LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 15.OCT.2000 (02) [E]

Sun Oct 15 21:38:11 UTC 2000

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen [baxichedda at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Folklore"

niels winther [niels.winther at dfds.dk] wrote:

> A new name for a middle finger. Is it a loan?
>
> The middle finger, also called _impudicus_ or _lewd_
> has got a new name in the
> circles of young people here in Denemarken. I think
> I will spell it
> _fokfinger_
> because Jutish has _fok_ and _fokeri_ in the obsc.
> sense, that is the English
> sense, not the Dutch( a strong case of faux amis),
> but young people do not
> seem
> to be aware of that, and that is of course
> especially not the case in
> Copenhagen. So is this new name for the middle
> finger known from other
> Lowlands
> or is it a local combination, only the first
> syllable being imported?
> The pronunciation of the first vowel varies from
> sampa [Q] to [u].
> When the lewd is pointed at somebody, it is called
> "to give them the finger".
> The word is completely inbürgered with young people,
> since even small children
> use it without knowing or thinking of the etymology.

Being from the Copenhagen-area myself, I would say
that the first syllable is taken directly out of the
American action films. I'm "old enough" to remember
that f... originally was about the gesture of "giving
the finger" to somebody and the word used for the
finger itself came from the American swearing +
finger.
The use of "fuck" (the English spelling) started among
older teen-agers some 15 years ago, as I remember. It
was considered something very provoking to say, but
also slightly "cool" in some circles, since foreign
swearings were not common knowledge among teen-agers
back then. Now it has lost this "status", partially
because the "young ones" today know a lot more "bad
words" in English, partially because "fuck" has been
with us for so long,  and it is know used for a series
of "mixed" swearings (eg. "fuck det") where it looses
the provoking feature that it once had.
"To give someone the finger" is also replacing an
older expression, as far as I remember.
I think the name for the finger itself was created,
because it is short and it sounds "smart" to a younger
person (eg. when you refer to someone how you told
somebody to get lost). But if the "f...finger" is
going to stay will depend on wether the teen-agers
today will continue to use it when they get older...
In my opinion, it is still pure "slang"...(and I think
the Danish comical tv-series of "Brødrene Bisp" some
10 years back is to thank for the [u] pronounciation).

(This must be the most "un-cool" thing I ever wrote on
a mailing list - if it sounds too bad, then erase it!)
Greetings, Lone Olesen

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Folklore

Marco wrote:

>The ... Dutch nursery rhyme that goes with [the names of the fingers] is:

"Naar bed, naar bed", zei Duimelot
"Eerst nog wat eten", zei Likkepot
"Waar zal ik het halen", zei Lange Jaap
"Uit vader's kastje", zei Ringeling
"Ik zal het verklappen!", zei 't Kleine Ding<

There is an English nursery rhyme which goes:

"Come, let's to bed," says Sleepy-head;
"Tarry a while," says Slow;
"Put on the pot," says Greedy-gut,
"We'll sup before we go."

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations cites the source as 'Gammer Gurton's
Garland' (1784). I had wrongly remembered the first words as "To bed, to
bed", which is why I connected this with the Dutch rhyme, but the idea of
eating first is contained  in both.

John Feather

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Folklore

In _Kleines plattdeutsches Wörterbuch für den
mecklenburgisch-vorpommerschen Sprachraum_ (Neumünster: Wachholtz, Rostock:
Hinstorff, ISBN 3-529-04613-2 -- apparently a superceded edition from
before reunification), Renate Herrman-Winter gives this finger-counting
nursery rhyme (p. 73) in what appears to be a Low Saxon (Low German)
dialect from Mekelnborg/Mecklenburg:

Dat is de Dumen,
dee schüttelt de Plummen,
dee leest se up,
dee ät se up,
un de Lütt, de löppt secht' sien Mudder.

My translation:

That is the thumb.
That one shakes the plums (off the tree). [index finger]
That one gathers/picks them up. [middle finger]
That one eats them up. [ring finger]
And the little one, he/she runs and tells (it to) his/her mother. [little
finger]

This helped to retrieve a German, Northern dialect, version from the
farthest recesses of my mind.  You play the game like this: an older
person, usually an adult holding the child on his/her lap, grasps and
shakes lightly the tip of the child's corresponding finger with his/her
thumb and forefinger at every line; the small finger is shaken a little
more vigorously at the last line, and oftentimes the child gets a round of
tickles or hugs and/or kisses at the end.

Das ist der Daumen.  [thumb]
Der schüttelt die Pflaumen. [index finger]
Der liest/hebt sie auf. [middle finger]
Der bringt sie nach Haus. [ring finger]
Und der (kleine/die kleine {insert child's name here}, der/die) isst sie
alle auf. [little finger]

My translation:

This/that is the thumb. [thumb]
That/this one shakes the plums (off the tree). [index finger]
That/this one gathers/picks them up. [middle finger]
That/this one takes them home. [ring finger]
And that/this one (little {insert child's name here}, he/she) eats them all
up. [little finger]

Friendly regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: david strommen [si00924 at navix.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 13.OCT.2000 (03) [E]

The litjegoddagemannjen for the little finger that I grew up with is from
our
dialect group north of Bergen in the area called Nordfjord.  I have heard
people
from Stavanger call him Lilleperspelemann or vetleperspelemann.  Thank you
so much
for the compilation of the various languages, it is really something to
see.  The
childhood games that we are taught are very important to pass on I believe,
and if
anything in my starting this discussion I hope people ingrain them into our

vocabulary so we can pass on these "tid bits" to future generation. As I
said my
fondest memories with the older ones in my family was their taking time to
play
such "trivial" games with me and my sister. It showed me that they cared
and loved
us enough to pass on something much more important than monetary
inheritances, but
something of our heritage. Greeting to you all David Strommen

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