LL-L: "Help needed" LOWLANDS-L, 12.AUG.2001 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.AUG.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Frans Buter" <frans at buter.myweb.nl>
Subject: LL-L: "Help needed" LOWLANDS-L, 11.AUG.2001 (01) [E]

> Een yugelyck mach tymmeren ende metsen opt duyterste van synder erven,
> ende soe nae eens anders erve alst hem belieft, maer moet alsdan up syn
> vuyterste erve bliven, syn ankerhoodt binnen synen muere houden ende
> entrecken.
Dear Pat,

I think erven (plural) (erf (singular)) is the same word with the same
meaning as is used nowadays and is Dutch for premises. The top line f.i. =
"Iedereen mag timmeren en metselen op het uiterste van zijn erf";
"Everybody
may carpenter and lay bricks at the utter boundary of his premises".

----------

From: Rudi Vari <rudi at its.co.za>
Subject: LL-L: "Help needed" LOWLANDS-L, 11.AUG.2001 (02) [E]

Jaap Engelsman wrote:

> As to the earlier matter:
>
> >Een yugelyck [read: yegelyck] mach tymmeren ende metsen opt duyterste
> >van synder erven, ende soe nae eens anders erve alst hem belieft, maer
> >moet alsdan up [read: op] syn vuyterste erve bliven, syn ankerhoodt
binnen
>
> >synen muere houden ende entrecken [read: intrecken]
> (corrections from WNT on cd-rom)
>
> >Do you have any ideas about 'erve(en)'?
> >I had translated it in my mind as 'beam' as I went along, but
> >'erf/erven' only appears in my dictionary as 'inheritence' and 'yard',
> >neither of which make any sense here.
>
> Frans Buter wrote:
>
> >It looks like the same is meant with duyterste and vuyterste. Maybe it's
a
>
> >grammatical difference? It must mean "uiterste" (utter/utmost). "Metsen"

> >isn't modern Dutch. It's common in Flanders and some bordervillages
> >in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen and is synonymous with then ABN-word "Metselen".
> >Similar with the profession, in ABN: "Metselaar", in Flanders: "Metser".

>
> I would say _duyterste_ is indeed a contraction of _de uiterste_ (modern
> spelling) "the farthest, the extreme".
> _vuyterste_ is simply _uiterste_.
> _erve_ must be "parcel, lot, piece of land" (modern Dutch _perceel_).
>
> The whole should probably be translated something like:
>
> Anyone may put up wooden constructions and masonry at the furthest end
(the
>
> border) of his parcel, and as near another's parcel as he pleases, but he

> must then keep to the furthest end of his parcel, keep his _muuranker_
> (clamp?) within his wall, and retract it.

This translation seems to me to be very sensible.
I would like to comment though about the word 'erven'. In Afrikaans we have

'erf' plural 'erwe', meaning a plot of land on which you would build your
house. It seems to be entirely plausible that this was derived from
'erven'.
However, Afrikaans also has the word 'perseel', probably more for land that
is
used for business ('besigheidsperseel'. OK, what am I saying? Most probably

that both of these words describe more or less the same thing.
Kind regards
Rudi Vári

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

I, too, find it entirely plausible that the verb _erven_ is at the root
here.  In Low Saxon (Low German), due to the shift /erC/ > /arC/, we have
the verb _arven_ ['?a:v=m] ~ _arben_ ['?a:b=m] 'to inherite' (cf. German
_erben_).  The (neuter gender, uncountable) noun derivative is _Arv_ ~
_Arv_ [?a:f] 'inheritance' (cf. German _Erbe_), used mostly in
Schleswig-Holstein dialects, elsewhere _Arvdeel_ ~ _Arfdeel_ ['?a:fdE.Il]
(cf. German _Erbteil_) or _Arvschop_ ~ _Arfschop_ ['a:fSOp] ~ _Arvschup_ ~
_Arfschup_ ['?a:fSUp] (cf. German _Erbschaft_).  I have come across these
nouns as denoting 'inherited real estate' or 'inherited land' (or both).
It is not a great leap from this to the meaning 'property' (in the real
estate sense).

> Iedereen mag timmeren en metselen op het uiterste van zijn erf.

My translation then:
"Anyone may build structures of wood or brick up to the very edge (~
boundary) of his property."
(using "he" in keeping with the tone of the times).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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