LL-L: "Phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1999 (06) [E]

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From: gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu
Subject: f, v, and w

Ron Hahn wrote:

> Dutch <v> tends to be described as a "somewhat devoiced fricative," and to
> non-Dutch ears, including mine, it tends to sound like [f] rather than like
> [v].  Usually, /v/ *is* a fricative, in Swedish or whatever language, and it

> is usually voiced (unless devoiced in certain environments).  (In Afrikaans
> <v> is usually [f], though.)  So, when you say "but unlike in Swedish it is
a
> fricative," it makes no sense to me, because Swedish <v> is [v], clearly a
> fricative.  I think you are comparing Dutch /v/ with Dutch /w/, the latter
of
> which is a labio-dental glide rather than a fricative.

I suppose I get what I deserve when I venture on terrain in which I am
the first to admit I am a layman.  But the way I understand it is that
in Dutch, the 'v' is a voiced labio-dental fricative, whereas in Swedish
it is a voiced labio-dental stop.  I don't have a Swede at hand here,
otherwise I'd ask him/her to pronounce va"lkommen while I measure the
amount of air escaping while the 'v' is being pronounced.

I know that to non-Dutch ears the 'f', the 'v', and the 'w' all sound
similar.  But to us they are phonemic: the words 'fel', 'vel', and
'wel', are pronounced differently, and have different meanings.  Some English
speaking co-workers tend to refer to a mutual (Dutch) colleague as
'Vim' (a cleaning agent) instead of Wim.

Gustaaf

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Web resources

Hoi again, Gustaaf!

You wrote:

> I suppose I get what I deserve when I venture on terrain in which I am
> the first to admit I am a layman.

But we love you anyway.  ;)

> But the way I understand it is that
> in Dutch, the 'v' is a voiced labio-dental fricative, whereas in Swedish
> it is a voiced labio-dental stop.

A "stop"?!  I think not.  The closest corresponding stop to voiced fricative
/v/ is /b/.  I've heard various Swedish dialects, but I have never heard
anyone pronounce <v> as a stop.

Dutch <v> definitely doesn't sound like an English, French or Scandinavian
<v>, namely like [v], *voiced*.  It is less voiced and tends to be perceived
as voiceless by non-Dutch speakers.  In linguistic descriptions it is
certainly treated as distinct from Dutch /f/ and /w/, and phonetically it is
often represented by a [v] with a little circle underneath (standing for
"devoiced").  It's very hard for non-Dutch people to hear the difference
between it and /f/, and one of the perceived features of the "typical" Dutch
accent in other languages is what is perceived as [f] for [v].  I certainly
have no problem hearing the difference between the two of them on the one hand
and Dutch /w/ (a labio-dental glide as typically found in Indian languages and
in Indian English) on the other hand.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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