LL-L: "Romance connections" LOWLANDS-L, 11.NOV.1999 (02) [E/LS]
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Fri Nov 12 00:53:49 UTC 1999
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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.NOV.1999 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1999 (06) [E]
> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Web resources
> Dutch <v> definitely doesn't sound like an English, French or Scandinavian
> <v>, namely like [v], *voiced*. It is less voiced and tends to be
perceived
> as voiceless by non-Dutch speakers. In linguistic descriptions it is
> certainly treated as distinct from Dutch /f/ and /w/, and phonetically it
is
> often represented by a [v] with a little circle underneath (standing for
> "devoiced"). It's very hard for non-Dutch people to hear the difference
> between it and /f/, and one of the perceived features of the "typical"
Dutch
> accent in other languages is what is perceived as [f] for [v]. I
certainly
> have no problem hearing the difference between the two of them on the one
hand
> and Dutch /w/ (a labio-dental glide as typically found in Indian languages
and
> in Indian English) on the other hand.
I think Gustaaf was right in making the distinction between
Holland-Friesland and the other regions. In the Netherlands one sees Brabant
and Limburg convert to follow the Holland pronounciation though.
In Belgium, in general:
the V of "vel", "venster" is pronounced exactly as V in French "ventre",
"vivre" etc. It's one of the ways for identifying directly Southern Dutch
speakers. In the past I allways thought our pronounciation was correct, and
that the Holland one was dialect, but actually Randstad-Dutch is becoming
the standard.
the F of "fel", "felicitatie" is prounounced here exactly as the French F in
"félicitations" etc.
the W of "water" etc. cannot be pronounced by the French. They make
somenting like "OE-ater" out of it. (OE in written Dutch corresponds to the
written U in German)
Regards,
Roger
----------
From: Gerda [gpieterse at intekom.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1999 (06) [E]
Gustaaf,
But then the cleaning agent in Afrikaans/Seffricun English is
pronounced with the English <v> almost like the Dutch first name
'Wim', which makes it all the more confusing! We had great difficulty
buying the stuff when we first came to South Africa (before
supermarkets came in force, where you fetch your own)!
My father was called Yfert instead of Evert in the workplace, by
Afrikaans and English colleagues alike.
Regards from a new member on the list,
Gerda
PS How do I stop receiving the whole introduction before every
message, or is this par for the course?
>Subject: f, v, and w
Gustaaf wrote:
>I know that to non-Dutch ears the 'f', the 'v', and the 'w' all sound
>similar. But to us they are phonemic: the words 'fel', 'vel', and
>'wel', are pronounced differently, and have different meanings. Some
English
>speaking co-workers tend to refer to a mutual (Dutch) colleague as
>'Vim' (a cleaning agent) instead of Wim.
----------
From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" (was "Web resources") LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1
> Ron Hahn wrote:
>
> > LS Uutfaart (MLS>Sw. utfart 'exit' <> D. uitvaart 'funeral'
>
> This makes a trip on the Autobahn for us Dutch such a macabre
> experience: at each and every exit there are signs for an on-
> going funeral. This may be a feeble excuse for our less than
> stellar reputation in Autobahn driving. ;-)
>
es man blauss sau, dat der UITRIT schriewen steiht. As ek dat Schild
as klein Blage dat erstemaol seihn hef, hek dacht, watt't in Holland
doch wahne viell Pea"rre giett.
Reiner
----------
From: Carl Johan Petersson [Carl_Johan.Petersson at Nordiska.uu.se]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1999 (06) [E]
Ron Hahn wrote (in reply to Gustaaf):
>> Dutch <v> tends to be described as a "somewhat devoiced fricative," and to
>> non-Dutch ears, including mine, it tends to sound like [f] rather than like
>> [v]. Usually, /v/ *is* a fricative, in Swedish or whatever language,
and it
>> is usually voiced (unless devoiced in certain environments). (In Afrikaans
>> <v> is usually [f], though.) So, when you say "but unlike in Swedish it
is a
>> fricative," it makes no sense to me, because Swedish <v> is [v], clearly a
>> fricative. I think you are comparing Dutch /v/ with Dutch /w/, the
latter of
>> which is a labio-dental glide rather than a fricative.
>
>Dutch <v> definitely doesn't sound like an English, French or Scandinavian
><v>, namely like [v], *voiced*. It is less voiced and tends to be perceived
>as voiceless by non-Dutch speakers.
I second that. Standard Dutch /w/ is the Dutch sound that comes closest to
Swedish /v/ (NB: I'm talking about the labio-dental realisation of the /w/
as it is pronounced in ABN and the dialects of the northern and western
Netherlands - not about the bi-labial /w/ that can be heard in southern
varieties of Dutch). When I started learning Dutch, I was told by my
teacher that Swedish /v/ and Dutch /w/ are virtually identical. As far as I
know, Dutchmen studying Swedish are taught the same (I know this is the
case with those studying Swedish at Groningen University anyway).
The Dutch /v/, however, is often difficult for Swedish learners, since it
has no equivalent in our language. The advice I got was to pronounce it as
a somewhat "softened" /f/. As far as I know, the distinction between /f/
and /v/ is not always maintained in western Dutch as spoken in for instance
the Randstad area. I faintly recall reading somewhere that this is one of
the features of what is known as "Poldernederlands". Is this correct?
And finally, I'm a linguist working professionally with Swedish dialects,
and I have never encountered any example of Swedish /v/ being realised as a
stop.
Regards,
Carl Johan Petersson
__________________________________________________________
Carl Johan Petersson
Institutionen för nordiska språk
Uppsala universitet Tel: 018-471 68 72
Box 527 Intl: +46-18 471 68 72
SE-751 20 Uppsala Fax: +46-18 471 12 72
E-post:Carl_Johan.Petersson at nordiska.uu.se
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