LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 015.SEP.2000 (02) [S]

Tue Sep 5 14:24:08 UTC 2000

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From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 03.SEP.2000 (01) [S]

Ian wrate:

>John Tait wrote:
>
>> The boddom line here is at the word disna hae an 'ae soond' except
>in
>> dialects whaur the oreiginal phoneme happens ti hae merged wi that
>soond.
>
>Bot hou dis this maitter? A'm no allouan hit haes an 'ae soond', A'm
>juist sayan that wae ma seistem, final -ae is equivalent tae
>medial -ui- in the written leid. A'm uisean the -ae spellin in this
>final poseetioun acause hit's the commonmaist form in modren
>screiveins, no fur onie phonological groonds.
>
>Thai wud then be a case fur haean the spellins 'ti', 'wi' etc. fur tae
>show the differ atween thaim an 'dae' an siclik. Bot we'r loassan mind
>o the fact at we'l niver get a seistem whar aa the soonds bes richtlie
>tae represent - whit we'r wantan is a 'gremmatical seistem' sae as
>'native speakers' can read thair leid easie eneuch, an larnars disna
>kim/come foondert wae orra gremmatical differs in spellin.

This is no a aither/or atween phonological an gremmatical, cause the spellin
<daen> is no gremmatical aither.

Whit's happenin here is at ye'r chuisin ti emphasise gremmatical (I wad here
nerrae thaim doun ti morphological) criteria ower ithers in orthography. The'r
naething wrang wi that as a method, but it is juist ae method, an i this case
the gremmatical regularity is illusory oniewey. I wad threip at ye hiv ti
recognise etymological, phonological an morphological principles in Scots
spellin, an gin ye div, the'r boond ti be areas whaur ye hiv ti chuise ane or
the ither. Houaniver, I dinna think <daed, daen> qualifees under onie o thae
criteria, cause DAE is no the richt morpheme - it's juist a orthographic
accident. DUI is the richt morpheme here, an it haes been _misrepresentit_ as
DAE i the orthography. Sae the spellins <daed>, <daen>, etc. is naither
phonological nor morphological - thay'r orthographic an naething ither, an the
impression o regularity gien is a fause ane. The regularity can be gotten awa
wi in dialects whaur the /2/ diaphoneme happens ti be sayed [e] - an sae wad
dae aaricht for writin Ulster Scots on it's ain - but faas doon in ither
dialects whaur AE an UI is no sayed the same; an the raeson thay'r no sayed
the same is no juist at we canna represent soonds accurate. The soonds coud
verra easy be representit accurate as <dui>, <did>, <duin>, an this wad cover
aa dialects fine. Ti big the paradigm orthographically on the foond o a
phonological an morphological misallocation is juist ti eik ae mistak til
anither, an the regularity is no raelly gremmatical ava - it's juist a
fairlie, a slicht-o-spellin, gin ye like. As it staunds, <dae> disna cover the
variant pronunciations o [di] an [d2] at ye git in some airts, but <duin> dis
at laest cover [din] an [d2n], an it wad be a peity ti replace ae spellin
<dae> at disna represent the variants bi twa <dae> an <daen> at disna aither.
Like I say, aaricht for Ullans, but no for Scots as a hail.

Shortsomelike, gin final <ae> is equeivalent ti medial <ui>, than it's no
final in <duin> oniewey. Ti justifee <daen> ye hiv ti say at ye'r eikin the -n
ti the final morpheme o the ruit form <dae> - like in <haes>, <braes>, etc
(raither nor <his>, <brais>). But in thae cases <ae> dis represent the final
morpheme. In <dae> the final morpheme is UI, an this is whit the final -n maun
be eikit til ti gie a gremmatical, i.e. morphologica,l spellin. Ye canna caa a
spellin gremmatical bi eikin endins ti wrang spelt morphemes. It creates a
system ti leuk at, ay, but the system is no really thare. Morphological
spellins - like <haes> etc. - hauds wi the morpheme in spite o the
pronunciation; <daen> is haudin wi the pronunciation - o the ruit form in ae
group o dialects - in spite o the morpheme. It's no sae muckle gremmatical as
anti-gremmatical.

Ti mak oot at the ruit mak <dae> is morphologically richt spelt, ye maun uise
<ae> as a regular final form o <ui> - an it juist kythes in aboot three words,
mynd: shae, dae an tae - sae ye wad strictly need ti dae awa wi <ae> whan it
represents the /e/ phoneme finally - sae <brai> or <bray> raither nor <brae>,
<sai> or <say> raither nor <sae>, etc. Seems a lot mair raidical nor <dui>, at
naebodie can thole!

Fegs, I'm a thrawn (an repetitive) chiel gettin, but!

In the end, I wad say it aa byles doun ti whether ye want ti spell Ulster
Scots as a sindrie leid, or uise a orthography mair suitit ti Scots as a hail.
In Shetlandic I gang the ither gate, an spell <dui, duis, did, duin> ti
represent the morphemes, at haes a distinct soond in Shetlandic oniewey [d2:,
d2s, dId, d2n], cause I canna thole the <dae> spellin for Shetlandic (only
Lerwick fowk says that, an thay'v lairnt it frae Scotties...)

John.

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 02.SEP.2000 (01) [S]

Ron wrate:

>John, ye wrate:
>
>> this kynd o schizographic spellin (mukkil buckle, etc)
>
>Hah-hah!  "Schizographic"!  Braw!  Did ye mak it up yersel, an may
>oniebodie (~ onybody) eese it?

Dinna ken - mibbie I did mak it up aff the tap o my heid; dinna mynd seein it
naewey oniewey - an coorse oniebodie can uise it. Yer Scots is braw asweel,
gettin, except at 'may' soonds a bittie fantoush ti me in modren Scots i this
context (uisually 'can' i this context; 'micht' in ithers) an I see ye'r weel
inti the Doric <eese>!
>
>An Sandy wrate:
>
>> write "about", "out" for [V'bu?], [u?]
>
>A masel vote fer writin "ou" only gin the English cognate has "ou".  Bit ma
>vote disna coont ...  oops! ... count.  ;)

Coud ye gie's twa-three examples?

John M. Tait.

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 02.SEP.2000 (01) [S]

Sandy wrate:
>
>A wonder if it isna time we lat lowss o oor post-OorWullian
>nories an startit uisin a mair consistent (an for maist Scots,
>mair coothie (there! A did it!)) spellin that disna lippen ti
>English (or at laest disna _hiv_ ti ti leuk Scots!).

This soonds like my thochts _afore_ I got fankelt wi the spellin comatee,
Sandy! Houaniver, whan I cam ti see hou ither fowk spells (an ye canna
discoont enthusiasts' spellins aathegither, aither) I cam ti think at the'r
only twa weys o daein it. The problems is at (1) ye canna regularise on OU
cause o the <out>, <about> words at fowk wad pronunce the English wey for
shuir (btw, appearently some Scots fowk nou says <dour> as [dVur], likely
haein borraed it back frae the English via the TV) an (2) the'r a puckle words
at seems niver ti be written wi <oo> - couthie, dour, etc - an I jalouse
writin thaim wi <oo> wad be like tryin ti get fowk ti write <dui> an <tui>.

It seems ti me the'r only twa weys roond this:

1. Regularise on OU, except whaur English haes <ou> sayed [Vu].

2. Regularise on OO, except in words like _couthie_, _dour_, whaur the OU
spellin seems ti be estaiblisht. This coud be nerraed doun ti afore certain
consonants - e.g. TH (couthie, drouth), CH (souch), aften R (dour, stour), an
a puckle ither places - but complicate bi OO whaur English haes <ou> sayed
[Vu] (mooth, oor).

Baith o thir methods is completely orra an unprincipled (schizographic!), an
depends on English; but the first ane is the laest complicate, an sae I wad
say it's the lesser o twa ills. It dis, houiver, hae the draaback o bein mair
enthusiast-like an less popular (SNDA) like. On the ither haund, I dout at OU
in common words like _toun_, _doun_ etc. is a lot mair acceptable - haes mair
precedent -  nor EI in anes like _neip_ an _reik_.

>
 A noticed that oot o a list
>o mibbie a hunder words wi the [nS] soond in them, aa wis spelled
>wi /nch/ forby "glunsh" an "dunsh". This lat me see that rare
>"Scots-only" spellins like "glunsh", "dunsh" an (jist in
>post-OorWullian writin, A doot) "Frensh" is irreglar spellins
>an should be written "glunch", "dunch" an "French" - the'r nae
>need for this irregularity for that the'r nae [ntC] consonant
>clister in Scots ava. Ye see the advantage o text ower dictionars
>here - the dictionars haes juist wirds peculiar ti Scots an sae
>disna lat ye see the hale pictur.

Ay - airguin frae antrin orra parteiculars ti generalities is a faut o the RWS
approach. David Purves haes sayed recent like at, gin we thole KK in _makkin_
an _takkin_, whit wey no aawey (except in 'English' words, i coorse). The
<nsh> spellin is, I seem ti mynd, anither RWS recommend, on the same kynd o
foond. But like ye say, maist o thir kynds o spellins is _exceptions_ ti the
general trend, an tryin ti regularise thaim maks aathing leuk like exceptions!
Mibbie no an awfu scienteific thing ti say, but ye ken whit I mean. Personally
I wad duin awa wi the exceptions aathegither an haen 'mackin' an 'tackin',
etc; but that disna gang doun weel aither!

John M. Tait.

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