LL-L: "Historical phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.MAY.2000 (07) [E]

Wed May 3 23:52:19 UTC 2000

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From: Roger Thijs [Roger.Thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Historical phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.MAY.2000 (04) [E]

At 08:26 3/05/00 -0700, you wrote:
>From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
>Subject: Names
>John Feather wrote under "Names":
>> a) why French has "guêpe" for "wasp" while Italian has "vespa"
>I'm not quite sure what your basic assumption is here.  Are you suggesting
(1)
>that the word for 'wasp' is a Germanic loan in French but not in other
Romance
>varieties, or (2) that the Germanic word for 'wasp' is a loan in all Romance
>varieties but shows the "gu-" phenomenon only in French?  Interestingly, this
>word is one of those that in most Germanic varieties underwent metathesis of
>/ps/ to /sp/; e.g., Old English _wæpse_ > Middle English _waspe_ > Modern
>English _wasp_ -- similarly in German and Dutch.  Pre-metathesized forms are
>preserved for instance in Scots _waps_ (~ _waasp_) and Low Saxon (Low German)
>_Weps_ ~ _Wöps_ ~ _Wepsch_ (~ _Wesp_).  The word has been linked with the
>Indo-European verbal root for 'to weave'.  _Vespa_ already occurs in Latin,
>and most Romance varieties have similar forms (also Occitan _vèspa_).

In my Limburgish (Vliermaal) we say also "wijps" for the Dutch "wesp".

As to the w to g transformation, did eventually "Wodan" by this phenomenon
change into "God". In my dialect we say "goensdoag" for the Dutch
"woensdag" (wednesday).

Similarely in old Flemish:

Doemen schreef Ons Heren jaer
Dertien hondert ende twee vor waer,
Op enen __goensdach__, dat verstaet,
So geviel ene grote daet
Den Vlaminge tegen die Fransoyse,
...
(chronicle by Velthem of the French-Flemish battle of the "gulden sporen"
in Kortrijk in 1302)

As to French, cf. the (Dutch) names:
Willem: Guillaume
Wouter: Gauthier
cf also:
Wales:          Galles
etc.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Historical phonology

Sandy wrote:
>In Scots a "chapman" is a door-to-door peddler, ie someone who
"chaps" (knocks) at the door, hence the name "Chapman"!<

An example of "post knock ergo propter knock"! This is just one of those
unfortunate coincidences. The etymologies are different. "Chap" = "knock" is
from ME "chappen" (Du, G "kappen"). The other "chap" is cognate with
"cheap", as already suggested.

Ron wrote:

>John Feather wrote under "Names":

>> a) why French has "guêpe" for "wasp" while Italian has "vespa"<

>I'm not quite sure what your basic assumption is here.  Are you suggesting
(1)
that the word for 'wasp' is a Germanic loan in French but not in other
Romance
varieties, or (2) that the Germanic word for 'wasp' is a loan in all Romance
varieties but shows the "gu-" phenomenon only in French?  <

I was actually pointing out a problem, not assuming anything. I mistakenly
thought, having consulted the wrong book, that the Romance words for "wasp"
were all borrowed from German(ic) at a late date. Since "Vespa" is in fact
Latin it may only be French which got it in this way (Sp. avispa).

>Interestingly, this word is one of those that in most Germanic varieties
underwent metathesis of /ps/ to /sp/; e.g., Old English _wæpse_ > Middle
English _waspe_ > Modern English _wasp_ -- similarly in German and Dutch.
Pre-metathesized forms are
preserved for instance in Scots _waps_ (~ _waasp_) and Low Saxon (Low
German)
_Weps_ ~ _Wöps_ ~ _Wepsch_ (~ _Wesp_).  <

I think "wops" occurs in English dialects, but its usage is sometimes jokey
nowadays.

>> b) why Romance had to borrow a word for such an ordinary creature.<<

>Words for lots of apparently ordinary creatures and objects get borrowed.
Think for example of the English name _dandelion_ from Old French
_dent-de-lion_ (< Latin _dens leonis_ 'lion's tooth') for a flower that has
been growing in profusion in the British Isles since before contacts with
the
Normans.<

But there's often a reason for things like this. If the French ate dandelion
leaves as a salad then their "posh" name for it could have been copied by
the middle class and gradually worked its way down the (food) chain. Did
dandelions really grow in profusion in the good old days? I have heard that
it (like other "weeds" such as chickweed) are actually found abundantly in
our gardens nowadays because they were deliberately cultivated as vegetables
in the past. I never heard that wasps were good eating (even for the
French)!

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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