LL-L: "Grammar" 22.JUN.2000 (02) [S]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" (was "Morphophonology") 18.JUN.2000 (01) [E/S]

Andy wrate:
>
>A tak it ye're gaun on aboot the nairative here. Thon brings up an
>interestin quaisten aboot gremmar vis a vis formal or informal.
>
>Nairative /colloquial : "They turns aboot an leuks at me but A ignores
>them."
>Formal (wrutten) :Thay turnt aboot an leukit at me but I ignored thaim"?
>or wad thon than no be 'reportit speech' : Thay turnt aboot and leukit at
>him but he ignored thaim?
>
>A whiles canna git ma harns aboot some o thir gremmaitical concepts an
>juist gang alang wi whit soonds richt. Tho whan writin 'formal' hou muckle

>is 'Inglis eddication' influencin the wey A write things doun? A haed tae
>teach masel tae write Scots.

I wad jalouse at the problem here is no sae muckle atween formal an
informal as atween different forms o the historic present tense. In
Shetlandic, ye'll get written stories at uises _baith_ the past historic
and the preterite - even, contrar ti whit I sayed in a aerlier postin, i
the same sentence - an I wad think at this wad be general Scots practice.

'So I grips an kerries her (a hen) ta da hoose yun sam wye, an gits Kirsie
ta faetch me a kishie ta set her atil afore I got a cup o tae, an fan some
wye ta stowe her, whaar shui widna tuilie wi da aald eens.'

A Wrastle wi a Hen, bi Joseph Gray.

I wad say at the chyce atween historic present an preterite isna aither-or
- ye can mixter an vary thaim for effect.

The problem is at, whaur ye div want ti uise the historic present, the
temptation is tae uise the ordinar present tense forms, like in English.
Sae in Scots ye coud write:

Sae I grippit an cairied her ti the hoose
or
Sae I grips an cairies her ti the hoose

Whether ane is mair formal nor the ither I dinna ken - I wad say at
nairative (as fornent expository prose) needna be aither formal or
informal. Naitural Scots nairative wad uise baith historic present an
preterite, an I dinna see at we shoud hiv ti chuise aither ane or the ither
whan we'r writin nairative. I think at ti uise the historic present aa the
time wad be a bit o a deive - better ti vary thaim. Elegant variation, an
aa that.

Whit I dinna think ye coud write is:

Sae I grip an cairie her ti the hoose

This disna soond richt ti me ava. It's naither the preterite nor the
historic present, but the ordinar present uised historically, likely bi
analogy wi standard English. The main thing than is no whether ye uise the
historic present or the preterite, but that, gin we uise the historic
present, it shoud be the colloquial Scots form, no the ordinar present
tense forms at I dout nae Scots speaker wad iver uise in that wey.

Whit aboot:

Sae I grippit an cairies her....

or:

Sae I grips an cairied her...

Nane o thir twa soonds richt ti me aither. The saicont ane mibbie, but the
first ane soonds awfu orra. Oniebody agree - or no?

Mysel, I think Scots nairative shoud be foondit on colloquial nairative -
like the ensamples at Tom gied us - an no on English nairative. If ye'r
gaun ti uise English rules ye micht as weel write English. It's the failure
ti adapt colloquial Scots strynds for general sustained nairative - as
fornent dialogue - at haes twined Scots o a nairative register.

John M. Tait.

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Morphophonology" 11.JUN.2000 (01) [E/LS]

> A'v been
>leukin oot some o the mair kittle passages in ma current novel wi ither
>pairsons ti see hou A'v written them. A wonder if John or ony ither Scots
>spaekers wad like ti check this oot an see if they think it's richt?>

Aa yer conjugations soonds fine ti me, Sandy.

>1. "They turns aboot an leuks at us but oo ignores them."
>
>2. "Ye daes yer best for fowk an see what ye gits for it."
>
>A dout this last ane could be sayed like this an aa:
>
>3. "Ye daes yer best for fowk an see what ye git for it."
>
>ie in example 2 the spaeker's on aboot something that's been duin in
>the past an the repercussion's in the past an aa, but in example 3
>favours wis duin in the past an the repercussion haes juist kythed
>shortsyne.
>Asweel, ye could say it in the abstrack, mair like a proverb:
>
>4. "Ye daes yer best for fowk an sees what ye gits for it."
>
>This soonds gey like the comic English phrase "You pays your money
>and you takes your choice." Aiblins they _ar_ a praisent historic in some
>English dialecks!

This is the kynd o analyses at Scots gremmar is wantin.

John M. Tait.

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