LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 05.AUG.2000 (01) [D/E]

Sat Aug 5 18:03:37 UTC 2000

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 05.AUG.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: Spelling, was Re: LL-L: "Standardization"

I have been wondering in the past why Ron prefers "orthography" in headers,
rather than "spelling". I think both are good English and both mean
(about?) the same. "Spelling" is also the word one uses in Dutch. I guess
in German it is rather "Rechtschreibung".
Did the Dutch borrow the word "spelling" from the UK or vice-versa?

Below what the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal) CDROM gives for
"spelling":

SPELLING, znw. vr. Mnl. spellinge. Van Spellen met -ing.
1) Voorspelling, voorzegging. || J. Wat dreef u naer Myceen te trecken na
uw ban? P. Apolloos spelling, VONDEL 11, 121. Toen riep de wichelaar:
Hoort, hoort myn spelling, ô godtvruchtige Latynen! ROTGANS, Poëzy 455. D.
Ik ... hoop dat gy noch dezen dag zult horen Dat u een gunstig lot is van
de Min beschoren. M. Zo deze spelling slechts een wenschlyke uitkomst
heeft, Ik ben de blyste mensch die in de werrelt leeft, V. EFFEN, Spect.
10, 232. Men deed voorheen van 's noodlots voorbestelling Aan onze
vaderstad een diergelijke spelling, BILD. 3, 305.
2) Wijze van spellen (in de bet. 6). || Nederlandsche Spellijnghe,
uutghesteld by vraghe ende andwoorde, duer Joas Lambrecht, Titel (aº.
1550). (Het) behaaght ... my beter by d'oude spelling te blyven, Kort Begr.

1, 37. Overmits wy in het drucken van dese Spelen ... doorgaens hebben
moeten volghen de speldinge ende uytspraeck van de oorspronckelijcke
gheschreven Copien der zelve, Vlaerd. Redenr.-bergh IV. UE. bezigheit leez'

jk tweemaels in uwen brief: eens ujt de spelling der woorden, ende eens ujt

het maxel der letteren en de swier hunner haeste, HOOFT, Br. 3, 251. Dat hy

een man zynde, die ervaren was in de zeden en tale des lants, my mededeelde

de regte spellinge veeler woorden, DE BRUYN, Reizen 2, 199 b. De heer N.
heeft zeer slecht gedaan met aan elk gemeentebestuur het recht te geven om
te bepalen, welke spelling de schoolmeester der plaats moet volgen,
WILLEMS, Br. 184. De Grondbeginselen der Nederlandsche Spelling. Ontwerp
der spelling voor het aanstaande Nederlandsch Woordenboek. Van wege de
Redactie bewerkt door L. A. Te Winkel, Titel (aº. 1863). (De) vele
twijfelingen en onzekerheden, die nog altijd in de spelling onzer
moedertaal bestaan, M. DE VRIES vóór L. A. TE WINKEL, Ontw. Spelling I. Te
rekenen van 1 Januarij e.k. zullen alle stukken die van de Departementen
van algemeen bestuur uitgaan, zooveel mogelijk in die spelling (t. w. die
van het Woordenboek) geschreven zijn, V. LYNDEN V. SANDENB. in Staatsbegr.
1883, I, blz. 12 b. Zoo praatten zij ... over ouwe en nieuwe spelling en
nog meer, V. LOOY, Jaapje 169.
Samenst. — Als eerste lid in Spellingbeginsel („De twee groote
spellingbeginselen — overeenstemming met de uitspraak en aanwijzing van de
afleiding en den oorspronkelijken vorm der woorden”, M. DE VRIES vóór L. A.

TE WINKEL, Ontw. Spelling II); -beweging (N. Taalg. 2, 315); -quaestie
(„Verschillende leden vroegen, hoe de Minister staat tegenover de
spellingquaestie”, Staatsbegr. 1920, Bijl. A, Va, 18, blz. 1 a); -stelsel
(„Het spellingstelsel te bepalen, dat in het Woordenboek zal worden
gevolgd,” M. DE VRIES vóór L. A. TE WINKEL, Ontw. Spelling I); -vraagstuk
(„De houding der Regeering in zake het spellingvraagstuk”, DE VISSER in
Hand. d. St.-Gener. 1919-'20, E. K., 250 b).

-- endquote
Regards,
Roger
r.thijs at ieee.org

----------

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: küern

Books about dialects / regional languages are clearly not in the hit parade
in Germany. Today I found, dumped completely "as new", in a "ramsj" (stock
liquidation, of German books today) book shop downtown Antwerp (for 5 USD):

J. Raub, Plattdeutsche Sprichwörter und Redensarten zwisschen Ruhr und
Lippe, Arschendorff Münster, 1976, ISBN 3-402-06448-0, xi + 332 pp., hard
cover bound.

It refers to the region:
".. beschränkt auf... den nördlichen Teil der alten Grafschaft Mark,
einschließlich der Grafschaft Dortmund und der Stadt und Abtei Essen."

I stopped at the word "küern":
Is küern a standard Low German variant for "talk"?

1365. Küern es kein Geld
1366. Hä küert as en Bauk
1367. Vüel Küern mäkt vüel Taulustern
1368. Dä hät guët küern, dä hät de Mule bi sik.
1369. Hä küert vüel, wann de Dag lang es.
1370. Hä küert sik in'n Knüpp (Knoten)
1372. Dau wat du wost, de Lü küert doch.
1373. Kâ küert as äm de Mule gewassen es.
1377. Lot ne küern, hä küert keine hunnert Johr män.
1378. Vi könnt wuol alle tehoupe singen, owwer nich alle tehoupe küern.
1379. Hâ küert messingsch
(Er spricht platt- und hochdeutsch durcheinander)
1380. Hä küert Platt met Knobbeln (met Striepen)
1381. Junge, lot dat Plattdütschküern sien, süß stäiht di de Buër im
Nacken.
(Herbede; Rat der Bauern an ihre Söhne, der zu einer Zeit an der Ruhr
aufkam, als dat Platdeutsche in den Städten weitgehend verdrängt war und
als bäuerisch angesehen wurde.)
1384. Se hät geküert, dat iähr de Mule schümen (schäumte).
1385. Hä küert sik de Mule fuëselig.
1389. Dat es ne Küerkunte.
(comment: in my dialect: Da's en babbelkont)
1402. Hä küert mi'n Knüpp in'n Buk.
1403 Du wost mi wuol en Düllen (en Dusen, en Knust, en Knüessel (alles =
Beule)) an'n Koppe küern.
(comment: in my West-Limburgish dialect: Dzji-e wilt mich zeker ee koet in
menne kop kalle (ee koet is a hole))
1404. Dä küert us alle dout.
1405. Dä küert mi mör (mürbe)
(in my dialect: Di-e kalt mich mörref (mörref is well-cooked))
1406. Dä küert äinen vam Piärd un sett sik söwwes drop.
(The i in Piärd is curious to me: in my dialect we let it also precede the
a, but we drop the r:
Dutch   / Limburgish (Vliermaal)
Paard/  Pjaad
Kers/           Kjoe-es
Vers/           Vjoe-es
aarde/          jaad
aardappel/      jattappel)
1407. Hä küert di ut'm Bedde un legt sik söwwes drin.

Variants:
spriäken

1371 Me maut de Lü spriäken loten, de Göise (Gänse) könnt et nich.

schnatern
1382. Se schnatert as de Göise.

quasseln
1386. Hä quasselt sik de Diärme ut et Lief (ut'm Balg) un wiër drin.
1400. Hä quasselt alls kort in klein.

etc. etc.

In Dutch we have "Koeterwaals" and "Koeteren": they may be linked to küern
(???)

Regards,

Roger
r.thijs at ieee.org

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Roger, Lowlanders,

You wrote:

> I have been wondering in the past why Ron prefers "orthography" in > headers,
> rather than "spelling". I think both are good English and both mean
> (about?) the same. "Spelling" is also the word one uses in Dutch. I guess
> in German it is rather "Rechtschreibung".

Most people may not see any difference between "orthography" and
"spelling."  To me there is a slight difference.  In "orthography" I
include both spelling and punctuation.  I use it to refer to the entire
*system* of representing speech graphically.  I can see that you could use
"spelling" like that too, but to me "spelling" refers more to the lettering
of words, singly or in a row, not so much or not at all rules of
punctuation.  Thus, I would say "The spelling of five of the words is
incorrect" rather than *"The orthography of five of the words is
incorrect."  I don't know if this is an idiosyncracy of mine.

German _Rechtschreibung_ literally denotes "correct writing," i.e.,
'(system of) (correct) spelling.'  Of course, it is being used do simply
denote 'spelling' or 'orthography,' but the underlying connotation is
"correct."  You can refer to the an orthographic system as _Schreibweise_
"way of writing," which does not necessarily imply "correct."

I don't think there is a Low Saxon (Low Saxon) cognate of German
_Rechtschreibung_, which may be food for thought (considering that the
language does not have a standard orthography).  In Germany we say
_Schrievwies'_ ['Sri:v,vi:.z] "way of writing."  I assume it is _spelling_
in Low Saxon of the Netherlands.  Correct?

> Is küern a standard Low German variant for "talk"?

No.

I assume by "standard" you mean "usual" or "wide-spread" in this case,
considering the fact that Low Saxon does not have a standard variety as
yet.

Words for 'to talk' divide the Low Saxon dialects into some sort of
groups.  _Küern_, _küren_, _küürn_, _küre_, etc., right away give away that
you speak a southwestern dialect.  The predominant word in Northern Low
Saxon is _snacken_ ['snak=N], which has also been borrowed by Danish as _at
snakke_, a less formal way of saying _at tale_ with the added component 'to
chat', just like Low Saxon _snacken_.  (I am assuming that Danish borrowed
it from Low Saxon and it wasn't the other way around).  In the northwestern
dialects, especially in those of Eastern Friesland, it is _praten_ (also
spelled _proten_, _proaten_ or _praoten_), like Dutch _praten_ and
Afrikaans _praat_.  And then there is _spreken_ ~ _spräken_ ['spre:k=N] ~
['sprE:k=N], which you find used more in Eastphalian and Eastern dialects.
The predominant way for 'to converse', 'to chat', 'to shoot the breeze' is
_klönen_ [klø:n:].  It has filtered into Northern German via Missingsch.
Then there is a great number of words denoting 'to talk' in different ways,
too many words to list in my answer to your question.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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