LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 03.DEC.1999 (01) [E/LS]

Fri Dec 3 16:23:33 UTC 1999

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From: Anja Meyfarth [AMeyfarth at t-online.de]
Subject:  LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L, 23.NOV.1999 (04) [E]

Hi folks!

I wrote:

>> Other dialect groups are "Westfälisch" (Westphalian in Westphalia) and
>> "Ostfälisch" (Eastphalian in the south of the country Low Saxon). So
talking of
>> "Niedersächsisch" would cause some trouble because people might think,
Westphalia
>> and Eastphalia were excluded.

And Ron commented:

> In what way would this be confusing?  Because of the state of Lower Saxony
> (Niedersachsen)?  Then how come the dialects of Hamborg/Hamburg, Bremen and,

> most importantly, Sleswig-Holsteen/Schleswig-Holstein are included in this
> group?  Are the dialects of Westphalia, Eastphalia and the eastern regions
not
> also descendants of the same language, Old Saxon?

Of course they are. But speaking of "Niedersächsisch" in front of linguists in

Germany would make them think a) you`re talking about "Nordniedersächsisch" or

b) about the Low Saxon dialects in the Netherlands, not of Low Saxon in a
whole.
It`s simply because they are used to it!

That`s all folks!

Anja

----------

From: Henno Brandsma [Henno.Brandsma at phil.uu.nl]
Subject:  LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 02.DEC.1999 (02) [E/LS]

> From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
> Subject:  LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 02.DEC.1999 (01) [E/LS]
>
> > From: Reuben Epp [repp at silk.net]
> > Subject:  LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 01.DEC.1999 (02) [E/LS]
> >         1. Kapitel
> >
> > "Wenn wi as Jungs in uns Nabers Appelboom smeeten, un de Steen
> > vörbiflog in Nabers Ruden, war hei eigentlek nich hen sull; wenn wi
> > denn naderhand ganz gehörig versohlt wurren van de Nabers sülvst
> >  of van uns Vaders, denn säd wi: "Dat harr wi uns anners docht!"
>
> Here comes the translation by J. Poortman
>
> Azze wij as jonges in oeze noaber zien appelbomen bongelden en as de stien
> bij hum deur de roeten vleugen, waar hij einluk niet hen mus, dan zèèw
> later, aw van de noaber zöls of van oeze vaars flink wat op de ribben
> kregen: "Det harre wij oes aanders edacht."
>
> Regards,
> Roger
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject:  Language varieties
>
> Reuben and Roger,
>
> Thanks a lot for giving us an opportunity to compare the original in
"German"
> Low Saxon (Low German) and Netherlands Low Saxon (which dialect?).

Firstly an educated guess as to the variety of Low Saxon:
I think this might be a dialect from the north of the province of
Overijssel or the south of Drenthe. Clues are _stien_ (instead of
_stain_ and _steen_), oes (instead of _ons_ or _os_), and a "general
feel". I don't think it's Stellingwerfs (it's very similar to it, though)
I think they would have _vaers_ or something like that, and _edocht_.
But I do think it's that general area. It's certainly not Gronings,
Achterhoeks or Twents (not pure anyway).

Secondly: Ron, you transcribed "wij" above as "we" in your German
based orthography. I'm not sure that's right, I think that they mean
the sound normally written _wi'j_ in dialects from the area I think
this is from. It's sort of a long [i] slightly diphthongised, it only
occurs wordfinally.

Can anyone back up my guess?

Henno

----------

From: R. F Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject:  Language varieties

Dear Henno, Lowlanders,

Thanks for your feedback, Henno.  You wrote:

> Firstly an educated guess as to the variety of Low Saxon:
> I think this might be a dialect from the north of the province of
> Overijssel or the south of Drenthe. Clues are _stien_ (instead of
> _stain_ and _steen_), oes (instead of _ons_ or _os_), and a "general
> feel". I don't think it's Stellingwerfs (it's very similar to it, though)
> I think they would have _vaers_ or something like that, and _edocht_.
> But I do think it's that general area. It's certainly not Gronings,
> Achterhoeks or Twents (not pure anyway).

I was just going to make a guess along these lines myself, was just a bit
hesitant.  Definitely, to me this dialect seems very "central," neither very
northern (connection with North Saxon in Germany) nor very southern
(connection with Westphalian in Germany).  The border area between Drenthe in
the north and Oaveriessel/Overijssel in the south certainly *is*
geographically very central in the Low-Saxon-speaking area of the
Netherlands.  Whatever it is, I feel it is a southwestern North Saxon dialect.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

> Secondly: Ron, you transcribed "wij" above as "we" in your German
> based orthography. I'm not sure that's right, I think that they mean
> the sound normally written _wi'j_ in dialects from the area I think
> this is from. It's sort of a long [i] slightly diphthongised, it only
> occurs wordfinally.

Thanks.  Yes, I was wondering about that.  I am familiar with the spelling
_i'j_, for instance in Stellingwarf/Stellingwerf Low Saxon (phonetically
something like [I.j] I guess).  I just went by what I saw, _ij_ as in Dutch
and transliterated it as _we_ for [vEI].  Thanks for clearing this up.

I'm also wondering if _a(a)_ (waar, later) and _ao_ (naober) represent
different phonemes.  I will assume so for now and show _ao_ as _å_, as is done
by some in Germany.  (It tends to be written as _ao_ in Westphalia.)

Below is my revision (also taking into consideration _aw_ < _as wij_).

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

****

Translation (Southern Drenthe or Northern Overijssel (?) dialect of Low Saxon,
Netherlands):

Azze wij as jonges in oeze noaber zien appelbomen bongelden en as de stien
bij hum deur de roeten vleugen, waar hij einluk niet hen mus, dan zèèw
later, aw van de noaber zöls of van oeze vaars flink wat op de ribben
kregen: "Det harre wij oes aanders edacht."

The same in a German-based system:

Asse wi as Jonges in use Nåber sien Appelbomen bongelden en as de Stien
bi hüm döör de Ruten flögen, waar hi eenlük niet hen möss, dann sää w'
later, a' w' van de Nåber söls of van use Vaars flink wat op de Ribben
kregen: "Det harre wi us anders edacht."

My own translation (North Saxon, Germany):

As wie as Jungs Stenen in us Naver sien Appelbomen smeten, un as de Stenen
vörbie flögen in Naver sien Ruten , waar he e(g)en(t)lich nich hin schull,
wenn wie denn achterran ganss gehörig versoolt wören vun de Navers sülvs(t) or
vun us Vadders, denn sään wie: "Dat harren wie us anners dacht."

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