LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 10.SEP.1999 (01)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.SEP.1999 (01) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Edwin Michael Alexander [edsells at wwwebcity.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 09.SEP.1999 (01)
At 10:55 AM 09/09/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks for the interesting comments above, Jasmin. It could well be that
people
>once saw fireplaces as quasi-rooms, much like seeing an alcove or nook as
such.
>So it could well be that its name came to denote the room in which it was
>located *as part of the architectural structure*. This could then have been
>carried over to 'stove' once it was invented. As I see it, early stoves were
>nothing more than fireplaces that had come to be enclosed, and they were
>architecturally parts of the rooms in which they were located. In other
words,
>they used to be built into the room. Portable stoves were a later
development.
>Last night I spoke about this with someone off the List, and she pointed out
>that names of important, defining, permanent fixtures oftentimes come to
denote
>the rooms in which they are located. One example is "freezer" denoting
not only
>a freezing device or compartment but also a cold storage room in which
freezers
>are located. Similarly, "toilet" and "bath" can denote not only fixtures but
>also the rooms in which they are located.
As I see it, not enough to decide between the two theories of the origin of
this use of the word <stove>, whether it derived from the concept of the
"room which is heated" being transfered to the "room heater", or from the
idea of the stove being a "miniature room".
>Incidentally, to complicate matters even further, the Low Saxon (Low German)
>word for 'stove' for heating (not for cooking, for which /heird/ ->
_Heerd_ is
>used) is /aaven/ -> _Aven_ ~ _Aben_ ~ _Oven_ ~ _Oben_ (cf. German _Ofen_),
which
>of course is a cognate for English _oven_, a chamber in which you bake or
>roast. Traditionally the _Aven_ is associated with the concept of "home."
The
>expression _achter d'n aven sitten_ (_achter'n Aven sitten_) "to sit
behind the
>stove" denotes something like "to bide one's time (in a safe and comfortable
>place)." This might also be understood as meaning that one stays away
from the
>hustle and bustle of the world, and, negatively, that one is not in touch
with
>the ways of the world, is not very sophisticated. Of course, this
presumes that
>a stove is not built up against a wall but has a space behind it.
Of course the difference between a stove and an oven is that the stove
contains the fire and the oven contains the items being cooked. In the
home in which I grew up, there was a large open fireplace in the
diningroom. In the masonry beside it were installed two long cavities, one
above the other, each with an iron door, the opening of each being about 30
cm/1ft square. These we referred to as "Dutch Ovens", though my father
kept electrical extension cords and saved string in them. I imagine they
would have been designed for baking bread, though it would have been
necessary to put coals in them to get them hot enough. My dictionary also
says that an oven can part of a stove (as we all know), though the converse
is not true. Since an oven seems to be some sort of cavity in a heating
device, is it possible that the word is related to the English word "open"?
My Claiborne etymological dictionary says it comes from IE root AUWK,
"cooking pot", but I wonder....
Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-545-0177 Fax: 905-525-6671 Email: edsells at wwwebcity.com
Jag Realty Inc.: http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
Ontario Ultra Series: http://www.connection.com/~esmond/ouser.html
Burlington Runners Club: http://www.deerhurst.com/brc/
----------
From: Edwin Michael Alexander [edsells at wwwebcity.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 09.SEP.1999 (02)
>From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
>The OED and Duden don't agree with Ed Alexander on "stove" being a cognate
>of "stow". There is an old form "stow(e)" meaning "stove" but it is simply a
>homonym of "stow" in the normal sense, or that's what the OED seems to say.
May be. Claiborne says that "stove" comes from PG root <Staup>, a cooking
pot. He has no reference for "stow". My large Funk & Wagnalls is ambigous
on the relationship between "stove" and "stow", but suggests that "stove"
comes from the Dutch "stoof"!
Looks like we might both be wrong, Ron. Perhaps a Golden Cooking Pot award
is in order for the both of us.
>Am I right in thinking that Americans tend to use "stove" more commonly than
>the British do for the cooking appliance, which we are possibly rather more
>inclined than they are to call a "cooker" or "oven"? (Please note all the
>qualifications!)
Oh, yes! I just had business dealings with a fellow from Derby being
transferred by his company to Canada, and it was definitely a "cooker", not
a "stove".
Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-545-0177 Fax: 905-525-6671 Email: edsells at wwwebcity.com
Jag Realty Inc.: http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
Ontario Ultra Series: http://www.connection.com/~esmond/ouser.html
Burlington Runners Club: http://www.deerhurst.com/brc/
----------
From: Peter Stornebrink [frlboppe at direct.ca]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 09.SEP.1999 (01)
Ron wrote:
>From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
...snip...
>So it could well be that its name came to denote the room in which it was
>located *as part of the architectural structure*. This could then have been
>carried over to 'stove' once it was invented. As I see it, early stoves were
>nothing more than fireplaces that had come to be enclosed, and they were
>architecturally parts of the rooms in which they were located. In other
words,
>they used to be built into the room. Portable stoves were a later
development.
>Of course, we Lowlanders know the earlier version clad in tiles, especially
>those pretty bue-and-white ones. (See the tiles from my private
collection in
>the title panel at http://www.geocities.com/~sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/.)
I have waited for Henno to mention the Frisian word stoof, a wooden 'box'
of about 20 x 20 x 20 cm, open on one upright side and with holes in the
top. At the open side you insert a ceramic open 'pot' (I don't recall how
we called it - 'jiskefet' maybe?). In this ceramic pot one places a burning
coal or two and then puts the whole thing in the stoof. Now you place your
feet on the stoof and enjoy the warmth coming from it. We would sometimes
even sit on them to warm other parts of the body!
Henno may be a few years younger than I am, and most likely has always
enjoyed central heating. I suspect that he has never used a stoof like I
did when I was young. So I realized that Henno might be unfamiliar with
stoofs and therefore I decided to offer this posting.
Stoofs must now be museum pieces until they run out of gas in Europe and
revert back to this old-fashioned technology!
Another word in which stoof occurs is in stoofpar (F) or stoofpeer (D).
That is pears which are cooked till they are soft. Usually 'bessensap' (the
juice from red currants) and some cloves are added for taste. I assume that
the fact that they are boiled on a stove is the reason for calling them
'stoofperen' or 'stoofparren'
That is my two bits to this topic.
Peter Stornebrink, Victoria B.C., Canada
----------
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology
Peter Stornebrink wrote (above):
> I have waited for Henno to mention the Frisian word stoof, a wooden 'box'
> of about 20 x 20 x 20 cm, open on one upright side and with holes in the
> top. At the open side you insert a ceramic open 'pot' (I don't recall how
> we called it - 'jiskefet' maybe?). In this ceramic pot one places a burning
> coal or two and then puts the whole thing in the stoof. Now you place your
> feet on the stoof and enjoy the warmth coming from it. We would sometimes
> even sit on them to warm other parts of the body!
> Henno may be a few years younger than I am, and most likely has always
> enjoyed central heating. I suspect that he has never used a stoof like I
> did when I was young. So I realized that Henno might be unfamiliar with
> stoofs and therefore I decided to offer this posting.
Oh, I know those, though I'm surprised they were still used in living memory! I
only know them from museums in Northern Germany, and I am not surprised they are
common in other parts of the Lowlands. Surely they must have used them on the
British Isles and in early South Africa and North America as well. They were
made either of clay or of iron. They came to be developed into small boxes that
could be carried around and apparently were even (and understandably) carried to
church and hidden under the long skirts of girls and women during those long,
long services in the cold part of the year.
I understand that the most common Low Saxon (Low German) name for this device is
_Füürkiek_ (_Feuerkieke_ or _Fußofen_ ~ _Fußöfchen_ in German). (What is the
etymology of _Kiek(e)_?) Apparently, in some Low Saxon dialects _Stöövken_ ~
_Stöfken_ is used instead, thus the same word that denotes the warming device
for tea or coffee pots I mentioned previously. (After all, the technology is
the same and only the size and what you put onto them varies). I suppose the
original underlying form in Low Saxon and Frisian is /stoov/ (< /stove/) [> LS
/stouv/] (assuming that the W. Frisian spelling _stoof_ is non-phonemic, the
plural being something like *_stoven_).
I assume that _Stöövken_ ~ _Stöfken_ for both types of heating devices is common
in Eastern Friesland dialects of Low Saxon (Low German). It so happens that
today a native speaker of one of those dialects cared to join us from
Birmingham, England. (Moin! Willkamen!) Perhaps she could confirm this.
> Stoofs must now be museum pieces until they run out of gas in Europe and
> revert back to this old-fashioned technology!
They'll surely be reintroduced in the wake of the Y2K bug hitting at 00:01 on
January 1, 2000. There will be a greater run on them than on cabbage patch
dolls and beany babies combined. Now there's a business venture for anyone
enterprising enough!
> Another word in which stoof occurs is in stoofpar (F) or stoofpeer (D).
> That is pears which are cooked till they are soft. Usually 'bessensap' (the
> juice from red currants) and some cloves are added for taste. I assume that
> the fact that they are boiled on a stove is the reason for calling them
> 'stoofperen' or 'stoofparren'
Ah, yes! Of course! Apparently the common form is */stoov-/ 'to slow-cook', 'to
steam', 'to braise', 'to stew'. In Low Saxon it's just /stouv-/, infinitive
_stoven_ (not to be confused with /stöüv-/ _stöven_ ~ /stuuv-/ _stuven_ 'to
dust', related to the noun /stof/ _Stoff_ 'dust'). The past participial form
(/stouv-d/) is used in names of certain dishes; e.g., _stoovde (~ stoovte)
Kantüffeln_ 'mashed potatoes', _stoovde (~ stoovte) Röven_ 'steamed or boiled
turnips or parsnips served with roux', _stoovde (~ stoovte) Beern_ 'braised
pears' (apparently identical to your _stoofperen_ ~ _stoofparren_, another
common Lowlandic thing).
Ed Alexander wrote:
> My large Funk & Wagnalls is ambigous
> on the relationship between "stove" and "stow", but suggests that "stove"
> comes from the Dutch "stoof"!
I've come to be cautious about what is described as "Dutch" loans in some
dictionaries. While I don't doubt that there are lots of Dutch loans in
English, I have a feeling that some such candidates are really Middle Low Saxon
loans. However, /stoov/ _stoof_ > _stove_ seems more plausible than /stuuve/ ~
/stuuv'/ > _stove_ because of the vowel.
> Looks like we might both be wrong, Ron. Perhaps a Golden Cooking Pot award
> is in order for the both of us.
More likely the Golden Chamber Pot Award, Ed, though just being wrong is not
enough for that (and the _American Heritage Dictionary_ would deserve it then
too, for they say it's a Middle Low German loan). To get one of those very
coveted Lowlands-L awards you'd have to introduce a noticeable element of
bizarreness. (What was it again with that nut-throwing squirrel theory years
ago? Rarely a dull moment on LL-L.)
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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