LL-L: "Syntax" (was "Etymology") [A/D/E] LOWLANDS-L, 07.OCT.1999 (04)

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From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" [D/A] LOWLANDS-L, 06.OCT.1999 (05)

Haai, julle!

Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be] het gevra oor:

*Tmeysken nam haren mantel
Ende si ghinc eenen ganck
Al totter _linde groene_
daer si den dooden vant.
(*versie uit het Antwerps Liedboek 1544)
-Nu heb ik ook een vraag daarbij. In Middelnederlandse
teksten volgt het adjectief nogal eens het woord waarop
het slaat:
     Al totter __linde groene__
in plaats van wat we nu zouden zeggen:
     (Al) tot aan de __groene linde__.
-Is dit onder invloed van het Frans, of komt deze volgorde ook voor in
Oud-Nederduits?

Roger, ek dink dit het eerder met die metriese styl van die liedjie te
doen.
Dis makliker of 'n stygende toonhoogte op _groe'ne_ te sing as op
*_lin'de_.
Die Germaanse klem op die eerste sillabe in _'linde_ sal vreemd op die
oor val.
Dieselfde kenmerk kom ook voor in Duitse Minnesänger liedere.

In ouer Afrikaanse halleluja liedere en berymde psalm tekste kom sulke
gedwonge
vorme ook voor. Het iemand dalk voorbeelde?

O, terloops, in Afrikaans is dit nogal gebruiklik om te sê:
"Gaan dan jou gang" ["Doen wat jy besluit het"] OF
"Kom, gaan jou gang!" ["Raak nou besig!"]

Groete!
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Syntax

Roger wrote:

> -Nu heb ik ook een vraag daarbij. In Middelnederlandse
> teksten volgt het adjectief nogal eens het woord waarop
> het slaat:
>      Al totter __linde groene__
> in plaats van wat we nu zouden zeggen:
>      (Al) tot aan de __groene linde__.
> -Is dit onder invloed van het Frans, of komt deze volgorde ook voor in
> Oud-Nederduits?

Roger, to me this is less of an earlier Low Saxon (Low German) than an earlier
*German* feature, and I find that in this and some other respects Dutch and
("High") German have more in common than Dutch and Low Saxon.  Especially in
German folksongs will you come across constructions such as the one you found
in the Dutch song, and I would not be one bit surprised if I found the
equivalent _... bis an die Linde grüne_ (instead of "correct" _bis an die
grüne Linde_ 'up to the green lindentree (~ limetree)') in a German folksong,
especially where, as Elsie said, such a construction, seems poetically
advantageous.

This type of construction is very common in verse and will often even be used
in modern verse and even in ordinary spoken modes in the Slavic languages
(especially in the Eastern Slavic ones, I believe [bearing in mind that e.g.
in Polish {n}{adj} is the default]), even though the default construction in
Russian, for instance, is {adj}{n} rather than {n}{adj}.

Perhaps as a part of its German heritage but undoubtedly reinforced by Slavic
influences, the {n}{adj} is often used in Yiddish, most often in verse, but I
have heard it used in ordinary spoken Yiddish.  For instance, you get this in
a song:

kinderlakh sheyninke
kinderlakh fayninke

"Beautiful children,
Lovely children"

(All of it is in diminutive form, also the adjectives.)

Of course, you might argue that this is really ...

kinderlakh, sheyninke
kinderlakh, fayninke

"Children, beautiful ones,
Children, lovely ones"

... just as you could argue that _totter linde groene_ could just as well mean
_(tot) aan de linde, de groene_  'up to the lindentree, the green one'.

I can't remember ever finding anything like _totter linde groene_ in Low Saxon
songs and verse (which, again, doesn't necessarily mean that it does not
exist).

I suppose archaic (or "unusual") English has something like that in "Father
dear" and "Mother dearest" (which, however you might analyze as "Father, dear"
and "Mother, dearest" respectively.

What archaic German and archaic Low Saxon do have (though not as default) is
{n}{poss.pron}, such as G _Liebchen mein_ and LS _Vader mien_, _dat Kindken
dien_.  It is even more common in Yiddish (e.g., _di kinder mayne_ 'my
children', 'the children of mine', _kinderlakh mayninke_ 'my (dear) children')
and Slavic (e.g., Russian _devushka moja_ 'my girl', 'girl of mine').
Intriguingly, this type of construction is normal in Norwegian where there is
a special relationship or bond between the possessor and the possessed (e.g.,
_bror sin_ 'his brother' as opposed to _sin vei_ 'his way', 'his path' and
_sin hånd_ 'his hand').

It is my assumption that we are dealing with remnants of very ancient
structure here.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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