LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 30.AUG.2000 (01) [S]

Wed Aug 30 14:32:14 UTC 2000

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 28.AUG.2000 (08) [S]

Sandy wrate:
> Subject: "Standardization"
>
> > Thae problems is onlie sae difficult as ye mak thaim. Nae easy
> solutions?
> > Is
> > the wey A (an monie mair forby) write Scots difficult?
>
> Andy, the wey you (an mony mair forby) writes Scots _is_ difficult.
> What is't that gars enthusiasts pit a -ie at the end o vernear every
> wird insteed o -y? A'v read the bit on yer site aboot spellin an
> altho ye gie twaethree different weys o spellin this kin o thing,
> ye dinna gie ony raeson for ony o them, ither than that it's
> "traditional" - but this is a sicht mair "16th century traditional"
> than onything that wad concern us.
>
> This micht seem a bit o a niffle, but A'm uised wi lattin ma folk
> see different kins o printit Scots an A ken that the'r naething a
> ordnar Scots spaeker finnds mair aff-pittin than leukin at a page
> o "enthusiast" Scots an seein that the spellin's obviously based
> on the kin o writin system they learned at the schuil, an yet every
> twaethree wirds haes been chainged ti mak it different for nae guid
> raeson they can see. Whiles a body could be forgien for leukin at
> "late 20th century" Scots an comin ti the conclusion that Scots is
> little mair nor English spelt wi twice as mony letters! It's this
> kin o spellin that jaups the hale page and scomfishes Scots as a
> langage that its spaekers can recognise as their ain, obscures the
> fact o what different it raelly is fae English.
>
> Can you or ony ither enthusiast or academic gie me ae guid raeson
> for writin -ie at the end o aa thae wirds? Dinna say the Makars
> did it - that's irrelevant nou. Dinna say they did it in the 18th
> Century - they wis aa inconsistent aboot it. Dinna say the Victorian
> revivalists did it - they didna.
>
> Ae guid raeson for makkin yer written Scots haurder nor it haes ti be?
>
> Nou Andy, yer Scots orthography is aboot as guid as it can be in a
> traditional system - nae surprise considerin the time ye'v pit inti
> investigatin this kin o thing. Ma ain spellin is likely shot throu
> wi things that wis first thocht on bi yersel, even tho it wis John
> Magnus tocht me maist things, sae A canna ken what anes is yours!
> But the ar this ae thing that ye hinna lat lowss o that's shot aa
> throu yer ain writin an gars ordnar readers grue. Sae A'm settin
> ye a challenge here - _aither_ chainge this ae thing in yer ain
> writin ti mak it aa mair kenspeckle ti the ordnar Scots spaeker,
> _or_ convince me o a raeson ti chainge ma ain!

A dout thare's verra little in the wey A write that A coud cry ma ain.
Maist aathing haes kythed afore. Ma main ettle is tae be conseestant.
An A'm fair siccar A'll no convince ye tae chynge yer wey o writin but A'll
gie ye ma raisons for gaun ma gate.

Nou tae the -ie. A'v warselt a lang time wi this ane, e'en efter A decidit
tae gang for -ie A wisna 100% wun ower.

Whan A wis leukin in tae the maiter o -ie or -y, a gaed through the SSD an
compeart aa adjectives an adverbs wi -ie or-y endins.
A coudna finnd rhyme nor raison ahint whit for some wis spellt -y on
ithers -ie. (A tak aa diminutives tae be wrutten -ie.)
It wisna ocht adae wi etymology. Tho A jaloused that wirds that comes ower
as 'parteeclar' tae Scots wis maistlins wrutten wi -ie.
An monie latinate wirds wi -y.  For tae be conseestant A juist decidit
on -ie. Tae me 'mair' Scots nor the English -y.  A purely 'ideological'
deceesion.
A'm aye still sweir tae uise -ie in latinate vocabular, but A wadna denee
that A whiles micht dae.

Yer airgiement that -ie scomfishes monie fowk is certies a guid ane, an A
canna denee that.

Whit wad interest me is hou ye gang aboot walin atween -ie an -y.
Is the SSD variation atween -ie an -y something we shoud juist thole?
Use -y maist aagates akis that's whit fowk kens best fae the writin seestem
thay lairnt at the schuil?
Or dae whit A dae?

> An ye'd went an rested yer case...!

Can A no pit in an appeal?
A still hae a copy o the bit screid A wrate whan leukin intae this, gin ye
want tae see it, lat us ken.

Andy

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 29.AUG.2000 (01) [S]

Ian wrate:
> Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 28.AUG.2000 (06) [S]
>
> Scots taakars/speakers,
>
> A'm no sae fasht aboot the spellin masel. Thaim as haes taen a wee
> keek at ma ain steid can see A aye bes chyngean ma ain spellins fur
> tae gae wae the guid spellins A see on this steid an ithers.
>
> Housomiver, the spellin wud be a gremmatical thing an aa. It seems we
> hae loasst mind o that. Sae A hae twathrie gripes masel!
>
> The maist gripe A hae wud be the spellin 'duin'. A can see hou ye'd be
> fur spellan it that wey gif ye'r fur a *phonological* spellin, bot hit
> haes nae gremmatical grunds ava. The base form o the verb wud be
> 'dae', sae it maks mair sense juist pittan 'daen' fur the past forms.
> Else ye'r juist makan the haill thing mair complicate (or
> complicatet!) fae the gremmatical side.

Baith dae an shae, as ye ken are 'clessic' <ui> wirds.
The spellins dae an shae is juist central Scots variants that's become
'fossilized'
The NE haes [di] an [Si].
Mair *phonological* wad be dui - duid - duin. A canna see that catchin on
sae bi wey o a compromise
dae - did - duin haes evolved.

> Thai'r twathree things A'm no sae sicar aboot, fur thai wud hae the ae
> tungin (pronunciation) in Ulster. Wud it be, fur ensample, 'hairt' or
> 'hert' - A'm thinkan thai'r a differ, in some baeleids, atween the
> baith o them. An the wurd 'gremmar' at kythes abuin - is hit richtlie
> 'gremmar' or 'grammar'. Wud the spellin 'grammar' no show juist sae
> weel at the root vowel is /E/?

In monie wirds lik hert, ferm, stairt etc. haes baith /E/ an /e/. A tend tae
spell maist aa o thaim <ai> thinkin that its mair eith tae pronounce <ai>
/E/ nor <e> /e/.
A o coorse think spellins lik hert an ferm is 'fossilized' sae juist  haud
wi thaim.

A think gremmar is the NE pronunciation. A jalouse maist fowk says
'grammar'.
Monie fowk haes objectit tae the spellin gremmar.

Andy

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