LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 28.AUG.2000 (06) [S]
Lowlands-L
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L O W L A N D S - L * 28.AUG.2000 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 27.AUG.2000 (06) [S]
Colin wrate:
> Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 22.AUG.2000 (09) [S]
>
> At 17:22 22/08/00 -0700, Andy Eagle wrate:
> >Colin, as ye say the "written Scots in this book is intended as a
vehicle
> >for presenting
> >and explaining the *spoken* material...", but shuirlie, wad spellins
that
> >pits ower the pronunciation the nou, no be mair better nor aulder
spellins
>
> >that disna? Speciallie whaur the weel-kent 'trans dialect' spellins lik
> >beuk, teuk, heuk, deuk, leuk etc. daes this awfu weel.
>
> John Tait wrate:
>
> >I some think ye'r missin the pynt here, Colin. It's no juist at we dinna
> >like the SNDA spellins - as gin personal preference wis aa at maitered -
> >it's the fact at presentin spoken Scots is juist exactly whit thay dinna
> >(canna? winna?) dae.
>
> Andy and John's baith makkin guid pints here. John can bide assure't that
> A'm nae missin the pint, an whit A wrate aboot him "nae likin" the
> SNDA's weys o spellin wisna wi the norie that aw that maittert is
> personal likes an dislikes. A ken fine that the maitter gangs faur
> ayont that.
>
> Ma ain feelin aboot the best wey tae spell Scots (an this is a
> principle, nae a seistem) is that pittin ower the
> pronoonciation is nae tap o the list o priorities. Thon wad
> be a spellin seistem mair for *lairners* nor for *native speikers*:
> the ettle o a spellin seistem for native speikers wad be tae gar
> the readers recognise wirds, as easy as can be duin, that they
> ken hoo tae pronoonce *awready* as pairt o their ain tongue.
The problem wi spellin is aft akis o the sindrie strynds o Scots
pronounces
monie wirds different.
A masel hiv duin a load o research intae this akis o the want o maiter that
can eith be fund the nou.
Dae fowk conseeder Scots tae be 'ae' langage or a hatter o dialects?
Shoud it be wrutten mair or less the 'ae' wey or in a kin o 'ma ain dialect
pseudo phonetics' foondit on the letter-soond representations o Standard
(Scottish) English?
Tae me, the ettle o onie spellin seestem shoud be tae represent aa dialects
wi the ae seestem. The pronounciation differs (maistlins vouel soonds) is
for ordinar raiglar. Thou A masel is willint tae thole a puckle spellin
differs whaur a polyphonemic seestem braks doun. e.g. few -fyow, micht -
mith, murder - murther, boak, bowk, folk - fowk, wame - wyme etc. Thare's
no
ower monie o thaim sae whan fowk haes come ower siclike aft eneuch it
shoudna be a problem. Aa thay are is 'regional merkers' juist like ye hae
atween American an British English (an ither varieties forby).
O course the problem is that monie native speakers isna leeterate in Scots,
or mair tae the pynt dinna hae muckle ken o some o the mair kenspeckle weys
that Scots haes tradeetionally been wrutten. Its akis o this want o ken
that
sic 'pseudo phonetic' spellins is aye winnin throu.
Wi lairners ye hae the problem o whit dialect ye're gaun tae lair - for
want
o a Scots RP. But here it mair eith tae pit ower a 'staundart polyphonemic
seestem'.
Wi native speakers ye need tae lair thaim hou the 'transdialect'
(polyphonemic) spellins fits thair ain dialect. Afore-haund whit's nott it
general concensus amang thaim that haes influence in sic maiters, i.e. The
SNDA, SLRC, SLA etc. an thaim that's furthsettin maiter (in Scots) for
Schuils. It's in the schuils whaur the best potential for staiblishin a
'staundart' ligs.
A think thaim that's thirlt tae the concept o lairnin bairns tae 'juist
write the wey ye speak - foondit on the letter-soond representations o
Standard (Scottish) English' is wirkin for (mebbies no wi intent) thaim
that
wants tae 'divide an rule'. It mairginalizes Scots tae a hatter o dialects
an fowk gits the 'A speak Ayrshire...Lothian...Doric' seendrome intae thair
heids an no 'A speak Scots wi an Ayrshire...Lothian...Doric accent'. Scots
bides a couthie hamelt wey o speakin an isna a naitional leid. Thon leads
tae Scots haein nae mensefu status an as a result isna reallie guid for
ocht
sae why fash yersel wi't?
Mair an mair is comin fae the eddication fraternity anent the 'importance'
o
Scots as pairt o wir cultural heirskip but whan ye speir at thae fowk whit
thay're daein aboot it - the repone is aye in Inglis an A aft hae the
impression thay're makkin mair o a mill nor a kirk o't.
Teachers haes tae be trained, siclike taks time an siller, Whit's the
mercat
value o leeteracy in Scots? 0p? Eddicational maiterials haes tae be
makkit - mair siller. Whit's mair important - computer studies, business
ken
or gien fowk pride an ken o thair ain tung? Thaim that's maks thir
deceesions for ordinar dinna speak Scots, an dinna ken muckle aboot it.
The mercat value o bairns (an fowk in general) haein a heich sel-respect is
wirth mair nor the cost o beuks etc. Fowk that believes in thirsels can
muive muntains, an stairt tae create the walth ilka kintra needs. Fowk wi
nae sel-respekt that's been telt thair cultur/langage is o nae uiss nor
merit will suin stairt tae believe that thay're nae guid for ocht. Giein a
heize tae fowk's sel-respect is an eydent wey o betterin 'social
inclusion' - something that thae 'Inglis speakin leeberals' is aye
demandin.
Tho monie o thaim aye still haes the norrie in thair heids that tae be
'socially includit' ye maun speak Inglis an nocht else. Thare's monie a
bodie on this leet that writes an (A tak it) speaks Inglis athoot haein tae
drap thair ain mither tung. Dae schuils in the Netherlands, Germany,
Belguim, Denmark etc, tell bairns thay maun tak nae tent tae thair ain
leids
akis Inglis is mair important? Haivers. Ye dinna need tae drap yer ain tung
for tae lairn Inglis. An Inglis shoud be teacht, its a gey an important
warld langage.
A'v gaen a bittie aff the padd here but A juist wantit tae lat it oot.
> A pit this tae the SNDA masel, twa year syne an mair, an A'll hing
> a message fae me tae Iseabail MacLeod on tae the end o this, sae's
> ye'll see whit A mean. A hope ye'll aw forgie ma ill-yuise o the
> wird "screive": that wis afore A kent better.
>
> A think in the hinner end, the problem is mainlie wi the SNDA. Ma
> suggestion tae fowk lik Andy an John wad be tae involve themsels
> in it mair: efter aw, it's a voluntarie associe an the heid-anes
> is accoontable tae the members ilka year at the AGM. A canna dae
> this masel, cause A dinna hae the theoretical grip o the haill
> subject that they hae.
>
Last year A sent the SNDA ma thochties anent thair
"Recommendations for writing, editing and transcribing Scots
SNDA et al - March 1999
For some centuries Scots has been more spoken than written, but with the
new
Scottish parliament and greater awareness of Scotland's linguistic
heritage,
there is likely to be an increasing need to write in Scots in a variety of
contexts. The following is a brief summary of the main issues encountered
by
anyone writing, editing or transcribing modern Scots; more information on
the points mentioned can be found in the SNDA publications listed below.
This document is intended as an ongoing project; we will be adding to these
notes in the future and welcome any comments or suggestions for future
versions of the document (see contact address at the end)."
A maun admeet that A wad gang alang wi maist o't, but thay war aye still
recommendin variants e.g. carefu/carefae Whit for no carefie/carefy an aa?
A
o coorse way say juist uise carefu akis that is whit the wird is CARE+FU,
*carefae an *carefie is juist dialect pronounciations.
Thare's a puckle ither raivelments A pyntit oot an aa. A winna gang intae
that here but gin oniebodie's interestit see's a mailie.
A did ance read a trascreeption o a debate in the (Scots) Pairlament. 'Gaun
tae' wis wrutten *gaunnae. A niver seen 'Going to' wrutten 'Gonna' tho A
wad
that ae bodie or anither said it siclike. Ance mair presentin Scots as a
couthie hamelt wey o speakin an no a 'richt' langage.
>
> [copy follas, o an e-mail o 22/02/98 fae me tae Iseabail MacLeod.
> The Scots is mine, the English is Iseabail MacLeod's fae an aerlier
> message.]
>
> >At 17:27 11/02/98 +0000, ye screived:
> >
> >>Dear Colin
> >> many thanks for your email. We were very glad to know that
you
> >>are at least considering using SNDA spelling in your new book. The
> >>Concise English-Scots Dictionary was the first dictionary in which we
> >>tried to tackle the (well-nigh impossible) problem of Scots spelling
and
> >>the policy was, broadly, to choose spelling forms which:
> >> a) are most likely to elicit the modern pronunciation (but which
> >>pronunciation? you may well ask);
> >
> >Thon tae me is a richt interestin thing tae say, an A think it's ane
that
> >heilichts the odds atween the pints o view o the Scots speiker an the
> >non-speiker. Ye see, A dinna see the role o spellin as bein tae "elicit
> >pronunciation". Thon seems tae hae as its stertin-pint a picter o fowk
> >tyauvin tae read wirds in a tongue that they dinna ken. A dinna think
> >thon's a paradigm that's gaun tae sairve us weel.
A gree wi Colin here "elicit pronunciation" - i.e write Scots as 'ma ain
dialect pseudo phonetics' foondit on the letter-soond representations o
Standard (Scottish) English? Gyte. Sae Scots is spellt in a wey that a non-
native speaker wi A ken o staundart Inglis micht come oot wi a
pronunciation
that bichance micht juist resemble ane or anither bodie's dialect o Scots.
> >Wi ivverie ither leid spelt wi an alphabet (nae aw leids is), spellin
> >guides fowk intae recogneisin wirds that they ken awready, an *ken* hoo
> >tae pronoonce fae haein yuised them as pairt o their ain tongue. The
> >best wey tae spell a wird is the wey that (a) fowk can recogneise
> quickest,
> >an (b) is easiest mindit whan bairns is lairnin tae screive. A dinna
think
>
> >that guidin fowk that disna ken Scots as tae hoo tae pronoonce it, shid
be
>
> >heich on the leet as a feerin as tae whit's a guid spellin an whit's
nae.
> >The needs o lairners is important, bit they're nae awthing.
Ay! Guidin fowk hou tae pronounce Scots (Whit dialect?) bi writin 'pseudo
phonetics'.
> >>As to the Scots Spellin Comatee, we are certainly listening to what
they
> >>are saying and will continue to consider alterations to individual
> >>words. But we are not happy about the aim to create a standard Scots
> >>quickly, and in particular about the use of different spellings for
> >>words shared with English.One of our main aims is to help to spread the
> >>use of Scots more widely in the community and we feel that making it as
> >>different as possible from English is counter-productive to this aim.
A wis on thon Comatee. A didna think we wis ettlin tae "create a standard
Scots
quickly" Tae me it wis mair an analysis o whit we hae the nou an hou tae
mak
it mair raiglar an polyphonemic.
Syne tae lat aabodie that wis interestit comment on wir ootcome sae it
micht
coud be bettert mair. (see Lallans 56 Voar 2000)
Tho some bodies did resign akis whit thay war proponin wisna gaun tae gang
faur unner sicklike constraints.
A winna say MUKKIL aboot that nor the uiss o áccènts.
A certies wisna ettlin tae mak it "as different as possible from English"
The wey A'm writin nou is foondit (tae the maist pairt) on whit the Comatee
wis ettlin at. Dis it leuk "as different as possible from English" ?
> >Weel, A'm wi ye wi regaird tae the ettle, bit in a wey A'm aye
surpreised
> >tae read this, an A'll tell ye whit wey. Tae stert wi, fae the dealins
> >A'v haen wi the Scots Spellin Comatee, it's nivver leukit tae me lik
> >makkin Scots "as different as possible from English" wis ivver ane o
> >their ettles. Ye'v misonerstuid them gin ye think thon's whit they're
> >efter. Ay, they wad want tae spell wirds that's the same as in English,
> >in a different wey fae in English - WHAN IT WAD BE FITTIN TAE DAE IT
> >- bit nae on the grunds that you're thinkin o.
Ay - ye seem tae hae unnerstuid whit we war at. Sic wirds, gin A mynd
richt,
wis 'strenth', 'lenth' an 'tung' an mebbies 'wird' etc. tho A coud thole
'word' an aa.
> >The ither wey A'm surpreised is that the SNDA's dictionars his a guid
> wheen
> >o spellins that seems tae be different jist for the sake o bein
different
> -
> >"baud", "fush", "agane", "doacter", "fer", an sae on. Whit's mair, whaur
> >the "purists" spells wirds the same as English in a different wey,
there's
>
> >a seistem ahint it. The wee leet o wirds abuin seems tae be spelt jist
> >aff the tap o somebodie's heid.
Firstlins A wad sinder atween the SNDA dictionars afore a gie ma bawbie's
wirth. The CSD records uissage. Gin fowk hae written as gien abuin an it's
recordit that's aaricht wi me. Its whan ye hae reccomends lik in the SSD
English tae Scots bittie. Baud, fush, again, doacter wis reccommendit. A
wad
write bad, fish, again an doctor. A dinna ken whit 'fur' is - a jalouse
'for'.
The SNDA contradictin thair nane sels "making it as different as possible
from English is counter-productive to this aim."
> >A'm aw for "spreading the use of Scots more widely in the community"
> >bit a canna think o onie ither leid that's spelt in a wey that hauds
> >thon ower an abuin the need o native speikers for a wycelik spellin
> >o their ain tongue.
A canna think on ane aither.
> >> We see why the purists want to do this, but we regard it as
> >>backward-looking and not helpful to the Scots-language cause.
Whit's a 'purist'? A jalouse thay mean fowk that wants tae haud wi middle
Scots spellin conventions.
Thare's certies no monie o thaim aboot. Quhar ar thai all nou? A gree here,
auld farant spellins that maist naebodie wad recogneeze isna muckle uiss.
> >A'm sorry, bit A dinna see hoo it helps at aw tae miscaw fowk. A ken
> >there's waur things ye cud hae cawd them nor "purists", bit it's still
> >nae helpfu whan we're aw on the same side, or shid aw be.
> >
> >As tae "backward-looking" - thon staunds as a creiticism jist gin
> >ye trew that aw cheinge is fordelsome. Oniewey, A canna see hoo ye cud
> >richtlie caw them hinnart-leukin, seein as (sae faur as I can see
oniewey)
>
> >their reenge o foresicht is weel ayont the SNDA's.
> >
> >> People are
> >>alas lazy and if the language is made to look too unfamiliar, they will
> >>just switch off. No point in just preaching to the converted.
> >
> >Ay, bit agane the premise o this is fowk jist readin Scots in an
aff-luif
> >kin o wey. Dae ye nae think it wad be better tae envizzie bairns at the
> >scuil, lairnin Scots as their first gait tae leiteracie? Whit wad be
> >hinnart-leukin aboot thon?
> >
> >>These are all very difficult problems and we can see no easy solutions.
> >>We'd be glad to discuss further with you.
Thae problems is onlie sae difficult as ye mak thaim. Nae easy solutions?
Is
the wey A (an monie mair forby) write Scots difficult?
"I rest my case"
Andy
For mair anent spellins an dialect see www.scots-online.org/grammar
sneck on Pronunciation an Orthography
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