LL-L: "Language maintenance" LOWLANDS-L, 20.JUL.2000 (06) [E]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.JUL.2000 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language maintenance"

Sandy hef skreeven:
>
> A new question: we know it can be sad when a language or some aspect of
> a > culture dies out, and it can also be an intellectual loss in the
> linguistic sphere. But is there any _ethical_ reason why languages should be kept
> alive if the native speakers no longer bother with it?
I can't really answer that question, but I do know that after I woke up to the
"indoctrination"
I got at school and every day life, I had an identity, which I never really
had before.
That's my reason to try and keep my language alive I guess... If my language
would die
out in the next few decades, current Dutch-only speakers would only look down
on me,
because I have what they consider a "very weird accent". If on the other hand
the language
would gain in status and perhaps number of speakers, their view would probably
change,
and maybe then I wouldn't so bad when people speak their minds about me, my
language
or my culture. Maybe the culture part is even more important, because I feel
there is an
essential cultural difference between the Low-Saxon and the other parts of the
Netherlands.
The same goes for Limburg I think. Not stepping on any toes now I hope...

> No people are ever without a language - a dying language is always replaced by another,
> like the old are replaced with the young, and probably a good thing no matter how
> much one venerates ones ancestors. Are nationalists and linguists (and other
> people with political, professional or whatever reasons for keeping
> languages alive) being unethical in intefering with a generation's
> wishes for their children?
If you put it like this, why not make English the global language?
Not meaning to be sarcastig, just extrapolating it a bit :)

Ron hef skreeven:
>
> > I get asked many times by Dutch speakers to say something in Low-Saxon.
> > But mostly it's not because they're interested in the language, they just
> > want to hear someone "talk stupid". No, I can't speak proper Dutch, I'll
> > have to accept that *sigh*...
>
> You get that a lot on the German side of the border too, Henry, not only with
> Low Saxon (Low German) but also with German dialects, especially the more
> "exotic", i.e., least Standard-German-like ones, such as Bavarian and
> Alemannic.  Yes, the underlying motivation in such situations tends to be to
> get you to talk "stupid" for their amusement.  This goes hand in hand with
> what the language varieties are associated with, in most cases with country
> folks and "ignorant" older townsfolk, with people who "haven't gotten with the
> program," an image that is fervently reinforced in the media.
>
Indeed... I take it in Germany you have some infamous commercials too,
where, just to get a "funny" commercial, they hired someone to bring their
message
in a (mostly) Germanified version of Low-Saxon. In the Netherlands there's
also a
TV show called "Toen was geluk nog heel gewoon", which is situated in
Rotterdam
of the 1950's. They have a character which is supposed to be from the
Low-Saxon
town Emmer-Compascuum, which is near the town Emmen in Drente. She speaks
Dutch with a 200% overdone accent, overlengthening vowels and such. And she
moves
her mouth in ways a Low-Saxon speaker would never do. People usually do that,
when
they want to be "funny", like "hey, look at me speaking a funny farmer
language".
I guess you know what I mean...

> From the point of view of a Northern German speaker who
> understands it somewhat but does not really know it, Low Saxon sometimes
> sounds "rude" and certainly down to earth.  Many delight in this supposed
> rudeness and earthiness, milk it for the sake of plain spectacle, sometimes
> dotting their German "juicy" Low Saxon phrases for certain effects.  What they
> don't really get is that they are passing value judgment on the basis of their
> own, separate language, in their minds the "proper" language, "proper" because
> it's taught in schools and is used by educated, successful people.  They don't
> get that none of the expressions in that sentence is rude in Low Saxon itself.
> (E.g., _Schiet_, unlike German _Scheiße_, is totally acceptable in polite
> company, also meaning simply 'dirt', and preposed 'unpleasant ...'  I, who is
> not prone to using offensive language, have used it on LL-L on more than one
> occasion.)
In my part of the Low-Saxon world, it's normal that you use down to earth
language.
It's part of the culture. "Tukker" (Twentenaar, someone from the Twente area)
and
"nuchter" (down to earth) are almost a synonym in the Netherlands... Also,
people
are less easily offended by language that might seem rude to Dutch people.

> When talking to me someone referred to Low Saxon as "your funny, little
> language up there."  He swore he didn't mean to belittle it, though ...  Yep!
> He is American and has a degree in German studies.  Need I say more?
>
Only yesterday someone originally from Twente asked me if I spoke Low-Saxon,
and when I replied yes, she said "oh, then I bet you can type comically!"
I kinda accept it from Dutch-only speakers, but hearing this from Low-Saxon
speakers, or people from that area, it really brings me down...

> > I thought they would maybe change their minds about Low-Saxon, but
> > afterwards I got question like why I hadn't went one step further and also > changed words
like "computer". Obviously their idea of Low-Saxon is that
> > it is something you only use to get some laughs...
>
> Exactly!  They must think it's just fun and games on your part, that you have
> too much time on your hands.  If a program didn't have a Dutch version and it
> were their task to create one from English, would *they* try to create a Dutch
> equivalent of 'computer'?  I think not.  So why suggest it it with regard to
> Low Saxon?
>
I'm a software engineer, and most of my colleagues are also, and we all use
mostly
English terms for anything computer related. So why in Wodan's name would I
use
Low-Saxon for computer related topics all of a sudden???

> > I've heard Germans say things like that too. Funny... it's the same
> > attitute towards Dutch, that Dutch people have towards Low-Saxon.
> > "I speak a more widely used language than you, so yours is just a
> > weird version of mine"...
>
> The more closely related another language seems to that of one's own, thus
> "legitimate," language the less seriously one tends to take it, thinking of it
> as some aberrant variety that is somehow funny in its legitimate status gained
> by some freaky historical event.  Similar attitudes exist among
> German-speakers vis-à-vis Yiddish ("faulty German").
>
Speaking of freaky historical events: perhaps if the hanseatic league had
remained
in power a little while longer, Low-Saxon would be spoken in the Netherlands
and in
Germany. And for that matter, maybe Low-Saxon would be the globally accepted
language, instead of English... My point is: if it weren't for
political/economical powers,
there probably wouldn't be any "clearly" defined languages, or language
borders, in my
opinion there would be one large language continuum, with every town speaking
just
a little bit different than the next. So therefore, one shouldn't consider
somebody elses
speech as lower/higher/stupid/funny or whatsoever. One should respect it and
just try
to communicate with the other the best he/she can. Like just yesterday I had
to speak
4 languages the whole day... Low-Saxon with the Low-Saxon speakers at work,
Dutch
with the Dutch speakers at work, German because the head of the German
division was
at the office, and English because the head of the mother company was also at
the
office. This I don't think of as a bother, but as something beautiful. I'm
expressing myself
in 4 different languages and with all of them combined, they give me so much
more ways
of expressing myself than when I just spoke 1. Actually, when there is a good
word I
know, in any language, which is better suited for the occasion than its
counterpart in
Low-Saxon or Dutch, I use that word, instead of the word I'd use in Low-Saxon
or Dutch.
The most used example of course is the German word "ueberhaupt". I many cases
I
wouldn't know of any word in any language I'm familiar with that describes the
situation
better. Maybe Ron knows a Low-Saxon word for it? (Not trying to be funny, just
trying to
be complete...)

> > I'm taking my own little stand, by using Low-Saxon for anything that it
> > can and should be used for. That doesn't mean I refuse to speak Dutch to
> > Dutch-only speakers, but it does mean that I don't use Dutch for almost
> > anything.
>
> My imaginary hat off to you!  And I take it you consistently talk to known Low
> Saxon speakers in your shared language (unless Dutch-only speakers are present
> who would not understand fully).
>
Yep, Low-Saxon whenever possible and applicable. About speaking Low-Saxon when
Dutch speakers are present: all through my schoolcareer, I'd speak Low-Saxon,
even
when Dutch speakers were present. I estimate 1 out of 10 kids didn't speak
Low-Saxon,
and the 1 kid that didn't, would fully understand the language anyway. That of
course
raises the question why the lessons weren't in Low-Saxon. Why did 90% of the
kids
have to receive their education in a language which was not their mother
tongue?
All in Dutch, just for this 10% that had Dutch as their native language, while
they could
easily have chosen for a school with mainly native Dutch speakers. In other
words:
why can they choose any school they like (all schools have education in
Dutch), while
we can't choose any? I would sure like to see at least one school in every
town with
education in Low-Saxon. I bet that would be pretty crowded schools...

Another note: I am entitled to use Low-Saxon (and only Low-Saxon) in a Dutch
court.
That means: my rights to be tried in my own language are acknowledged, my own
language is acknowledged. Why then have I no right (legally spoken) to get
anything
else in it? I wonder what would happen, were I to have children and not send
them to
(a Dutch) school. Would the legal system try to convict me, because I would
deprive
my children of their indoctrination, or would it acknowledge their rights to
get their
education in their native language (I'm gonna make sure my children speak
Low-Saxon
if I ever get any.)

> What I find sad in German programs, anthologies, etc., in which the basis is
> the use of Low Saxon (Low German), introductions, annotations, etc., tend to
> be in German.  Also, set and directing instructions in Low Saxon dramas are
> pretty much consistently written in German.  Why?!  In my current
> collaboration with the jury of the Freudenthal Prize, I say and write
> *everything* in Low Saxon, and a few other members do so too.
>
My point. If the whole thing is in one language anyway, why bother to make it
understandable for speakers of other languages?

good holden,
Henry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language maintenance

Henry,

You wrote (among several other interesting things):

> In the Netherlands there's also a
> TV show called "Toen was geluk nog heel gewoon", which is situated in
> Rotterdam
of the 1950's. They have a character which is supposed to be from the
> Low-Saxon
> town Emmer-Compascuum, which is near the town Emmen in Drente. She speaks
> Dutch with a 200% overdone accent, overlengthening vowels and such. And > she moves
> her mouth in ways a Low-Saxon speaker would never do. People usually do > that, when
> they want to be "funny", like "hey, look at me speaking a funny farmer > language".
> I guess you know what I mean...

In Germany there is theater company (which shall remain nameless in a nameless
city) that is pretty famous in the Low-Saxon-speaking world, with some or all
professional rather than the usual amateur actors and directors.  Already in
the late 1950s, and certainly well-established in the 1960s, some of its
productions were telecast, not only regionally (North German Radio
Corporation) but indeed nationally.  Sure, the plays were (and still are?)
mostly or always the usual parochial, farcical fare with "Humptata-haha!" and
all the old-time, down-home stereotypes you can stomach for one show, but
that's another matter.  What got me and many other North Germans that care
about the original language of the land was that, while the plays are normally
performed in Low Saxon, they were "cleaned up" by making them German
especially for national telecast, to accommodate those in the south (and in
the north) that had hard enough a time understanding the gist of the
Missingsch-based, somewhat "vulgar"-sounding _Norddeutsch_ with heavy Low
Saxon accents.  (I don't know if this is still being done.)  At the time at
least, this wasn't made clear to the viewership.  As far as every
_Volkstheater-Liebhaber_ in Germany was concerned, it was a _plattdeutsch_
theater group (or a _niederdeutsch_ one for the more "sophisticated).  So the
average southerner, who never or rarely had an opportunity to hear the real
language, was obviously duped into believing that they were listening to Low
Saxon, which at that time was officially considered a German dialect group.
As a rule, southerner and even most North Germans don't understand Low Saxon,
while pretty much everyone in Germany and Austria can understand plays in
Bavarian, Hessian and Rhenish.  To include "folk theater" from the North they
felt they had to translate it and just make is *sound* sort of Low Saxon, like
the character in the Netherlands TV show.

As was to be expected, many southerners were fooled.  Even quite recently a
woman from Franconia asked me to say something in Low Saxon.  (Well, you know
the routine.)  When I did, she protested, saying that can't be right, because
she hadn't understood more than a couple of words.  When I asked her  what I'd
have to do to make it "right," she told me I'd have to talk as on TV, like in
those theater plays.  She loved that "accent," and that's what she wanted to
hear from me, none of my gobbledigook.

> My point. If the whole thing is in one language anyway, why bother to make > it understandable for speakers of other languages?

The way it comes across to me is that they package it in such a way as if the
Low Saxon texts were some last, rare documents of a soon-to-be-gone language
that need introductions and annotations in a language people can actually
understand, much like you present an anthology of tales in a nearly extinct
Native American language with English explanations.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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