LL-L: "Ethnonyms" LOWLANDS-L, 22.OCT.1999 (03) [E]

Fri Oct 22 16:46:07 UTC 1999

 ========================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.1999 (03) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/~sassisch/rhahn//lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 =========================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
 =========================================================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =========================================================================

From: Braw1 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L: "Ethnonyms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.OCT.1999 (06) [E]

 I read, some time ago, that the Gypsies are christians of western India.
And aided, western christians in the crusades.  However, since their people
were nomadic, they lost their traditional lands in India to Islamists.  Is
there any truth to this?
What a most interesting people.
 Are these people(romani) related to the tinkers and caravan peoples in
Britain? I knew of a tinker family in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. They eventually
settled into houses but kept their caravans as second homes when working on
contruction sites all over Scotland.
-Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Ethnonyms

Dear Lowlanders,

Mark wrote:

> I read, some time ago, that the Gypsies are christians of western India.
> And aided, western christians in the crusades.  However, since their people
> were nomadic, they lost their traditional lands in India to Islamists.  Is
> there any truth to this?

Mark, it's the first time I hear this one.  I rather doubt that there is any
truth to it at all.  It is true that most Roma and Sinti became Christianized,
but, as far as I know, that happened in Europe (and elsewhere many formally
took on whatever the predominant religion of a given country may be, such as
Islam).

Here is an excerpt from a brief intro
(http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/history.htm) by the Roma-American scholar
Ian Hancock:

"At the very beginning of the 11th century, India came under attack by the
Muslim general Mahmud of Ghazni, who was trying to push Islam eastwards into
India, which was mainly Hindu territory. The Indian rulers had been assembling
troops to hold back the Muslim army for several centuries already,
deliberately drawing their warriors from various populations who were not
Aryan. The Aryans had moved into India many centuries before, and had pushed
the original population down into the south, or else had absorbed them into
the lowest strata of their own society, which began to separate into different
social levels or castes, called varnas ("colors") in Sanskrit."

 "The Aryans regarded Aryan life as being more precious than non-Aryan life,
and would not risk losing it in battle. So the troops that were assembled to
fight the armies of Mahmud of Ghazni were all taken from non-Aryan
populations, and made honorary members of the Kshattriya, or warrior caste,
and allowed to wear their battledress and emblems."

"They were taken from many different ethnic groups who spoke many different
languages and dialects. Some were Lohars and Gujjars, some were Tandas, some
were Rajputs, non-Indian peoples who had come to live in India some centuries
before, and some may also have been Siddhis, Africans from the East African
coast who fought as mercenaries for both the Hindus and the Muslims. This
composite army moved out of India through the mountain passes and west into
Persia, battling with Muslim forces all along the eastern limit of Islam.
While this is to an extent speculative, it is based upon sound linguistic and
historical evidence, and provides the best-supported scenario to date. Because
Islam was not only making inroads into India to the east, but was also being
spread westwards into Europe, this conflict carried the Indian troops—the
early Roma—further and further in that direction, until they eventually
crossed over into southeastern Europe about the year 1300."

"From the very beginning, then, the Romani population has been made up of
various different peoples who have come together for different reasons. As the
ethnically and linguistically mixed occupational population from India moved
further and further away from its land of origin (beginning in the 11th
century), so it began to acquire its own ethnic identity, and it was at this
time that the Romani language also began to take shape. But the mixture of
peoples and languages didn’t stop there, for as the warriors moved
northwestwards through Persia, they took words and grammar from Persian, and
no doubt absorbed new members too; and the same thing happened in Armenia and
in the Byzantine Empire, and has continued to happen in Europe. In some
instances, the mingling of small groups of Roma with other peoples has
resulted in such groups being absorbed into them and losing their Romani
identity; the Jenisch are perhaps such an example. In others, it has been the
outsiders who have been absorbed, and who, in the course of time, have become
one with the Romani group. "

> What a most interesting people.

Indeed, and very well worth reading up on, also if the topic of ethnic
oppression and stereotyping is of interest to you, even if you confine
yourself to the Lowlands.  Apparently, the earliest record of Roma presence in
non-Balkan Europe is from our Lowlands, namely from Hillmsen/Hildesheim, in
what is now Northern Germany, in 1407.  Massive Roma migration from Eastern
Europe to Western Europe including the Lowlands, happening at the present
time, is by many seen as the Third Great Roma Migration.

The Roma National Congress, one of the most important Roma associations in the
world, mostly representing stateless Roma, is in Hamborg/Hamburg, in the
German Lowlands.  (romnews at compuserve.com, http://www.romnews.com).
Incidentally,  I grew up in a part of Hamborg/Hamburg in which there are
state-/city-allocated Roma campsites and in which there is also a sizeable
sedentary Sinte community.  Some of the older Roma and Sinte I then knew (of)
had survived concentration camps.

> Are these people(romani) related to the tinkers and caravan peoples in
> Britain? I knew of a tinker family in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. They eventually
> settled into houses but kept their caravans as second homes when working on
> contruction sites all over Scotland.

I suspect they are only indirectly related, if at all.  I understand that
these people keep apart from the Romanichal (British Isle Roma).  Remember
that "gypsy" also refers to any non-sedentary person regardless of ethnicity.
However, I don't think it's impossible that there were earlier contacts.  Ian
Hancock:

"In some instances, the mingling of small groups of Roma with other peoples
has resulted in
 such groups being absorbed into them and losing their Romani identity; the
Jenisch are perhaps such an example. In others, it has been the outsiders who
have been absorbed, and who, in the course of time, have become one with the
Romani group."

(The Jenisch of Southern Germany and Austria speak their own Romani-based or
influenced language.)

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

==================================END======================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =========================================================================