LL-L: "Creatures & plants" (was "Historical phonology") LOWLANDS-L, 05.MAY.2000 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAY.2000 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
 =======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Historical phonology"

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Names

> Words for lots of apparently ordinary creatures and objects get borrowed.
> Think for example of the English name _dandelion_ from Old French
> _dent-de-lion_ (< Latin _dens leonis_ 'lion's tooth') for a
> flower that has
> been growing in profusion in the British Isles since before
> contacts with the Normans.

Yes, there's a huge discrepancy between traditional zoological and botanical
usage in minority languages (such as Scots - or perhaps in the example
above, Old English) which are generally messy, and the sort of thing we find
in languages (such as modern English) in which classification work has been
carried out by zoologists and botanists to the point where there is almost a
one-to-one correspondence between names for species and the species
themselves.

In Scots zoology, for example, a frog or toad is a "puddock" - no
distinction is made. Could it be that "wasp" was borrowed into languages
that didn't make a distinction between wasps and bees, from those languages
that did make the distinction?

A study of Scots ornithology can also be enlightening - the recent
publication "A Guide to Scots Bird Names" (by Robin Jackson & David
Mitchell, Ptarmigan Press 1997, ISBN 1 872054 40 4) the same name is used
for many species of bird, and conversely, many species have many different
names.

In Scots, a "gowan", often glossed as "daisy", is really any small yellow or
white flower that stands out brightly from a grassy background - there seems
to be no traditional concept of botanical species as we know it, just a
matter of making whatever distinctions serve everyday purposes best. After
that, qualification can be used for finer distinctions - a dandelion is
sometimes called a "witch gowan" in Scots, for example. As children we
invariably called a dandelion a "pee-the-bed" in Scots, strangely
synchronising with the modern French "pisenlit".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
http://www.fleimin.demon.co.uk

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Historical phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.MAY.2000 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:

>Words for lots of apparently ordinary creatures and objects get borrowed.
>Think for example of the English name _dandelion_ from Old French
>_dent-de-lion_ (< Latin _dens leonis_ 'lion's tooth') for a flower that has
>been growing in profusion in the British Isles since before contacts with the
>Normans.

Euphemism? In Scots this is known as Pish-the-Bed - with similar forms in
colloquial English - because of its diuretic properties.

John M. Tait.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Creatures & plants

Sandy wrote:

> As children we
> invariably called a dandelion a "pee-the-bed" in Scots, strangely
> synchronising with the modern French "pisenlit".

I wonder if this is why 'dandelion' is called _Hunnenbloom_ "dog flower" in
Low Saxon (Low German), besides _Koobloom_ ~ _Kohbloom_ "cow flower" and
_Botterbloom_ "butter flower" (the last of which denotes 'buttercup' in other
dialects).  As small children we would play with dandelion flowers, and the
adults and older children would warn us that it is the kind of flower (LS
_Hunnenbloom_ or Missingsch _Hundeblume_, _Löwenzahn_ "lion's tooth" in
German) that dogs prefer to pee on ...  It makes you want to ask what came
first, the name or the myth.

Considering John's comment:

> Euphemism? In Scots this is known as Pish-the-Bed - with similar forms in > colloquial English - because of its diuretic properties.

... I wonder if there is any connection at all.  Might dogs involved in
Scotland too?

Sandy also wrote:

> Yes, there's a huge discrepancy between traditional zoological and > botanical
> usage in minority languages (such as Scots - or perhaps in the example
> above, Old English) which are generally messy, and the sort of thing we > find
> in languages (such as modern English) in which classification work has > been
> carried out by zoologists and botanists to the point where there is almost > a
> one-to-one correspondence between names for species and the species
> themselves.

I dare say that this is, by and large, the case also in Low Saxon (Low German)
vis-à-vis German.  In most LS dialects there happens to be a difference in
naming between 'frog' (_Pogg(e)_) and 'toad' (_Üütz_ ~ _Üütsch_, _Krööt_ or
_Quadux_) [cf. German _Frosch_ vs _Kröte_].  However, _Poggüütz_ or
_Üütz(e)pogg(e)_ can mean either 'frog' or 'toad', though I am not sure if
they can do so within the same dialect.  Does anyone know?

There seem to be many cases of a given LS name referring to different plants,
depending on the dialect.  _Botterbloom_ 'dandelion' ~ 'buttercup' above is
one example.  Another one is _Kükenbloom_ ("chicks' flower") which means
'daisy' in some dialects and 'cowslip' in others.

Does anyone know of a sizeable botanical and/or zoological reference work for
Low Saxon (Low German)?

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =======================================================================