LL-L: "Double negative" [A/E] LOWLANDS-L, 15.SEP.1999 (04)

Wed Sep 15 14:51:08 UTC 1999

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From: Ted Harding [Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk]
Subject: Double negative

There is an interesting inverse relationship between the usually
"ungrammatical" use of double negative in Germanic/English languages
and the ungrammatical use of "simple" negative in French.

In English, "I did nothing this morning" is correct, while "I didn't
do nothing this morning" is considered incorrect though not uncommon in
"uneducated" speech.

In French, "ne ... rien" (and similar constructions) is strictly and
rigidly enforced in the official grammar of the language. Therefore
"Je n'ai rien fait ce matin" is the only strictly correct form.

Nevertheless, in casual speech, even by educated people, the form
"J'ai rien fait ce matin" occurs quite frequently.

Ted.

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E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: 15-Sep-99                                       Time: 10:02:26
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Double negative [E]

I don't see why British English should be left off the list, but I think a
distinction may have to be made between a fixed use of the double negative
(if I have understood the Afrikaans example properly) and the simple
addition (or multiplication) of negatives in BrE, eg "I ain't never done
nothin' like that to nobody, nohow!"

I'm not sure that French has a double negative, at least if forms like "ne
... rien" are being referred to. The second element of such pairs originally
had a purely positive meaning ("rien" derives from Latin "rem", "thing" )
and only the "ne" created the negative sense. But the negative sense became
attached to the second word, which can now have a negative sense without
"ne".  (Some words have both senses, eg "jamais".) We ought therefore to see
"ne .. rien" and "rien" as two forms of the negative, rather than the former
being a double negative.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: wim kotze [wimkotze at hotmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Double negative" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 14.SEP.1999 (05)

Dankie, Laaglanders, vir julle reaksie op my vraag aangaande die dubbele
ontkenning. Ek het beslis baie geleer wat ek NIE voorheen geweet het NIE.

(Thank you, Lowlanders, for your response on my question concerning the
double negation. I certainly learnt a lot which I haven't known before. )

It sure ain't no co-incidence that I used a double negative above.
Where I have found all the responses most interesting, it was only the
Brabantish that Roger quoted that rang familiar to the use in Afrikaans that
I was referring to. The (requoted underneath) syntax of those (requoted
below) corresponds so closely to that of Afrikaans that it is highly
inconceivable to deny the relationship. Not 100% the same, though. Please
take a look at my comments after the quote.

3. Brabantish (not general, but in the Aarschot area)
>Ik heb _niemand_  _niet_ gezien _niet_
>Daar zal _niemand_ _niet_ komen _nie_
>Na acht uur laten de gendarmen hier _niemand_ _niet_ meer passeren _nie_.
>Die oude vent is nog _nooit_ _niet_ ziek geweest _nie_. (1)
>Hij wil _geen_ soep _niet_ meer eten _nie_. (2)
>_Neen_, de deur is _niet_ toe _nie_.
>Is dat _niet_ waar _nie_. (3)

I suspect that the shades of meaning differ between the quotes above, and
Afrikaans. To clarify this, I am going to translate the numbered sentences
in English, as if they were Afrikaans. Can anyone perhaps also supply the
correct translations from Aarschot Brabantish ? I suspect that (1) and (2)
have quite the opposite meanings. If that is true, then speakers of the two
tongues could really get confused should they ever meet (hypothetically
speaking of course, since I don't know if the given form of Brabantish is
still in use)

1) The old guy has never not being ill. (ie he has never been healthy)
(the occurrences of three negations "nooit", "niet" & "nie" would revert the
meaning to affirm that the guy was always ill, to Afrikaans speakers)
2) He doesn't not want to eat any soup (ie whenever he sees soup, he has to
eat it, here again, "geen" counts as an added negative, which negates the
meaning of the double negative)
3) Isn't that true ? (I've got a a feeling the meaning here is the same in
both tongues)

Thanks Ian for the Ulster Scots contribution. Thanks also to Ron and above
all for way you handle the mailing list !

groete uit Suid-Afrika,

Wim

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