LL-L: "Place names" LOWLANDS-L, 07.APR.2001 (04) [E]

Sun Apr 8 02:38:51 UTC 2001

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 07.APR.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Place names" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (08) [E]

A chairde,

Ian wrote:

> Even those with authority are yet to
> define Ulster
> Scots' relationship to Scottish Scots. This is a
> fundamental problem.
> My own view is that it is almost indisputable that
> Ulster Scots is a
> variant of Scots, with a common literary heritage
> (clearly
> distinguishable from that of English, even including
> its own verse
> forms) and without a clearly distinguishable
> linguistic boundary from
> south of Ballymena to north of Aberdeen.

Perhaps this is my own prejudice - a liking for
packaging Scotland and Ireland into neat, separate but
mutually embracing neighbours - but I find it
difficult to stomach Ulster-Scots being some variant
of a Scots language. Doesn't this rather make a
mockery of the inclusion of "Ullans" as a separate
category on this list? If Ulster-Scots is just a
variety of Scots, why not also have separate
categories of Aberdeen Scots, Edinburgh Scots,
Dumfries Scots, etc.? Of course I am arguing from the
viewpoint that "languages" don't exist as such - as I
have argued strongly for, they are just phyla of local
"mother tongues". Over-arching terms are lazy, and
impeding.

> On my
> journeys through
> Scotland, listening to the same music, reading the
> same poetry [...] the notion that Ulster Scots is a
> distinct language from
> Scottish Scots becomes patently absurd.

Clearly this is something we will agree to disagree
upon. It is flippant to say, but the situation between
Ulster-Scots and Scots proper parallels that of Irish
and Scots Gaelic: both exist as brushstrokes in a vast
Gaelic swathe extending from Rinn in Co. Waterford
northeastwards and then northward up to Cape Wrath in
Highland. The same gradual fading of one variety into
the other occurs, and as an Irish speaker I can with
some effort understand Scots Gaelic (Ulster Irish is
medial between Connacht Irish and south-west Scots
Gaelic).

I find no difficulty in referring to them as separate
languages: if only because they are spoken in
different countries with variance. A Scots Gaelic
speaker would not refer to themselves as speaking
"Irish". Nor would an Irish speaker say their language
was "Scots Gaelic". The unifying term is "Gaelic" (Ir.
"Gaeilge, Gaeilige" and S. Gael. "Gáidhlig") of course
and that circumnavigates the political boundaries.
Perhaps Ulster-Scots/Scots proper requires a neutral
unifying term?

>it is somewhat of a paradox
> that they should
> seek to differentiate themselves from Scots in order
> to illustrate
> their 'Unionist' identity!

What is the relationship of Ulster-Scots (insofar as
it is abused as a political tool) to "Northern Ireland
nationalism"? Do some loyalist groups see it as the
ethnic language of their community, with the inference
that in a theoretical independent "Northern Ireland"
state Ulster-Scots would be the official language?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

------------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Place names" LOWLANDS-L, 06.APR.2001 (02) [E/LS]

A chairde,

I'm not sure how relevant this irrelevancy is *laughs*
but I was wondering the context of Low Saxon [o] as a
suffix if any of the list could help with another one
of my "little linguistic problems".

As I showed in the short place-name list from the Long
Eaton area, a town named Stapleford is in Long Eaton
English "Stabbo". This is the only occurence of
place-name abbreviation to [o] in my language and I
can't seem to find its source. Is it some dimunitive
that has been imported? In L.E.E., [o] is not a
recognised dimunitive - the usual one is typical
northern English /ie/ ([i:] so that "James" becomes,
as elsewhere, "Jammie" [d3ae:mi:j] and so on - and it
seems to me to be some relic of a vocative (cf:
Serbo-Croat [o:] as in "Damiro" voc. of "Damir" and
"Slobo" voc. of "Slobodan"). But how would/could a
vocative come to be used with regard to a placename?

I am reminded of the distinction carried on in the Six
Counties with regard to a dimunitive of the name
"Provisionals" (i.e., the Provisional Irish Republican
Army). It is something of a shibboleth - in this case,
folkloric rather than real - that Unionists refer to
the IRA as the "Provos" and the republicans to them as
the "Provies", with the slight change in sound
supposedly implying a great condemnative/accepting
reference. (Although in practice most republicans call
the IRA "the Provos" too, or just "the boys"/"the
lads".)

Could I be on the right track? I hope you can help.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

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