LL-L: "Language codes" LOWLANDS-L, 13.APR.2000 (02) [E]

Thu Apr 13 16:32:24 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.APR.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language codes

Dear Lowlanders,

Below please find, for your information, a copy of a continuation of the
debate regarding the absence of an ISO code for online communication in Low
Saxon/Low German.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

***

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "R. F. Hahn" <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: New ISO 639-2 code (fwd)
To: Michael Everson <everson at egt.ie>

Michael,

(1) There is no real difference between "Low German" and "Low Saxon,"
though unfortunately some people want to pretend that there is such a
difference.  We are talking about the same language, the direct
descendant of Old Saxon which used to call itself "saksysch" (Saxon)
etc.  The "Low German" thing is a result of Germanization attempts on
German-administered soil, i.e., declaring that it is a part of German
and thus denying its separate language status and the special
considerations afforded an official language.  However, also a minority
of German linguists refer to it as "Low Saxon" as a technical term (the
Saxon language of the Lowlands or Low Countries, as opposed to "Saxon,"
the German dialects of the state of Saxony).  "Low Saxon" is the proper
name for the dialects of the same language used on the Netherlands side
of the border, i.e., in the eastern parts of the Netherlands.  It is
the catch-all name for dialects that are usually named after their
regions; e.g., "Tweants" of Twente, "Dreants" of Drente,
"Stellingwarfs" of the Stellingwerven, etc.  Speakers on the
Netherlands side are quite aware of their dialects belonging to the
same language with the dialects in Northern Germany, though many will
refer to the latter as "Low German" to distinguish them as
German-dominated and -influenced dialects.  Unfortunately, most
speakers in Germany don't even know about the dialects in the
Netherlands, and now that both "Low German" and "Low Saxon" are
officially recognized even many activists and institutions in Germany
pretend that the dialects in the Netherlands constitute a separate
language, as though the language abruptly ended at the border.  As you
can see, it's a complicated situation in a transitional period.
Mennonite Low German ("Plautdietsch"), used especially in Siberia,
Central Asia and in the Americas (being an important minority language
of Canada) is a dialect group of the same language.

(2) So far, there is no standard variety of the language and no
standard orthography either.  The dialects in Germany tend to be
written using German-based orthographies losely following
recommendations of various schools.  Many use "e" and "ö" with ogonek
(the latter thus being language-specific) to distinguish long
monophthongs from dipthongs.  This is pretty much standard in "better"
and scientific publications, but many writers do not use these letters.
 On the Netherlands side they base their orthographies on Dutch
standards and add to these "ö" and sometimes "ä".

(3) I do feel very strongly that we need a language code for the
language, such as "ND" or "NS", and I know that virtually all users of
the language share this feeling.  This came out very clearly when we
discussed this on Lowlands-L, and since then I have received supportive
messages from many other users of the language.  After all, it *is* a
legitimate, officially recognized language with around 10 million
users, thus, in terms of number of speakers, it is more "important"
than Danish, Norwegian, Faroese and Icelandic.  Therefore, it deserves
the same considerations as do all other Germanic languages.  Just
because it is not a nationally dominant language should not lead us to
neglect it within this context, and we don't neglect minority and
regional languages such as Catalan, Galician, Yiddish, Uyghur, Bashkir,
etc.  There is a sizeable and fast-growing number of LG/LS web
publications.  I expect a bit of an explosion now that access to the
Internet is finally becoming generally attainable and popular in
Germany.  Thus, the time has come where we need to be able to
specifically mark and search for web publications in this language.
Assigning it a code is a must.

Please feel free to contact me if you need further information.

Thanks for the great work you are doing.

Regards,

Reinhard "Ron" Hahn
Seattle, USA

--- Michael Everson <everson at egt.ie> wrote:
> ISO 639-JAC: There is a discussion list for Low Germanic languages.
> See
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1615/rhahn/lowlands/
>
> To R. F. Hahn: I'm not sure what I think of the request to add an ISO
> 639
> code for "Low German". The question is, what is the difference
> between Low
> Saxon and Low German and how many codes do we need for Germanic
> languages?
>
> Ar 15:16 -0400 2000-04-12, scríobh Rebecca S. Guenther:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:36:19 -0500 (EST)
> >From: Rebecca S. Guenther <rgue at loc.gov>
> >To: isojac at loc.gov
> >Subject: New ISO 639-2 code (fwd)
> >
> >Here is our first formal request using the Web form. We did discuss
> this
> >at our meeting and some research needs to be done.
> >
> >This is how the form gets sent in an email. I think you can figure
> out
> >what the labels are on the form (e.g. lang_in_eng=Language in
> English).
> >
> >As ISO 639-2/RA I've analyzed the request, which meets the criteria
> in
> >terms of sufficient number of documents. To be consistent with the
> rule to
> >use a code based on the vernacular, I propose the use of "pld" and
> the
> >term German, Low (vernacular seems to be Plattdeutsch unless someone
> has
> >other information about that).
> >
> >Now I will work on developing some standard forms to send to the
> >requestor.
> >
> >Rebecca
> >
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:16:15 -0500
> >From: WWW server acct <www at rs7.loc.gov>
> >To: iso639-2 at loc.gov
> >Subject: New ISO 639-2 code
> >
> >This data was submitted on: Friday, March 24, 19100 at 16:16:15
> >
> >lang_in_eng = Low German
> >lang_in_fre =
> >ref_where_found_1 =
> >lang_in_vern =
> >ref_where_found_2 =
> >trans_lit =
> >
> >evidence = National Library of the Netherlands, Short Title
> Catalogue (50)
> >British Library, 17th Century German Imprints collection (43)
> >addinfo = Currently covered by ISO 639-2/B code "gem" (same 639-2/T
> code).
> >The UKMARC Bibliographic Format has established code "gml" for
> "German, Low".
> >That UKMARC code is represented in 50 STC-N and 43 BL-17th Cen.
> German MARC
> >records. RLG received those records for load to the RLG Hand Press
> Books
> >database in 1998. Because RLG did not wish to delay loading the
> records
> >while a new language code for Low German is under consideration, the
> "gml"
> >code was changed to "gem."  However, RLG will change the "gem" code
> in those
> >records to whatever code is assigned if this request for a new Low
> German
> >code is approved.
> >
> >request_addition = ISO 639-2 only
> >2_code_suggestion =
> >3_code_suggestion = gml
> >lang_in_eng_change =
> >lang_in_fre_change =
> >iso_639_2_b =
> >iso_639_2_t =
> >change_requested =
> >submit_name = Joe Altimus
> >submit_email = jaltimus at notes.rlg.org
> >submit_status = Analyzed bibliographic records containing the UKMARC
> "gml"
> >language code for Low
> >German, prior to load of records to RLG's Hand Press Books database.
> >If you have questions about the STC-N or BL documents, you may wish
> to
> >contact:
> >Jan Bos, National Library of the Netherlands, STC Office
> (jan.bos at konbib.nl)
> >Graham Nattrass, British Library (graham.nattrass at mail.bl.uk)
>
>
> Michael Everson  **  Everson Gunn Teoranta  **   http://www.egt.ie
> 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
> Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
> 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn;  Baile an Bhóthair;  Co. Átha Cliath; Éire

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