LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 22.NOV.2000 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Language varieties

BBC Radio 4 is presenting (Thursday mornings at 9 am) "a third series of the
deservedly acclaimed history of spoken English ['The Routes of English'].
This [one] concentrates on the state of local talk from the ancient language
of Cornwall [sic] to the new Estuary English".

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 22.NOV.2000 (01) [E]

> From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
> Subject: Language varieties
> I presume that in using the term "parish language" Roger meant
something
> other than "non-standard language", which in any case would also cover
> "koiné". I would rather try to extract the sense of what he says than
object
> to his terminology. It is possible that since he is not a native
English
> speaker he has simply chosen a translation of the more neutral word
"gemeente"
> which has the wrong overtones? On the other hand there may be some
other more
> particular reason for choosing it. I should be interested to know.

What I meant was really parish as a group of people living together
close to their church.
In the municipalty I was born there were originally three parishes:
Vliermaal (1000 inhabitants), Vliermaalroot (800 inhabitants) and
Zammelen (400 inhabitants).
Each of the three has it's own variety of Limburgish, so one can easely
recognize what parish someone is coming from. The varieties are
sufficiantly close for being easely mutually understandable though.

In prerevolutionary times (before 1795), parts of the municipality,
quite often coinciding with parishis,  had their own "burgemeester",
elected for two years. Their major tasks at the time was the repartition
of taxes, which were imposed as lump sums on the municipalities.
Nowadays a "burgemeester" is the head of the municipality. I think in
Germany one still used "Burgemeisterei" for a part of a municipality at
the beginning of this century..

In Limburg we are in the mid of a transition from low-german to
middle-german, that as to historians, moved in waves over time:
influence from Cologne, alternating with influence from Brabant,
combined with Romance elements from the South. Absorption of these "new"
elements versus conservation of older forms were particular for each
parish. People quite often also maried inside the parish. Studies have
been done regarding some hereditary deseases, bound to persist in these
quite closed communities. (While globally the area was covered by the
County of Loon, about 10 municipalities scattered over the area, were
property of the "Kappittel van Sint Servaas" from Maastricht, 10 other
municipalities scattered over the area were independent and paid a
"redemption tax" to Brabant as well as to the Republic. One municipality
was a lost iland of the Bishopric of Trier. One belonged to the Teutonic
Order. Several were undivided condomium. etc. etc.)

This all may explain why I really intended to refer to "parish dialect"
for "local dialect". I'm aware this term could sound odd in a muslim
environment. (Though I remember a berber engineer from Rabat told me he
understood at least 5 varieties of berber language, all spoken in a
closed neighbourhoud of Rabat)

I must add that "Brabantish Dutch" (as well as incidentilly still Latin
and French) was used as written koiné since the 12th century. Though
Belgian Limburg (the old county of Loon) was never part of the Spanish/
Austrian Netherlands, but, with Liege, was part of the Westphalian Kreis
of Germany, the koiné never was German but Dutch.

So one often says:
The dialect of Vliermaal is a dialect OF Dutch
Limburgish dialects are dialects OF Dutch.
(I don't agree personally...)
The word "OF" is not very correct.

Some issues:
1. The dialect of Bonn is a dialect OF German
The dialect of Cologne is a dialect OF German
The dialect of Düsseldorf is a dialect OF German
The dialect of Essen is a dialect OF German
If any of these sentences is correct, where does this stop exactly when
one goes from South to North and why does it stop at that particular oak
or at that partcular farm.

2. The dialect of Vliermaal is a Limburgish dialect
is correct, I guess, but:
The dialect of Vliermaal is a dialect OF Limburgish
is hard to say,
since Limburgish has no koinè (not yet?)
Does the occurence of a koinè justify using "OF", or better:
Is the existence of a koinè necessary for "OF" being applicable.

3. So things are more complicated as the linguistic differences between
"parish language" and "koiné" are increasing.
What's correct:
The street language of Saint Germain des Prés is a dialect OF French
Picard as spoken in Arras is a dialect OF French
Walloon as spoken in Liège is a dialect OF French.
Occitan from Marseille is a dialect OF French

4. And even further:
Flemish from Bray-Dunes is a dialect OF French
Flemish from Bray-Dunes is a dialect OF France
(In France people often have difficulty in making the distinction)

Regards,
Roger

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