LL-L: "Language varieties" 24.JUN.2000 (04) [E/Occitan]

Sat Jun 24 21:46:01 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 24.JUN.2000 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" 23.JUN.2000 (01) [E]

Cristoir,

Re. Norse influence on Lallans/Ullans, I think we may be able to develop
something here. I have, alas, only a limited knowledge of Danish (and
officially no knowledge of any other Scandinavian language), nor do I have
much knowledge of phonetics. However, it is obvious that Danish and Geordie
have much in common and that, as a logical follow-on, there should be
notable Scandinavian influence in Scots (at all levels: lexicon, phonology,
grammar etc.)

However, I must add that the claim that Ulster-Scots is in fact a North
Scandinavian language that has been put forward is quite outrageous. Yes,
there were North Scandinavian languages spoken in areas where Ulster-Scots
now has a home, but I have never ever found any evidence that Ulster-Scots
is any more influenced by a "Scandinavian substrate" than any other dialect
of Scots.

Best wishes,
----------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
077 2095 1736

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From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" 23.JUN.2000 (01) [E]

Folk,

Re. the language/dialect debate, I have just attended one morning of the
XIII Ulster-American Symposium in Omagh, Co Tyrone, at which LOWLANDS-L
member Prof Montgomery talked on Ulster-Scots, as did Dr Philip Robinson
(not a doctor of language or linguistics, I should add, but somebody who
has made and makes an invaluable contribution to the Ulster-Scots cause).

Of course the old language vs. dialect question reared its head, and I
honestly think the simplest answer, at least on a language forum such as
this, is to ask simply why does it matter? Would language status for Scots
imply that it is more worthy of academic study than the Yorkshire *dialect*
of English? Ultimately I believe native speakers decide what is a language
and what is a dialect, and of course these terms may not necessarily be
mutually exclusive. People often say the recognition of Ulster-Scots was
"political" - but is not the recognition of four distinct North Germanic
languages in continental Scandinavia political? Or "Moldovan" over
"Romanian" in the former Soviet Republic? Or Indonesian from Malay? Or
Catalan in Spain but not in France?

Regards,
----------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
077 2095 1736

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Criostoir O Ciardha wrote:

> Further, if we are to assume that Frisian (or at least
> proto-Anglo-Frisian) is relatively indigenous to the
> Frisian Islands and Friesland (cf: the 'Frisii' of
> Roman maps in the same area), does that not beg the
> assertion that Dutch is a later intruder? And, by
> extension, that there must be a considerable Frisian
> substrate in modern Dutch?

Criostoir, I don't think there is any doubt that between them Dutch and Low
Saxon (Low German) have usurped most of the originally Frisian-speaking
area and that there are variously apparent Frisian substrates in the Low
Franconian and Low Saxon varieties now used in those areas.

Frisian (historically perhaps best seen as "Western," "Central" (=
Westerlauwer) and "Eastern") used to extend as far southwest as into the
northwestern corner of what is now Belgium (including Bruges) and as far
east as the southern shore of the mouth of River Elbe.  Add to this the
Northern Frisian region, which used to be separated from the rest only by a
small Saxon-speaking area around the mouth of River Elbe.  Most of these
formerly Frisian-speaking regions are now Dutch- and Low-Saxon-speaking
(and Low Saxon in these and other areas is now at an advanced stage of
being replaced by Dutch and ("High") German, depending on which side of the
political border a variety happens to fall).

Clearly apparent Frisian substrates (due to relatively recent loss of
Frisian) are found for instance in what strangely is called "Westfries,"
namely Dutch varieties in former West Frisian areas, and also _Stedsk_ or
_Stedfrysk_ ("Urban Frisian"), contact varieties that appear to be Dutch
with very strong Frisian substrates and influences.

Frisian substrates in Low Saxon are particularly apparent in some of the
dialects of the Netherlands provinces of Fryslân (Friesland) and Groningen
where Frisian and Low Saxon meet and overlap, and on the German side of the
border in Eastern Friesland where most people don't mean "Eastern Frisian"
but "Eastern Friesland Low Saxon" when they say "Oostfreesk(e Taal)," where
the Eastern Frisian language has all but disappeared (the only remnant
being found in the Saterland, south of Eastern Friesland) and Low Saxon on
Frisian substrates retains a relatively strong position.

If you have not already done so, I recommend that for a concise historical
overview with language samples you read Orrin W. Robinson's _Old English
and Its Closest Relatives: A survey of the earliest Germanic Languages_
(Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-8047-2221-8).  (Of
course he is referring to the earliest *known*, i.e., recorded, Germanic
language varieties.)

Best regards,
ReinhardRon

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From: Roger Thijs [Roger.Thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" 23.JUN.2000 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> You brought up the question as to what is a dialect and what is a
> language.  I guess you are aware that this is quite the can or worms.  It

> has been asked and discussed many times before, and it seems that there
is
> never any real agreement on that, i.e., that the discussions tend to be
> open-ended because there are as many opinions as there are participants
in
> the discussion.  In fact, many would say that this type of discussion is
> futile

The issue is recurring regularely in all lists related to languages.
Below, what I found in list-oc this morning:

quote:
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Domergue Sumien" <d_sumien at club-internet.fr>
Aan: "Thomas T. Field" <tfield at umbc.edu>; <list-oc at cco.asso.fr>
Verzonden: vrijdag 23 juni 2000 23:53
Onderwerp: lenga/dialècte
-----

Thomas T. Field a écrit:
>
> Lo questionari de Greenberg, que'u coneishi e que soi d'aqueths qui
> creden en l'utilitat de co qui he. Lo problema n'ei pas la
> determinacion de la distancia linguistica, co qui ei generalament
> possible (mes, sovent calere decidir si sera la sintaxi, la
> fonologia, o lo lexic qui va dominar hens aqueras determinacions, co
> qui ei arbitrari en partida). Non, jo que pensi lo problema qu'ei la
> causida de la distancia precisa on cau  botar l'etiqueta "diferencia
> de lenga." La structura linguistica ne permet pas d'establir ua basa
> solide ta aquera mena de decision.
>
> Thomas

E pertant, daubuns linguistas qui hèn tribalh de terren en seguint
Greenberg qu'estableishen critèris entà parlar de "lenga" o de
"dialècte".
En resumint, que disen que i a lengas diferentas quand dus idiomas
comparats dab lo questionari Greenberg e presentan mensh de 80% de
cognats dens lo lexic fondamentau.
Per contra, quan an mei de 80% de cognats dab correspondéncias
regularas, los dus parlars comparats que son considerats com dus
dialèctes de la medisha lenga.

Dab aqueste metòde, la lista de las "lengas" d'Africa (en dehòra de la
question de la classificacion) qu'ei estada possibla e qu'ei pro
acceptada adara.

Totun que soi evidentament d'acòrdi dab vos que lo lexic n'ei pas tota
l'estructura d'ua lenga. Qu'es poiré har aquesta critica aus qui
considèran exclusivament lo lexic. Mes qu'ei vertat tanben que lo lexic
ei sovent mei fondamentau entà comunicar que la sintaxi e la fonologia.
Que'm compreneratz se'vs disi en marrit anglés, dab un accent estrangèr
e ua sintaxi aproximativa: "holiday go I Finland, when month August,
because lakes big want I visit".

Que reconeishi que la question lenga/dialècte ne hè pas enqüèra
l'unanimitat en linguistica. Mes que i a ua escòla qui ahorteish que's
pòt distinguir scientificament lenga e dialècte, dab arguments qui tròbi
convenceires e qui son pro acceptats en çò deus africanistas.

Que soi d'acòrdi tanben dab Joseph Greenberg e Meritt Ruhlen quan
condemnan lo hèit que los metòdes de comparason deu africanistas e son
acceptats tà las lengas africanas, mes non pas tà las lengas europèas,
asiaticas o americanas. Que i a un problèma de prejutjats irracionaus,
ce'm sembla...
Jo que credi que caleré temptar aquera experiéncia qui seré d'aplicar lo
metdòde comparatiu deus africanistas a las lengas d'Euròpa...

Coraument

Domergue
---- endquote

Regards,

Roger

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