[Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm

Fri Mar 27 12:28:56 UTC 2026

Hi all,

All these examples that have been brought up are interesting, but in
general, I was sort of interested in the relation between non-visual and
socially inappropriate.

One difference I think between all the examples given so far and the
Chacobo case (if I'm not mistaken), is that in Chacobo, I am talking about
a type of verbal proform 'do/say inappropriate thing', that I call a
demonstrative because it is in a paradigm with the same basic structural
divisions of adnominal forms (neca 'do/say like this', toca 'do/say like
that', oca 'do/say like that over there' = naa 'this'; toa 'that'; oa 'that
over there').
Here's a few examples:
The Chacobo used to dance along to an instrument called a
huacararaririihiti, before the Cayuvava in old times taught them to use a
pan flute. Late Tani Chavez describes the ceremony, pointing out that
people who participated in the celebration were afraid to act
inappropriately because of the magic of this pre-contact instrument
(recording and interview was originally done by Diego Villar and Phillip
Erikson, transcription and translation with help of Miguel Chavez).  This
is actually from a song/chant, but it's my favorite example.

nicapa huacararaririihiti
listen-IMPER guitar?
'Liten to the huacararraririhiti (old guitar)'

maxë jënë rëquë átsa já hua jënë ë atsayamë́quë
urucu liquid before do-now:tr 3 TR chicha 1SG do-now:tr-distpst=decl:pst
'When he made the first urucu chicha, I now made chicha.'

oca-yáma-coni-rá jatirohá
do.like.so-neg-go&do&return-assert all
'No one is going to say or do something untoward (all the men sitting
around drinking)'

The men might be drink from the chicha, but they are not going to make
jokes or act in a potentially disrespectful way because the instrument
inspired some fear in them (in Chacobo myths its not uncommon for people to
transform into other animals if they mock or laugh at magical creatures).

Here's a more mundane example, from a mother talking about people spreading
what she considers to be inappropriate gossip about her child. The gossip
as I understand it, is that they are denying who she claims the father is,
which, again as I understand it, goes against a general Chacobo norm, where
social fatherhood is determined by the mother.

toca tsi ëarí nicatëquëhitaquë nohó xocobo ocahuacanaina
toka tsi ɨ-a-rí nika=tɨkɨ=ita=kɨ
like.this LNK 1SG-ACC-TOO listen=AGAIN=RECPST=DECL:PST
noʔo ʂokobo oka-wa=kan=aina
1SG:GEN HOUSE do.like.so-TR=PL=NMLZ
‘And I heard again the people talking for my child (saying gossip or bad
things about him).’ / Sp. ‘Así yo escuché otra vez la gente habla para mi
hijo.’ ELAR 0146:0090

Actually, its not that uncommon so I could give more examples, but
hopefully that suffices for now.

I think maybe in my English this is like "act untoward", "do a faux pas",
something like that, but it seems to have a "more basic" meaning as like
"do outside of view", and the visual aspect is more obvious (without the
social judgement connotations) with adnominal forms.

best,

Adam

On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 12:59 PM Nino Amiridze via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> There is a growing research on fillers, interjective hesitators and
> placeholders in languages of the world. Demonstratives (whether taken alone
> or as a part of the verb complex) are one of the sources to be used as
> placeholders in many languages partly to substitute for socially
> inappropriate items.
>
> See, for instance, the following works, to list only a few.
>
> Best regards, Nino
>
>
> Amiridze, N., Davis, B. H., and Maclagan, M., editors (2010). Fillers,
> Pauses and Placeholders. (Typological Studies in Language 93). John
> Benjamins, Amsterdam/Philadelphia.
>
> Döhler, C. (2025). `That' placeholder in Komnzo. In Pakendorf, B. and
> Rose, F., editors, Fillers: Hesitatives and placeholders, pages 275–313.
> Language Science Press.
>
> [Hayashi and Yoon, 2006] Hayashi, M. and Yoon, K. (2006). A
> cross-linguistic exploration of demonstratives in interaction: With
> particular reference to the context of word-formulation trouble. Studies in
> Language, 30:485–540.
>
> Pakendorf, B. and Rose, F., editors (2025). Fillers: Hesitatives and
> placeholders. Number 5 in Research on Comparative Grammar. Language Science
> Press, Berlin.
>
> Podlesskaya, V. I. (2010). Parameters for typological variation of
> placeholders. In Amiridze, N., Davis, B. H., and Maclagan, M., editors,
> Fillers, Pauses and Placeholders, volume 93 of Typological Studies in
> Language, pages 11–32. John Benjamins, Amsterdam/Philadelphia.
>
> Seraku, T., Park, M.-Y., and Sakaguchi, S. (2021). A grammatical
> description of the placeholder are in spontaneous Japanese. Cahiers de
> Linguistique Asie Orientale, 50(1):65–93.
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 12:04 PM Volker Gast via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I think it's pretty clear that demonstratives may convey emotive meaning.
>> I wonder to what extent that answers Adam's original question though.
>>
>> An additional element of those 'socially inappropriate' uses could be
>> taboo -- 'he/they did that (thing)', or just 'he/they that-ed'.
>>
>> @Adam: Would you have an example for us?
>>
>> Best,
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> On 3/27/26 05:06, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp wrote:
>>
>> Dear all — I suspect that some of the examples discussed in this thread
>> are primarily recognitional rather than inherently negative.
>>
>> Take Sebastian’s example, *Immer dieser Michel*. What motivates
>> recognitional deixis in this case is notoriety. Notoriety in turn is
>> commonly associated with negative connotation. However, there are plenty of
>> instances where *dies* is used recognitionally with positive
>> connotation. To cite one example (begging all German speakers’
>> forgiveness preemptively for the groan factor) from a popular goofy,
>> shlocky 1970’s song:
>>
>> *Dieser Wuchs, diese Kraft *
>> *weckt in mir die Leidenschaft*
>>
>> (May I please not translate this? Thank you!)
>>
>> Now, this is not to say that there aren’t true examples of social
>> distancing conveyed by deixis. In fact, one might hypothesize that the
>> proximity/distance metaphor for (lack of) familiarity/solidarity/shared
>> in-group membership is itself a universal.
>>
>> For instance, Hanks (2005: 206) notes that whenever a Yucatec adult
>> scolds a child, they will use distal deixis, even if the addressee is
>> spatially close enough to the speaker to warrant proximal use. Since this
>> is exophoric reference, a recognitional analysis is out of the question.
>>
>> Best — Juergen
>>
>> Hanks, W. (2005). Explorations in the deictic field. *Current
>> Anthropology * 46(2): 191-220.
>>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>> University at Buffalo
>>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825
>> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
>> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
>> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
>> (Leonard Cohen)
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Annemarie
>> Verkerk via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Date: *Thursday, March 26, 2026 at 14:15
>> *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] [EXTERN] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 138, Issue 11
>>
>> Thanks Adam for raising the question and Sebastian for writing about
>> German.
>> Dutch is like German but it seems, at least in the speech of some, to go
>> further. I have been puzzled by this for years, that is, the use of
>> 'die' in front of human proper nouns, to signal either social distance
>> (almost something like kin/non-kin) and/or a 'very slight disapproval'
>> of the person mentioned.
>>
>> I don't have further answers though!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Annemarie
>>
>> On 2026/03/26 13:00, lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org wrote:
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>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >     1. Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Adam James Ross Tallman)
>> >     2. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Arnold Zwicky)
>> >     3. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Adam James Ross Tallman)
>> >     4. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Sebastian Nordhoff)
>> >     5. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Christoph Holz)
>> >     6. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (PONSONNET Maia)
>> >     7. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Pier Marco Bertinetto)
>> >     8. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> >        (Alex Francois)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:31:48 +0100
>> > From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
>> <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
>> > To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
>> <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> >        <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> > Subject: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> <CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg at mail.gmail.com>
>> <CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
>> that
>> > deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
>> preliminary
>> > description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I
>> call it
>> > 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this
>> meaning.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > adnominal
>> >
>> > adverbial
>> >
>> > verb
>> >
>> > proximate
>> >
>> > *naa*
>> >
>> > *n?a*
>> >
>> > *n?ka*
>> >
>> > distal
>> >
>> > *toa*
>> >
>> > *toa*
>> >
>> > *toka*
>> >
>> > more distal
>> >
>> > *oa*
>> >
>> > *oa~oka*
>> >
>> > *oka*
>> >
>> > At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>> >
>> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
>> > another language? Let me know.
>> >
>> > best,
>> >
>> > Adam
>> > --
>> > Adam J.R. Tallman
>> > CNRS, Sedyl
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 07:54:11 -0700
>> > From: Arnold Zwicky <arnold.zwicky at gmail.com> <arnold.zwicky at gmail.com>
>> > To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
>> <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
>> > Cc: Linguistic Typology <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
>> >        norm
>> > Message-ID: <733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B at gmail.com>
>> <733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B at gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=us-ascii
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Mar 25, 2026, at 7:31 AM, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
>> that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
>> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
>> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
>> doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>> > ..
>> >> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
>> another language? Let me know.
>> > his isn't very helpful, but I have a recolletion of remote distal
>> demonstratives being cited in several languages, though I can't now find
>> atual citations. (I suffer from having lost all my files and also library
>> access, so I have only my very aged and imperfect memory.)
>> >
>> > Arnold
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 16:13:40 +0100
>> > From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
>> <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
>> > To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
>> <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> >        <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
>> >        norm
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> <CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> <CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Sorry just to clarify ... I meant not just cases of "out of vision"
>> > demonstratives, but cases where demonstratives mean something about
>> social
>> > inappropriateness or dissonance.
>> >
>> > A.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 3:31?PM Adam James Ross Tallman <
>> > ajrtallman at utexas.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
>> >> that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
>> >> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
>> >> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker,
>> it
>> >> doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> adnominal
>> >>
>> >> adverbial
>> >>
>> >> verb
>> >>
>> >> proximate
>> >>
>> >> *naa*
>> >>
>> >> *n?a*
>> >>
>> >> *n?ka*
>> >>
>> >> distal
>> >>
>> >> *toa*
>> >>
>> >> *toa*
>> >>
>> >> *toka*
>> >>
>> >> more distal
>> >>
>> >> *oa*
>> >>
>> >> *oa~oka*
>> >>
>> >> *oka*
>> >>
>> >> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>> >>
>> >> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
>> >> another language? Let me know.
>> >>
>> >> best,
>> >>
>> >> Adam
>> >> --
>> >> Adam J.R. Tallman
>> >> CNRS, Sedyl
>> >>
>> >>
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>
>
> --
> Dr. Nino Amiridze
>
> E-mail: Nino.Amiridze at gmail.com
> WWW: https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/
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-- 
Adam J.R. Tallman
Post-doctoral Researcher
Friedrich Schiller Universität
Department of English Studies
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