LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 27.AUG.2000 (06) [S]

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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 22.AUG.2000 (09) [S]

At 17:22 22/08/00 -0700, Andy Eagle wrate:
>Colin, as ye say the "written Scots in this book is intended as a vehicle
>for presenting
>and explaining the *spoken* material...", but shuirlie, wad spellins that
>pits ower the pronunciation the nou, no be mair better nor aulder spellins

>that disna? Speciallie whaur the weel-kent 'trans dialect' spellins lik
>beuk, teuk, heuk, deuk, leuk etc. daes this awfu weel.

John Tait wrate:

>I some think ye'r missin the pynt here, Colin. It's no juist at we dinna
>like the SNDA spellins - as gin personal preference wis aa at maitered -
>it's the fact at presentin spoken Scots is juist exactly whit thay dinna
>(canna? winna?) dae.

Andy and John's baith makkin guid pints here. John can bide assure't that
A'm nae missin the pint, an whit A wrate aboot him "nae likin" the
SNDA's weys o spellin wisna wi the norie that aw that maittert is
personal likes an dislikes. A ken fine that the maitter gangs faur
ayont that.

Ma ain feelin aboot the best wey tae spell Scots (an this is a
principle, nae a seistem) is that pittin ower the
pronoonciation is nae tap o the list o priorities. Thon wad
be a spellin seistem mair for *lairners* nor for *native speikers*:
the ettle o a spellin seistem for native speikers wad be tae gar
the readers recognise wirds, as easy as can be duin, that they
ken hoo tae pronoonce *awready* as pairt o their ain tongue.

A pit this tae the SNDA masel, twa year syne an mair, an A'll hing
a message fae me tae Iseabail MacLeod on tae the end o this, sae's
ye'll see whit A mean. A hope ye'll aw forgie ma ill-yuise o the
wird "screive": that wis afore A kent better.

A think in the hinner end, the problem is mainlie wi the SNDA. Ma
suggestion tae fowk lik Andy an John wad be tae involve themsels
in it mair: efter aw, it's a voluntarie associe an the heid-anes
is accoontable tae the members ilka year at the AGM. A canna dae
this masel, cause A dinna hae the theoretical grip o the haill
subject that they hae.

Colin Wilson.

[copy follas, o an e-mail o 22/02/98 fae me tae Iseabail MacLeod.
 The Scots is mine, the English is Iseabail MacLeod's fae an aerlier
 message.]

>At 17:27 11/02/98 +0000, ye screived:
>
>>Dear Colin
>>          many thanks for your email. We were very glad to know that you
>>are at least considering using SNDA spelling in your new book. The
>>Concise English-Scots Dictionary was the first dictionary in which we
>>tried to tackle the (well-nigh impossible) problem of Scots spelling and
>>the policy was, broadly, to choose spelling forms which:
>> a) are most likely to elicit the modern pronunciation (but which
>>pronunciation? you may well ask);
>
>Thon tae me is a richt interestin thing tae say, an A think it's ane that
>heilichts the odds atween the pints o view o the Scots speiker an the
>non-speiker. Ye see, A dinna see the role o spellin as bein tae "elicit
>pronunciation". Thon seems tae hae as its stertin-pint a picter o fowk
>tyauvin tae read wirds in a tongue that they dinna ken. A dinna think
>thon's a paradigm that's gaun tae sairve us weel.
>
>Wi ivverie ither leid spelt wi an alphabet (nae aw leids is), spellin
>guides fowk intae recogneisin wirds that they ken awready, an *ken* hoo
>tae pronoonce fae haein yuised them as pairt o their ain tongue. The
>best wey tae spell a wird is the wey that (a) fowk can recogneise
quickest,
>an (b) is easiest mindit whan bairns is lairnin tae screive. A dinna think

>that guidin fowk that disna ken Scots as tae hoo tae pronoonce it, shid be

>heich on the leet as a feerin as tae whit's a guid spellin an whit's nae.
>The needs o lairners is important, bit they're nae awthing.
>
>>As to the Scots Spellin Comatee, we are certainly listening to what they
>>are saying and will continue to consider alterations to individual
>>words. But we are not happy about the aim to create a standard Scots
>>quickly, and in particular about the use of different spellings for
>>words shared with English.One of our main aims is to help to spread the
>>use of Scots more widely in the community and we feel that making it as
>>different as possible from English is counter-productive to this aim.
>
>Weel, A'm wi ye wi regaird tae the ettle, bit in a wey A'm aye surpreised
>tae read this, an A'll tell ye whit wey. Tae stert wi, fae the dealins
>A'v haen wi the Scots Spellin Comatee, it's nivver leukit tae me lik
>makkin Scots "as different as possible from English" wis ivver ane o
>their ettles. Ye'v misonerstuid them gin ye think thon's whit they're
>efter. Ay, they wad want tae spell wirds that's the same as in English,
>in a different wey fae in English - WHAN IT WAD BE FITTIN TAE DAE IT
>- bit nae on the grunds that you're thinkin o.
>
>The ither wey A'm surpreised is that the SNDA's dictionars his a guid
wheen
>o spellins that seems tae be different jist for the sake o bein different
-
>"baud", "fush", "agane", "doacter", "fer", an sae on. Whit's mair, whaur
>the "purists" spells wirds the same as English in a different wey, there's

>a seistem ahint it. The wee leet o wirds abuin seems tae be spelt jist
>aff the tap o somebodie's heid.
>
>A'm aw for "spreading the use of Scots more widely in the community"
>bit a canna think o onie ither leid that's spelt in a wey that hauds
>thon ower an abuin the need o native speikers for a wycelik spellin
>o their ain tongue.
>
>> We see why the purists want to do this, but we regard it as
>>backward-looking and not helpful to the Scots-language cause.
>
>A'm sorry, bit A dinna see hoo it helps at aw tae miscaw fowk. A ken
>there's waur things ye cud hae cawd them nor "purists", bit it's still
>nae helpfu whan we're aw on the same side, or shid aw be.
>
>As tae "backward-looking" - thon staunds as a creiticism jist gin
>ye trew that aw cheinge is fordelsome. Oniewey, A canna see hoo ye cud
>richtlie caw them hinnart-leukin, seein as (sae faur as I can see oniewey)

>their reenge o foresicht is weel ayont the SNDA's.
>
>> People are
>>alas lazy and if the language is made to look too unfamiliar, they will
>>just switch off.  No point in just preaching to the converted.
>
>Ay, bit agane the premise o this is fowk jist readin Scots in an aff-luif
>kin o wey. Dae ye nae think it wad be better tae envizzie bairns at the
>scuil, lairnin Scots as their first gait tae leiteracie? Whit wad be
>hinnart-leukin aboot thon?
>
>>These are all very difficult problems and we can see no easy solutions.
>>We'd be glad to discuss further with you.
>
>Thank ye, an A'm gled tae hae taen the tid tae dae jist thon.
>
>Wi richt guidwull till ye,
>
>Colin Wilson.

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