LL-L: "Names" LOWLANDS-L, 15.AUG.2000 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.AUG.2000 (15) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Names

Ron wrote:

>"Netherlands" only has the adjective "Dutch", which some people understand
as referring only to the Hollandic ethnicity.  Obviously, something like
"Netherlandic" is called for. .....<

Who are these "people"? I suggest that most English-speakers take the word
to refer to the nationality of the person, not their ethnicity. It's not a
question of ignorance or not caring but of talking about something
different. Are French speakers (I tactfully avoid saying "French people")
being more "tactful" when they say "néerlandais"?

Yes, I do find this attitude very "odd".

>When I know that someone is a citizen of Germany but is ethnically not
German I acknowledge this, context permitting, by saying things like _an
ethnically Danish German citizen_, _a Frisian from Germany_, _a German Rom_
or _a German of Sorbian ethnicity_, _a German of Turkish background_ (if I
know that this Turkish person has German citizenship). <

Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to use these designations?
It must be borne in mind that this thing cuts both ways. It may be very
obvious that a British person is of Indian or Afro-Caribbean or Chinese
origin but to deliberately _avoid _ calling them English, Scots, Welsh,
Irish (or even Cornish) may be considered quite insulting, as may
insistently adding a qualifier to "British". In the Nazi period Jews were
said not to be Germans. Start adding "Jewish" to "German" and you're going
to be misunderstood.

Concerning Criostoir's "idiosyncracies", it's not just Americans (North
Americans? English-speaking citizens of the United States of America?) who
use the term "England" for the UK. German speakers normally use "England"
for both Great Britain and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland, and one can see why: "Wir fahren gegen das Vereinigte Königreich
Großbritannien und Nordirland" lacks a certain pithiness. If one is talking
as a linguist then the question has to be "What does a word mean to the
people who use it?" I suggest that "Britain", mirroring the term "British",
is used by the majority (ie more than half) of BE speakers to mean "United
Kingdom". "Great Britain" is used either in the same sense or in its
*strict* legal sense and the context determines which.

It may be that many Americans (see qualifications above) have very little
idea about the geography of the UK. So what? It was being argued here not
long ago that ordinary people have better things to do with their time than
accumulate useless knowledge. Why learn about a country which (a) doesn't
exist and (b) is part of an entity which the World Almanac correctly says is
"slightly smaller than Oregon"?

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Names

> Who are these "people"?

They did seem like real people when I checked.  In fact, the ones I've last
heard express the *preference* not to be called Dutch were Frisians.  I think
they do qualify as people.

> Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to use these > > designations?

I've already answered that in my reply to Floor.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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