LL-L: "Language varieties" 20.JUN.2000 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.JUN.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Language varieties

Criostoir wrote about "Nottingham English".

A few thoughts.

1. There are Scandinavian influences throughout Northern English dialects.
2. We have previously noted that there are large differences in accent over

short distances in the West Midlands (eg around Birmingham). There must be
many more influences at work in the East Midlands than a putative Danish
one.
3. Most children learn a non-standard form of English (or German or French
or whatever) first.
4. The broadcast media are nowadays, as I've commented before, much more
"polyglot" than they used to be.
5. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Liverpudlians, for example,
are short of self-esteem, despite the divergence of their dialect from the
standard.
6. Use of a standard language gives both poets and peasants a wider
audience.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn [sasssisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

I got the response to bcc'ing Criostoir.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: North Frisian hasn't been used for ages in what is now Denmark.
North Frisian is used on the west coast of Sleswig/Slesvig/Schleswig and
the islands off that coast, all south of the Danish-German border.

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:20:04 +0100 (BST)
From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: A very astonished reply concerning northern Frisian, Jutish
substrates, Norse ponology and a lack of the International Phonetic
Alphabet
To: sassisch at geocities.com

Dear Ron/Rheinhard,

Thank you very much for your comments regarding my
posting in the Lowlands-L guestbook. Quite frankly I
never expected anybody to notice what I had written,
never mind it becoming a centre point for discussion!
Thank you very much. Perhaps this reticence on my part
comes from the socialised dogma that my language is -
as I said - a 'peasant dialect' or 'bad English',
unworthy of scrutiny and study.

> > The writer discusses his variety fairly eloquently
> > it seems.  Personally, I
> > don't see much that convinces me of specifically
> > Scandinavian origin of the
> > mentioned features, but I would be happy to be
> > instructed otherwise.

Well, yes, the Scandanavian influence IS
controversial, and I understand that without you
hearing the language spoken, there is very little I
can convey without an appropriate orthography. If I
had the resources to write using the International
Phonetic Alphabet which I know, I could prove the
Scandanavian phonology to you most effectively. As it
is, I don't and the English-based orthography I used
in the Guestbook was really very insufficient in
conveying the sounds of my language. It may be useful
for you to note that I speak the Long Eaton subdialect
of Nottingham English, which is in fact transitional
between Nottingham and Derby English.

For example, Nottingham English makes great use of
the schwa indeterminate vowel sound, which - for want
of a better method - I expressed as 'uh'in the
Guestbook. This seems to be a 'fundamental' vowel in
that almost all other vowels in my language may be
reduced to it, particularly in monosyllables: hence
'for' is reduced to [f] and schwa, 'to' to [t] and
schwa, and so on.

The 'very, very heavy glides' of 'y' and 'w' can be
expressed as [j:] and [w:], and are lengthened even
further is the tone of speech is emphatic. Further,
the heavy glide on a preceding word mutates the first
sound of the next word if it begins with a vowel:
hence [aij] ('I') mutates [aen:] (haven't) to become
[ai:j jaen:j:]. There is no vowel correspondent to the
'a' in 'car' except in media loanwords, [ae] being
used in almost all circumstances: 'class' is
pronounced [kl:ae:s:]. There is also a minor schwa
glide after every consonant with I cannot represent
here. Special mention must also be made of the
phenomenon of 'lingering' consonants, where [n], [m]
and [l] are pushed to the palate and the tongue
tensed, with the result that the sound is exceessively
lengthened and also given a strong [j:] glide: hence
'I haven't' is fully represented as [ai:j jaen:j:].
The phenomenon of clipped vowels also seems to be
unique to Nottingham English, and may be put down to
Norse influence.

These phonemes are all reminiscient of the way the
[j]phoneme and final orthographical /r/ in Old Norse
are used, so far as I know. The rising tones of
Nottingham English also seem to recall certain aspects
of Norse phonology. Similarly, the unique /g/ and /k/
that I have appears to be derived from Norse gutteral
/g/ and /k/ but taken to the extreme, so that quite
often it sounds as though I am pronouncing a gargling
sound or a swallowing sound, yet one quite different
from the Greek 'ghamma'. I am convinced that these
gutterals are unique to Nottingham English, and that
are either a) developed from Norse gutterals; or b)
independent innovations within Nottingham English.

> > The writer mentions an interest in possible
> > Scandinavian features in
> > Insular Frisian (North Frisian I assume).  This
> > reminds me of the feature d
> > > j (~ y), especially after nasals and liquids, in
> > North Frisian; for
> > instance _lönj_ 'land', _strönj_ 'beach', 'shore'
> (=
> > 'strand'), and _fälj_
> > 'field' in Continental North Frisian of
> Bökingharde,
> > Mooring dialect
> > (Frasch).  A similar feature is found in Southern
> > Jutish, a North Germanic
> > group of varieties (usually considered part of
> > Danish); e.g., _sænj_
> > 'send', 'sent', _haj stanjen_ (< *_had standen_)
> > 'had stood', _kjoljer_
> > 'cellar' (cf. Standard Danish _kælder_).  This may
> > not be coincidental,
> > considering that both languages are spoken in
> > roughly the same area (around
> > today's Danish-German border).  Might this be due
> to
> > a Frisian substrate in
> > Jutish, or might it be due to Jutish influences on
> > Frisian?  Any opinions
> > and/or evidence?

Well, I am a strong proponent of substrate theory. I
believe that with few exceptions almost all change in
langauge can be attributed not to 'true' independent
development but to substrate influence. I remember
someone once saying to me that Latvian was "Lithuanian
in the mouths of Estonians" and I think that that -
while crude - is perhaps a good assumption, even if it
does ignore the existence of Livonian, Latgalian and
Sudovian in the adjacent language areas.

By "insular Frisian" I did indeed mean Northern
Frisian, that which is/was spoken on the Danish
Frisian Islands. What intrigues me most is that
Northern Frisian is a west Germanic language that has
come into contact and under the influence of a NORTH
Germanic language, namely Jutish and of course Danish.
This has led to seperate phonetic developments of a
superficially Scandanavian nature, i.e., [k] instead
of [x], heavy use of [j], and so on.

I think the theory of a Frisian substrate in Jutish is
probably far more likely than the other way round;
divergences in languages may be defined by interaction
between two groups whose languages are very different.
For Jutish to be so different to Danish one would have
to presume the existence of a substantial non-Danish
influence: in the situation, Frisian seems the most
probable candidate. However, I make no claim to any
knowledge of Frisian or Jutish, and I would like to
know more about significant attributes of Northern
Frisian that may be put down to Scandinavian
influence, of which I have already mentioned [k]
rather than [x]. Can anyone help?

I am also interested in Gaelic influence on Faroese,
although I'm aware that Faroese is hardly a Lowland
language within your sphere of competence - could you
give me some sites where I could find the relevant
information?

With regard to my Guestbook entry, I would argue that
there is much scope for a sociological angle on
Lowland languages, many of which - Norn, Plattdeutsch,
northern Frisian, Lallans and Ullans - are still
perceived to have very low social status and to be
'broken' versions of other 'superior' tongues. As I
mentioned, this has a considerable impact on the
speakers' self-esteem, and we really must investigate
this while we have the chance. Please contact me at
paada_please at yahoo.co.uk if you have any ideas
regarding this issue. I am a sociologist of a sort and
would be very excited to help you on this subject.

Anyway, I shall stop wasting your time with pointless
trivia. Thank your for your effort, your patience and
for taking the time to read my entry in the Guestbook.
Please contact me to discuss the above points if you
want.

Criostoir O Ciardha.

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