LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 09.SEP.2000 (01) [D/E/F]

Sat Sep 9 18:37:46 UTC 2000

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From: david strommen [si00924 at navix.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (11) [E]

Modern Low Saxon (Low German) also a verb-derived (/köör-/)
adjective/adverb with /-S/: _köörsch_ ~ _küürsch_ ~ _krüüsch_ (metathesis)
'choosy', 'picky' (mostly with reference to food) (> Missingsch
_krü(ü)sch_); e.g., ...

He is asig krüüsch 'He is awfully choosy', 'He is a terribly picky eater'
Nu wees maal nich so krüüsch! 'Don't be so picky!'

Thanks for the jog in my memory.  We in Scandinavian have the word "kresen"

for choosey "Du er alldeles kresen", meaning you are a picky or very
choosey
person.  I couldn't get it that we didn't have some sort of connection with

the Low German here, that also helped me with the connection with English
word
Choice too for that matter. Thanks Ron
 With regards og hilsen David

----------

From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (05) [E]

Dear Reinhard,

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Thanks for your responses, Henry and Floor.
>
> Floor, this may be a stupid question.  What does "WNT" stand for?

Sorry for using slang here. WNT stands for "Woordenboek der
Nederlandsche Taal", a dictionary collecting `all' Dutch sources from
1500 to 1921. I have a CD-ROM version of almost the complete works. The
complete paper version was finished only two years (I think) ago, later
than the 1995 CD. This dictionary is said to be the largest one in the
world, having 42,000 pages.

Kind regards,
Floor.

----------

From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (11) [E]

Dear Reinhard,

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
<...>
> Modern Low Saxon (Low German) also a verb-derived (/köör-/)
> adjective/adverb with /-S/: _köörsch_ ~ _küürsch_ ~ _krüüsch_
(metathesis)
> 'choosy', 'picky' (mostly with reference to food) (> Missingsch
> _krü(ü)sch_); e.g., ...
>
> He is asig krüüsch 'He is awfully choosy', 'He is a terribly picky eater'

> Nu wees maal nich so krüüsch! 'Don't be so picky!'

This might not be as modern as you think.

Below I give some quotes from WNT about _keuren_ e.a. - of course note
especially KEUR (II)

*** Begin quotes

KEUREN — KOREN (thans nog gewestelijk) —, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Mnl.
coren, keuren, mnd. koren (waarvan misschien deensch kaare, zw. kora),
nhd. kuren, küren. Van KEUR (I). Voor den vorm KOREN, verg. ook BEKOREN.
(...)
II) Keur, in de bet. II).
I) Bedr. — Kiezen, uitkiezen, verkiezen.

*****

KEUR (I) — KEURE —, znw. vr., voorheen (en gewestelijk nog) ook manl.
Mnl. core (koor ook later nog, b.v. bij VONDEL 2, 51), keure m. en vr.,
mnd. köre, kör, os. kuri m., ofri. kere m. en vr., ags. cyre m., mhd.
küre, kür, ohd. churi m. (nhd. kur, b. v. in kurfürst). Verg. ook on.
kør onz., Van Kiezen. Met de volgende beteekenissen.
(...)
II. Keuze, verkiezing, in verschillende opvattingen, abstract en
concreet.
(...)

KEUR (II), bnw. Keurig, kreen, kiesch, kieschkeurig. In Groningen en in
't aangrenzende OostFriesland (kör,
bij TEN DOORNK. KOOLM. 2, 328 b). || Hein is slim keur op 't eetn, TER
LAAN. Hai zel wel nooit gain vrauw kriegn, hai is weuls te keur, Ald.

****

KOREN (III), bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Mnl. coren; mnd. coren; zie nog
HOEUFFT, Bred. T. 292. Oude vorm, wellicht zooals (be)koren op westgerm.
*korôn of *korên teruggaande, naast Keuren. || Keuren, oft koeren,
PLANT. — Terwijl haer d'ossen lieten De basterd (soort van wijn) eerst
gekoort recht tusschen d'hoornen gieten, VONDEL 1, 710.

Aanm. Misschien is koren in het volgende geldersche pinksterlied
hetzelfde woord. || De pinksterbruid Die gaat
vooruit, Haar voetjes willen niet koren, En als ze dan niet koren wil,
Dan gaat de bruid verloren (± a°. 1850).

**** End quotes

Also, to support your idea for a link between _kiezen_/_choose_ and
_kören_/_keuren_

*** Begin quote

KIEZEN, bedr. (en onz.) st. ww., imperf. koos, mv. kozen (ouder, en nu
geheel verouderd, koren); part. perf. gekozen (ouder, doch niet geheel
verouderd, gekoren). Mnl. kiesen (imperf. coos (coor), mv. coren
(cosen), part. perf. gecoren), os. kiosan, ofri. kiâsa, ags. cêosan
(eng. choose), ohd. chiosan (nhd. kiesen), got. kiusan.

*** End quote

The older imperf. 'koren' and part. perf. 'gekoren' seem to support your
idea that Dutch _kiezen_ and LS _kören_/Dutch _keuren_ (to test for
selection) are related. Note also the umlauting in the Dutch word
_keuze_ (choice).

Kind regards,
Floor van Lamoen.

----------

From: FryskeRie Friesenrat [fryskerie at altavista.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology"

Niels skreaun:
>       Ofrisian: _ciâsa_

Krekt, mei dêrnjonken de foarmen _kiasa_ en _kera_ (Nijfrysk:
tsjiezje/kieze, karre [WLF], kiise [NF, Mooringer], keure [Sealterfrysk]).
Yn Halbertsma syn Lexicon Frisicum komt _wale_ ek foar. Halbertsma jout as
betsjutting 'veranderen'. Sjoen syn foarbyldsin:

_It waalt het weer dat it iis_
('It waalt wat waar dat it is')

en de Fryske oanstriid om it waar te personifisearjen ('It wol reine', 'It
stiet op skiten en spuien' en mear fan dat moais)liket in betsjutting
'kieze'lykwols net útsletten.

It moderne Sealterfrysk hat beide _wêle_ en _wêlje_. No seit dat yn it
Sealtersk net altyd it measte, mar it foarkommen fan de útgong -je makket
in ûntliening oan it Heechdútsk alteast in bytsje ûnwierskynliker.

Henk Wolf

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:

>I was very interested to find the Scots verb _wale_ 'to choose', 'to
elect'.
>(I assume it is pronounced [we:l].)  It appears to be a cognate of German
and
>Low Saxon _wählen_  'to choose', 'to elect' (the noun 'election' or
'choice'
>being _Wahl_).
>
>I am not sure if Low Saxon _wä(h)len_ [ve:ln] and _Waal_ ~ _Wahl_ [vQ:l]
are
>inherent or German loans.  Does anyone know?  They coexist with _kören_
>[kø:An] and _Köör_ [kø:A] with the same respective meanings.
>
>Is _wale_ inherently Scots, i.e., is there an Old English ancestral word?
>Modern English does not seem to have a cognate.  Or does it?  A loan from
>Dutch?  I don't find cognates in Modern Dutch and Afrikaans.  Or are there

>any?  A Saxonism?  A Low Saxon loanword (Hanseatic connection)?

Both the Concise Scots Dictionary and Chambers English Dictionary (which
cites many Scots words) give Old Norse _val_, choice, as the source.

It is pronounced [we:l]  though I'm not sure how the length here relates to
the SVLR. Perhaps it is /wel/ phonologically - it could be that I am
interpreting the vowel as long because, in Shetlandic, the velarised /l/ -
which the word has both in Scots and Shetlandic - occurs only after a long
/e:/ (as in e.g. _hail_/he:l/) not after a short /e/ (as in _hael_/hel/,
whole) where the /l/ is palatalised. Because _wale_ rhymes with _hail_
rather than with _hael_ in Shetlandic, the vowel sounds 'long' to me, and
in Shetlandic would certainly be /we:l/ as opposed to that in _hael_, which
would be /hel/. But in Scots, where the velarised /l/ is universal and
there does not seem to be a distinction in pronunciation between the
cognates of English _hail_ and _whole_, it may be that the phonological
representation need not indicate length.

John M. Tait.

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (03) [E]

R. F. Hahn wrote:
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I was very interested to find the Scots verb _wale_ 'to choose', 'to
elect'.
> (I assume it is pronounced [we:l].)  It appears to be a cognate of German

and
> Low Saxon _wählen_  'to choose', 'to elect' (the noun 'election' or
'choice'
> being _Wahl_).
>
> I am not sure if Low Saxon _wä(h)len_ [ve:ln] and _Waal_ ~ _Wahl_ [vQ:l]
are
> inherent or German loans.  Does anyone know?  They coexist with _kören_
> [kø:An] and _Köör_ [kø:A] with the same respective meanings.
>
> Is _wale_ inherently Scots, i.e., is there an Old English ancestral word?

> Modern English does not seem to have a cognate.  Or does it?  A loan from

> Dutch?  I don't find cognates in Modern Dutch and Afrikaans.  Or are
there
> any?  A Saxonism?  A Low Saxon loanword (Hanseatic connection)?
>
Wale doesn't mean 'elect' in the sence of a 'political' election.
More 'pick', 'choose', 'select'
It seems to be from Old Norse val.

Colin wrote:
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (03) [E]

>At 09:11 08/09/00 -0700, R. F. Hahn wrote:
>>I was very interested to find the Scots verb _wale_ 'to choose', 'to
elect'.
>>(I assume it is pronounced [we:l].)

>In the north-east, at least, it rhymes with "while".
Also NEC. [w at il]

In  Renfrewshire, Galloway and Ulster [wAl] also exists

This "change" from /e/ to /@i/ is interesting. Some time ago I inquired
about this. To quote Paul Johnston in The Edinburgh History.

P461
"Wame (wait etc. ) undergoes Post-Velar Dissimilation quite regularly, with

little lexical conditioning, resulting in transfer to BITE. In mid-northern

dialects other consonants besides a preceeding /w/ can trigger the change
including the dark /l/, so claes [kle:z] becomes [kl at iz]. It is likealy
that
north Aberdeenshire is the focal area of this diphthongisation. The change
is quite natural given that /w/ and /l/ have low second formants, which
would tend to lead to some sort of backing, especially in the first mora of

the vowel next to it. Second elements away from it would tend to front,
leading to a mutual dissimilation or 'disproportionation'."

Cf. also cuit [kwit], guid [gwid], schuil [skil] etc.

P456
"The diphthongisation of MEET to merge with BITE after /W M/, so that wheen

becomes whine, is the most restricted of the various Post-Velar
Diphthongisation rules affecting front vowel classes in the north-east."
e.g. weave, weed [w at iv],[w at id]

Is it possible for someone to explain the obove in 'layman's terms'?

Andy

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