LL-L: "Language varieties" (was "Low Saxon") LOWLANDS-L, 24.NOV.1999 (04) [E]

Wed Nov 24 22:31:53 UTC 1999

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From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject:  Language varieties, was Re: LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L,
24.NOV.1999 (01) [E]

 > From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject:  Low Saxon
> Roger, do you really think it is appropriate to use lexical influences and
> orthography as factors in classification?
.... And, could
> a government then not just officially introduce a different orthography
(such
> as one based on the orthography of the majority language) and on this
basis
> simply declare that the dialects of a given (minority/regional) language
that
> happen to be used on their side of the border do not belong to the
language to
> which the dialects on the other side of the border belong?
....Yes, political borders and influences due to education and
> communication centralization to play significant roles in the development
of
> languages, but in my estimation it would take a very long time to affect
> classification where political borders separate speakers of the original
same
> language.

Well I think, it's more a politico-sociological identification rather than a
linguistic. The orthography obviously is a convention, but contributes to "a
belonging to a certain group" policy.

Starting with the standard language:
Baarle-Hertog is a municipaly, consisting of about 26 parcels of Belgian
land scattered in the Dutch municipality of Baarle-Nassau. What's supprising
to me, is that the Belgian inhabitants speak their Dutch similar to the VRT
(Flemish TV) with an Antwerpian flavour. The Dutch inhabitants have a
tendency to let their v, g, r move a bit towards the Randstand way, and only
rarely use expressions people in the Netherlands consider to be Belgian.
There have been some incidents in the past, regarding taxation, since the
position of the front door determines wheter the inhabitants of a house are
subject to the Belgian or to the Dutch taxation system, and that border
passes exaclty through the middle of some front doors.But this geographical
mix does not make the Belgian-Dutch linguistic differences fading away.
Well I would not classify Belgian standard  Dutch as an other "language" as
Netherlands standard Dutch. Some people see it as two different languages
though.

An other special case: Lommel in the North-West of Belgian Limburg.
In 1648 (Treaty of Münster in Westphalia) Lommel became part of the
Republic, but in 1808, during French occupation, it was annexed to the dépt.
de la Meuse-Inférieure (later: Belgian Limburg) in exchange for the enclave
of Luycksgestel, and Lommel became Belgian in 1830.
Actually the Brabantish dialect of Lommel is something of it's own,
different as well from the Noord-Brabantish municipalities at it's Northern
border, different from the Antwerpian municipalities at it's Western border,
and also quite different from the Limburgian municipalities at it's
South-Eastern border.
The territorial history still keeps it's marks in the local dialect (as well
as in the way people over there speak standard Dutch).

When (Dutch and Belgian) Limburgians have joint meetings, one quite rapidly
recognises the country someone is coming from, and even the most fanatic
pan-Limburgian nationalist will have to admit that the Belgian / Netherlands
stamp on the language reflects an identity inherited by the history of the
two countries.

At the Dutch / German border I think it's similar, except for the Ripuarian
Kerkrade (Kirchroa) that still has a quite strong German linguistic
identity. The burgomaster of Kerkrade triggered a big row a couple of years
ago, when he started actions for attachement to the German Rheinland.

Turning certain isoglosses, differences of vocabulary, etc. ... into a
border line that separates individual languages is a socio-political matter
rather than linguistic science, I think. The orthography may underline the
choosen identity, or is just a result of the history of the development of
the written forms of the language.

---

Continuing with language diversities, I found in my mail vol I-13 of the
dictionary of Limburgian (Belgium + Netherlands) dialects (1999, XIX + 121
pp., ISBN 90-232-3490-1, Hfl 47.50, distributed by Van Gorcum, Assen, Nl).
These series (that exist also for Brabantish and Flemish), are not really
dialect manuals, but point to variations in specific vocabulary (the vocals
are reverse engineered towards standard-Dutch-alike).

As example: some variations (without listing the municipalities)

STORTKAR: slagkar, kipkar, korte kar, aardkar, bakkar, bak, bortelkar,
klitsji
(comment: klitsji is the common word in the South of Belgian Limburg, the
area where I grew up. In Walloon of Liège the word is "clitchet")

BOOMKAR: mallejan, marjan, huts, uts, nuts, veer, trekbalk, trikebale,
wimpel, duvel, galjaar

Actually, Ron, a few differences in vocabulary alone do not create language
area's (the more since the map for each word is a different one, and one
cannot define a linguistic area by a single word, although Haust did so for
East-Walloon: he defined the area just by the spread of the word "clitchet"
we refered to above, obviously though limited to the Romance area).
I think though, when an area is consistently submerged with an other
"national" vocabulary than an, originally linguistically similar, adjacent
region, at a certain moment the two area's get different identities. Even
when linguists still consider the two area's just having two variants of a
same "language", people in the street may feel the difference much more
significant.

---

Today I also found in my mail a copy of:
R. Belemans and J. Van Thienen, Ich kal ooch Limburgs, Creatief lespakket
voor de tweede en derde graad van het secundair onderwijs. 90 pages, two
loose leaf maps with the isoglosses ik/ich, proaten/klappen/kallen,
ook/ooch, and stickers "Ich kal ooch Limburgs" and it's variants.
It's a manual (in Dutch), published by the Government of the Province of
Belgian Limburg, distributed to teachers of Dutch, teaching to the age
groups 14-16, and 16-18 for making the pupils sensitive to the Limburgian
dialects.

A third impression is announced for the year 2000. But, since I still got my
copy, there still may be some copies left in stock.
It is distributed free of charge. When interested: try to get a copy,
contact: Eef Proesmans, Provincie Limburg, 5de directie Cultuur, afdeling
5.2 Cultuur en bibliotheekwezen, Universiteitslaan 1, B 3500 Hasselt, tel.
+32-11-23.75.34, fax +32-11-23.75.10 or, more simply at "beeld at limburg.be".
(Motivate a little bit why you are interested). Be aware it covers "Belgian"
Limburg only

One chapter treats the dialects of the Netherlands and Northern Belgium, and
has some maps. An other chapter lists some differences between Flemish,
Brabantish and Limburgian, what helps to classify rapidly a dialect from
Northern Belgium.

Regards,

Roger

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