10.1043, Disc: Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

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LINGUIST List:  Vol-10-1043. Wed Jul 7 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875.

Subject: 10.1043, Disc: Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

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1)
Date:  Fri, 02 Jul 1999 11:12:07 +0200
From:  Pieter de Haan <P.deHaan at let.kun.nl>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

2)
Date:  Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:07:23 -0400
From:  "Kenneth W. Church" <kwc at research.att.com>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

3)
Date:  Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:00:07 -0500 (CDT)
From:  "James L. Fidelholtz" <jfidel at siu.buap.mx>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

4)
Date:  Wed, 07 Jul 1999 07:16:12 -0400
From:  "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at worldnet.att.net>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Disc: Prep+relative who

-------------------------------- Message 1 -------------------------------

Date:  Fri, 02 Jul 1999 11:12:07 +0200
From:  Pieter de Haan <P.deHaan at let.kun.nl>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

Dear James,

I'm not a native speaker, so any "intuition" I might have on this one
has been acquired more or less artificially, but I would be inclined
to agree with you that

>I think this construction is in an advanced state of near-death

and that most speakers would prefer the construction with the
postposed preposition.  However, there are also constructions, notably
Carsten's # 6:

>(6) Instead, the sites are used by local residents, of who some 25
per or so come by foot and use the sites like an urban park, primarily
to take a walk (Harrison, 1981).  (FR2: 453)

where the alternative construction with the postposed preposition does
not exist - which must have something to do with the fact that in
these cases the PP in which the relative pronoun functions is itself
part of an NP, rather than an adverbial on the level of the relative
clause.

I still teach my (Dutch-speaking) students to use WHOM rather than WHO
when it is immediately preceded by a preposition, irrespective of
whether this occurs in a relative clause or in an interrogative
sentence (To whom were you talking just now?), but would you (and
other native speakers) say that perhaps I'd better not pay any
attention to it? Or should I teach them to avoid the construction with
the initial preposition as much as possible anyway? Are native
speakers beginning to regard this as an awkward or perhaps even
unnatural construction?

Pieter



       Dr Pieter de Haan
       Department of English
       University of Nijmegen
       P.O. Box 9103
       NL-6500 HD  Nijmegen
       The Netherlands
       Phone:   + 31 24 3 61 58 80
       Fax:     + 31 24 3 61 18 82
. . . . . . . . .       E-mail:  P.deHaan at let.kun.nl
                        http://www.kun.nl/engdept/haan.htm


-------------------------------- Message 2 -------------------------------

Date:  Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:07:23 -0400
From:  "Kenneth W. Church" <kwc at research.att.com>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

Yes, I would take this a bit further.  There are a few constructions
like this can distinguish someone a native speaker of American English
from someone who is very good with language, but learned the language
in a class.  I remember my first trip to what was then the Soviet
Union.  We were escorted everywhere by a few English teachers whose
English was perfect in nearly every respect.  I was surprised that
their English was so good considering that they had never spoken to a
native speaker of the language until we arrived.  But there were a few
things like this that reminded us that their English wasn't quite
perfect, and that they had learned the language from text books that
were left over from before the war.


-------------------------------- Message 3 -------------------------------

Date:  Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:00:07 -0500 (CDT)
From:  "James L. Fidelholtz" <jfidel at siu.buap.mx>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Discussion: Prep+relative who

Dear Pieter:
	Certainly most grammarians, pseudo or not, would agree with what
you teach (although I don't speak that way, but that's just because of
avoiding the construction altogether).  It's of course also how I was
taught as a kid.  On the other hand, before making recommendations, you
should check with some Brits, who are known (by us Americans) to speak
weird (and vice versa), to see whether the same sort of 'avoidance'
strategy which, yes, I would suggest from the point of view of this side
of the Atlantic, is also appropriate for European English.  From your
earlier comments, I gather that the situation is similar in Britain,
however.
	By the way, in the example (6) above I would probably use 'of
which', which avoids the problem altogether, and still gives me some
pretense of being among the linguistically elite.

	Jim

James L. Fidelholtz			e-mail: jfidel at siu.buap.mx
Maestría en Ciencias del Lenguaje
Instituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades
Benemérita Universidad Autónoma de Puebla, MÉXICO


-------------------------------- Message 4 -------------------------------

Date:  Wed, 07 Jul 1999 07:16:12 -0400
From:  "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at worldnet.att.net>
Subject:  Corpora: Query/Disc: Prep+relative who



I did not see these data before, but it's clear from the content/context
of virtually all of them that they are British, not American usage.

And to me they sound universally impossible -- PREP + who is not an
option.

-
Peter T. Daniels grammatim at worldnet.att.net

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