LL-L: "Pronouns" [E/S] LOWLANDS-L, 15.JUN.1999 (05)

Wed Jun 16 00:15:16 UTC 1999

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From: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: Pronouns

> From: "john feather" <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: Pronouns
>
> Is Oxfordshire in the West Country? The Oxford "Atlas of English
> Dialects" (Map 33) has an isogloss for nom. sing. "you/thee" running
> through it.

The different sides of Oxfordshire look into very different environemnts.
Northwards lie Warwickshire and Northamptonshire -- South Midlands.
Eastwards and Southwards: Buckinghamshire and Berkshire -- "Home
Counties". And the city of Oxford itself is more London-oriented.

The South-Western boundary of Oxfordshire abuts Wiltshire (next stop
Zummerzet) and the Western boundary abuts Gloucestershire.

I would consider Glawsteshirr to be definitely West Country, therefore
similarly for West Oxfordshire.

By the way, my anecdote about "Why be her looking at we?" was quoted
from memory from several years ago (about 10). I _think_ it was
Oxfordshire, but can't swear to it!

Best wishes to all,
Ted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: 15-Jun-99                                       Time: 21:11:22
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

----------

From: "Sandy Fleming" <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Pronouns

John Feather wrote:

> is the obligatory use in a compound subject (Para 471 Point 5). Harrap New
> Standard F-E Dictionary also cites "Vous et moi nous irons ensemble".

Ah! Compound subject! That's an enlightening term to have, thanks! I do
think that a lot of the problems with grammatical analysis of modern
languages (and even worse, complex dialects like in the West Country) stems
from using terms developed for describing Latin grammar that are simply
inappropriate to other languages.

> Having got to this point I suddenly realise that in Caribbean English "me"
> can be a subject. Ho hum.
>
Or various Cajun dialects where Cajun french influence is still strongly
apparent...

Goodbye Joe, me gotta go, me-o my-o,
Me gotta go pole me a pirogue down the bayou...

:)

> Is Oxfordshire in the West Country? The Oxford "Atlas of English Dialects"
> (Map 33) has an isogloss for nom. sing. "you/thee" running through it.
>
Weeeeelllllll...... Lord Bath, the well-known eccentric and "King of Wessex"
says parts of it _are_.

On the other hand, The Oxford Guide to the English Language restricts the
dialect to a much smaller area - it excludes Gloucestershire, parts of
Hampshire and (incredibly, to me) even the whole of Wiltshire. I suppose it
all depends on which isogloss boundaries you chose as representative, but
Ted Harding's Oxfordshire example does seem to be very clearly West Country
dialect. And the isogloss boundary you mention sounds like a change from
West Country to a more standard dialect, so the two Oxford books seem to
disagree. Could it be that the isogloss is rather too close for comfort with
those Oxford dons?  :)

Sandy Fleming
http:\\www.fleimin.demon.co.uk

----------

From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at jmt.prestel.co.uk>
Subject: Pronouns

Sandy wrate:

>Weel, in _ma_ dialect "you" is definitely the emphatic form o "ye", tho tae
>leuk in the SND ye'd niver guess that it wis onything but the oblique form.
>The SND cites a 1925 airticle on Hawick dialect whare the writer says that
>"you" is niver uized as the nominative wi a verb in the past tense, yit his
>examples dinna illustrate this case. In fact the examples he dis gie are
>richt in line wi ma ain dialect, say A dout the idea that "ye" is nominative
>an "you" oblique isna richt ony mair in modren Scots. In ma dialect there
>seems nae dout tae me that "you" is juist the emphatic form o "ye" (same as
>"me" is the emphatic form o "iz" an like the emphatic forms o ither pronoons
>that isna seen in the spellins).
>
>This is exactly what thon paper ye mentiont says o "du" & "dee", an the
>opposite o what you'r sayin. Sae it could be that you'r richt an the
>writer's made a fause analogy wi mainland Scots like mine? Onywey, tae
>transleiterate your examples tae ma dialect, if A says "You saw me", that
>wad be emphatic (baith the "you" an "me"), an "A saw ye" haes nae emphasis
>(at laest no on the "ye").

Whit div ye mean, it cuid be I'm richt? I ken I'm richt!

I dout thon fause analogy theory is richt eneuch, tho. I ken 'you' is uised
here i the NE whaur 'ye' [i:] wad hae been i the past - or mibbie aye is i
mair kintra airts - e.g. fowk wad aye say. 'Whit ar ye daein', whaur the
'ye' isna emphatic, but wadna likely say juist 'ar ye?' [ar i:] whaur the
'ye' is emphatic - it wad mair likely be 'ar you.' (I dinna ken, mynd -
some fowk wad say it richt eneuch - but mibbie aulder fowk.) But in
Shetlandic, 'Whit's dee doein' an 'is dee?' wadna be unemphatic - it wadna
mean naething ava. It wad be as wrang-soondin as 'What's her doing' an 'is
her?' wad be in _standard_ English (no thon ither kynds at ye'r speakin
aboot.) Du an dee is the singular fameiliar form, of coorse. In my kynd o
Shetlandic, 'ye' isna uised ava - it's aye 'you' for the polite/plural
form. Ye div see 'ye' in aulder writin, but I haena analysed it.

John.

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