LL-L: "Orthography" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 06.OCT.1999 (01)

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From: Alfred Brothers [alfredb at erols.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Orthography" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 05.OCT.1999 (02)

Jason Childers wrote:

> I had found a site called "Repertoires of characters used to write the
> indigenous languages of Europe". (http://www.indigo.ie/egt/alphabets/ ).
> When I looked at the English site, I found a couple letters that I had not
> encountered before.  Besides "ash" (Æ), "thorn", "eth", and ‘ (is there a
> name for this letter?), I saw two others: "yogh" (sort of a 3 with a front
> tail), and a letter that looks like a modified "eth".  Does anyone know how
> these letters were used, and why and when they left the English languages?
> Are there any other characters that are used in other languages using the
> Latin alphabet?

The "yogh" (the letter similar to a 3) was used in Middle English texts to
represent the sounds now usually written "y", "w" or "gh". Examples are ME
"3ong, dra3en, dou3ter, 3e, 3if, fi3ten" (young, draw, daughter, ye, if,
fight). It was also occasionally used by scribes for voiced /s/ [z] at the end

of words out of confusion with the letter z. It probably dropped out of use as

these sounds changed in pronunciation and fell in line with sounds represented

by symbols already in use (y, w, etc.). (I believe the IPA symbol used for the

"s" in "pleasure" was borrowed from this source.)

Re the symbol resembling a modified "thorn" -- I agree with John Feather that
it's probably the "wynn" symbol, originally a rune, which was used in OE and
occurred occasionally in ME through the end of the 13th century.

Alfred Brothers
alfredb at erols.com

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From: Ted Harding [Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk]
Subject: Re: LL-L: "Orthography" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 05.OCT.1999 (02)

> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:22:08 -0400
> From: Alfred Brothers <alfredb at erols.com>
> Subject: Re: LL-L: "Orthography" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 05.OCT.1999 (02)
>
> The "yogh" (the letter similar to a 3) was used in Middle English
> texts to represent the sounds now usually written "y", "w" or "gh".
> Examples are ME "3ong, dra3en, dou3ter, 3e, 3if, fi3ten" (young,
> draw, daughter, ye, if, fight). It was also occasionally used by
> scribes for voiced /s/ [z] at the end of words out of confusion
> with the letter z. It probably dropped out of use as these sounds
> changed in pronunciation and fell in line with sounds represented
> by symbols already in use (y, w, etc.). (I believe the IPA symbol
> used for the "s" in "pleasure" was borrowed from this source.)

The "yogh" is with us yet, disguised as "z", especially in Scotland.

There is a well-known Scottish newspaper/stationery chain called
Menzies. This is pronounced "Mingies", the "Ming" as in "Ming vase"
(i.e. not with the "j" sound for the "g").

The Australian politician of the same name does not, I think,
pronounce it this way (yet another case, no doubt, of spelling winning
the pronounciation war). Likewise, of recent years the Menzies firm
has opened branches in England and I am sure most English will pronounce
it as spelt.

The name of English politician Tam Dalziel is pronounced "Diyell"
(the "i" roughly as in "pit").

Ted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: 06-Oct-99                                       Time: 09:15:22
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Orthography

Ted wrote:

> There is a well-known Scottish newspaper/stationery chain called
> Menzies. This is pronounced "Mingies", the "Ming" as in "Ming vase"
> (i.e. not with the "j" sound for the "g").

Which, as we discussed on LL-L donkey years ago, is also found in the
Continental Lowlands, in far-western Germany for instance as Menges
['mEN(g)@s].  I understand it occurs in Flanders as well, if that is not even
its place of origin.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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