LL-L: "Help needed" LOWLANDS-L, 23.SEP.2000 (03) [D/E]

Sat Sep 23 19:15:01 UTC 2000

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 23.SEP.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
  =======================================================================

From: Pepijn Hendriks [pepijnh at bigfoot.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Help needed" LOWLANDS-L, 21.SEP.2000 (02) [D/E/LS]

Henry,

>>>Lierendräiher [lierendreier] "organ-grinder"? "someone who does
>>>no serious work"?

[...]

>>Could this be the same word as "lurendrejer" in Danish?

[...]

>That reminds me of the Low-Saxon saying "iemand 'ne luur drejen",
>which means "to trick someone". So a "luurdrejer" (fictive) would be a
>trickster. Interesting.

Deze uitdrukking heb je in het Nederlands natuurlijk ook: _iemand
een loer draaien_ 'to trick someone'.

>>Dat doet me eraan denken dat mijn vader in zijn Nederlands een serie
>>alternatieven gebruikt voor _niets_ of _niks_: nakkes, naches,
>>nagges, nachies, noppes. Alleen de laatste vorm wordt in Van Dale
>>gegeven. Waar die woorden vandaan komen, weet ik niet. Zijn er andere
>>Lowlanders die ze kennen?
>Niks, nakkes, noppes en al dat soort varianten zijn in heel Nederland
>wel bekend denk ik.

_Nakkes_ ken ik niet, maar dat kan aan mij liggen natuurlijk. Het
rijtje dat ik meestal gebruik is iets als "niks, nada, noppes, niente,
rien".

-Pepijn

--
 pepijnh at bigfoot.com -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~pepijnh -- ICQ - 6033220

----------

From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen [baxichedda at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Help needed"

Hello -

Henry wrote:
>> We also have "luren" in the meaning of "secretly
>> observating" of course.

Ron answered:
> It's used like that in most Low Saxon (Low German)
> dialects of Germany also,
> written _luren_ or _luurn_ [lu:An], something like
> 'to secretly watch (in a
> suspicious manner)'. (...)
> I think the implication is something like "to
> quietly wait for something
> expected and then get in on the act", really not to
> far off from the original
> meaning "to lie in ambush (ready to pounce)".

This solved my question before I got to ask it... The
verb "lure" in Danish is used in the exact same ways,
so I guess that's were we got it from...
"Lure" by us is used also in combinations like
"lurepasse" (hesitate, await a situation), "luresove"
(pretend to be asleep).
"Lure" is also used, mostly in Jutland, as an
exclamation of slight surprise, eg.: "Lur mig, om ikke
det er naboen!" ("cheat me if...", meaning: well, I'll
damned if it isn't my neighbour!)
"Lure" is done by danger, a dangerous person or
animal... eg. "tigeren lurede i graesset" - the tiger
was lurking in the grass... Not to mention the
"lurer", who is someone spying on other peoples'
windows.
Would "to lurk" not be of the same origin as
"lure(n)"?

Greetings, Lone E. Olesen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Help needed

Hi, Lone, Lowlanders!

Thanks for that added information (above), Lone.  I personally always enjoy
finding connections, especially borrowings, between our Low Saxon (Low
German) and Danish, my second foreign language that I enjoy very much.
Information about Southern Jutish is particularly welcome, because it is
difficult to come by otherwise, and that dialect group or language (which
ever way you prefer) is a link between Lowlands languages (West Germanic
["proper"]) and Scandinavian (North Germanic).

If /luur/ is indeed a Low Saxon loan, it must be an old one, because it
exists in Norwegian and Swedish also, in Norwegian as a noun and as a verb,
and in Swedish apparently only as a noun.  The meaning seems to be pretty
much the same in all Scandinavian varieties.  However, it seems to me that
there is an emphasis on the element "secret(ly)" (i.e., 'to watch secretly'
> 'to lurk') with an extension to 'to cheat', 'to trick', 'to fake' (and
the nominal equivalents).  That this occurs in farwestern Low Saxon and
Dutch also (as kindly pointed out by Henry and Pepijn) leads me to suspect
that this semantic element has been lost in many other Low Saxon varieties,
because I am only aware of the meaning 'to lurk', 'to lie in ambush', 'to
lie in wait', not 'to cheat', 'to trick', 'to fake'.

Of course, the same applies to the German cognates _lauern_ and _Lauer_.

The etymology of English _lurk_ seems to be unclear.  Personally, I favor
the notion that it comes from the same root as /luur/ with the frequentive
/-k/ suffix as also found for instance in _talk_ whose root is related to
_tale_ and _tell_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
    to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
    <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
    type of format, in your submissions
  =====================================================================