ... I meant not just cases of "out of vision"
> demonstratives, but cases where demonstratives mean something about social
> inappropriateness or dissonance.
>
> A.
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 3:31?PM Adam James Ross Tallman <
> ajrtallman at utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
>> that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
>> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
>> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
>> doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>>
>>
>>
>> adnominal
>>
>> adverbial
>>
>> verb
>>
>> proximate
>>
>> *naa*
>>
>> *n?a*
>>
>> *n?ka*
>>
>> distal
>>
>> *toa*
>>
>> *toa*
>>
>> *toka*
>>
>> more distal
>>
>> *oa*
>>
>> *oa~oka*
>>
>> *oka*
>>
>> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>>
>> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
>> another language? Let me know.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> Adam
>> --
>> Adam J.R. Tallman
>> CNRS, Sedyl
>>
>>