From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 16:36:29 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:36:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 01.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.FEB.2001.083629.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 =======================================================================

From: David Wilson [scots.whacan at virgin.net]
Subject: FRISIAN at the University of Amsterdam

Just a brief reminder....

From: Gorter <<mailto:dgorter at fa.knaw.nl>dgorter at fa.knaw.nl>
To: UvA-Frysk <<mailto:Uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl>Uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Frisian at the university of Amsterdam

Dear colleague,

The Dean of the Faculty of Humanities of the Universiteit van Amsterdam
proposes to close down the study programme in Frisian. The Dean wants to
'exchange' Frisian against Modern-Greek at the State University of
Groningen. If these plans are implemented, it means that one can study the
Frisian language at university level in only one place in the Netherlands.

    When you agree with us that this is an ill-fated plan that has to be
removed as quickly as possible, please send a letter or an email to the
Board of
the Universiteit van Amsterdam
<mailto:mstorm at bdu.uva.nl>mstorm at bdu.uva.nl> as well as to the Dean
of the Facultyof Humanities
<mailto:bestuur.decaan.gw at hum.uva.nl>bestuur.decaan.gw at hum.uva.nl>.
When you want to know more, please contact us. (Please also send a copy of
your reaction to one of us).
We want to thank you in advance for your support.

Sincerely,
Prof dr Ph.H.Breuker
Prof dr D. Gorter

Email: <mailto:uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl>uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl
postal address: Oplieding Frysk, P.O. Box 54, 8900 AB Ljouwert/Leeuwarden,
The Netherlands

Postal addresses of the University:
Board of the Universiteit van Amsterdam, Spui 21, 1012 WX Amsterdam, The
Netherlands

 Dean Faculty of Humanities, Prof dr K. van der Toorn, Spuistraat 134,
1012 VB Amsterdam, The Netherlands

----------------------------------------------------------------
                            Nicholas   Ostler
                                President
               Foundation for Endangered Languages
                   Registered Charity 1070616

            Batheaston Villa,  172 Bailbrook Lane
              Bath           BA1 7AA        England
         +44-1225-85-2865 fax +44-1225-85-9258
                  nostler at chibcha.demon.co.uk
                      http://www.ogmios.org
        http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Philosophy/CTLL/FEL/

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 18:26:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:26:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 01.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.FEB.2001.102654.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 01.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

A chairde,

It was with abject deject horror and dismayed despair
that I read the proposal to "barter" Frisian for
Modern Greek at the State University of Groningen.
Such an action is detrimental and destrcutive to the
propogation of Frisian, and, by extension to both the
Frisian-speaking community and Frisians in general.
Too often has cool rationale led to the "inevitable
and necessary" extirpation by stealth of our
languages. I represent Cornish and Irish Gaelic; how
many other languages, Lowland languages yet, are
expected to keep quiet, die on the tongue, and be
buried without a linguistic gravestone?

Language preservation is not the key. That is a false
nostalgia that can serve only to destroy a language
and ensure its inferiority to a superstrate "killer
tongue" such as English. It will be remembered that
language is, above all else, a means for communication
between human beings. Everything else associated with
language is secondary - even nation, pride,
self-esteem, and so forth. A language is a motion of
the tongue and, as such, a part of being human. And so
to quietly deny the right of a language to be spoken,
or to make it as difficult as possible to speak a
language, or to relegate the language through bizarre
imperialist convention is not "language death" - it is
language murder.

And how much language murder have we seen? How much
blood crusts the vowels and consonants of English, or
French, or Castillian? While we have the chance, and
the choice, and the freedom to act, we cannot allow
Frisian to be railroaded to a siding and left to rust,
a disused vehicle. Because to do that is to denigrate
Frisian speakers and disenfranchise them of their
fundamental human rights. Let not Frisian become Ubyk,
dying away on an old man's lonely lips - let it live,
let it explode with verve down Frisian streets, from
Frisian children, in Frisian schools, in Frisian
homes; above all, let not Frisian be left to a
hearth-fate, private language, coveted by a few who
have to switch to Dutch in the wider world context.
Frisian needs as many outlets for its propogation as
it can: that means all the schools; all the homes; all
the Universities; the hospitals, the streets, the
churches, the mosques, the synagogues, everywhere.

So how should we go about doing this? If you've read
this far you're probably convinced that I'm an
eccentric linguistic polemicist, an out-of-date
extremist ideologue, washed-up on history and atavism.
Not so. What I want is for all of us on Lowlands-L to
use our collective will and whatever influence we have
to pool our support for Lowland languages. We can't
really afford to argue and procrastinate over whether
one of us is a little more energied and vigoured in
his resistance than the rest. All support is support
nonetheless and must be pooled.

Petitions, pickets if you live in Fryslan, deluge of
protest snail and e-mail to the occupation Ministry in
the Netherlands, vituperate indignation to the régime
in Ljouwert. What is the remit of the Fryslan
government? Is it to protect Frysk and Frisian
culture? If it is, then it is destroying its own
validity in allowing Greek to replace Frysk at a
University. Greek has hundreds of courses, and
thousands of learners. What of Frysk? Is there a
Department of Frisian at the University of Athens, or
Lefkosia? There isn't. Frisian is a phenomenon that
cannot, will not and should not be stifled.

Look at Cornish. Look at Polabian. Look at Euskara and
at Irish. Look at Gáidhlig. Look at Manx. Look, and
see the morgue of languages. Look, and realise that
all threats - such as disposession of Frysk from a
University - are but bullets in the pistol to the
language murderer.

And do we want to stand idly by? It starts with
Universities, and ends with lonely dying speakers,
reminiscing on what should have and could have been.
If only we could have tried that little bit harder
whilst we had the chance.

We have that chance. Prepare your e-mails and your
slate mail. But most of all, don't give in. Take the
power Frisian needs and retain the power it already
has. Extirpation of language is an extirpation of a
people; and all people are human beings. Would you
collude in the denial of human rights?

Go raibh míle maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language policies

Below is a copy of my letter of appeal.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:41:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. F. Hahn" <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Frisian Studies Program
To: Dean <bestuur.decaan.gw at hum.uva.nl>, Board <mstorm at bdu.uva.nl>
CC: European Bureau of Lesser Used Languages - Dublin <eblul at indigo.ie>,
European Bureau of Lesser Used Languages - Brussels <eblul at eblul.org>, Fryske
Akademy <fa at fa.knaw.nl>, Omrop Fryslân <redaksje at omropfryslan.nl>

Dear Dean and Members of the Board,

It is with great alarm that I received the news that you are considering
closing the Frisian Studies Program at the University of Amsterdam.  I would
like to appeal to you to dismiss any such plans.

As you well know, Frisian is one of the official languages of the Netherlands
(and of Germany).  For this reason alone, opportunities for study and research
of it (and of Low Saxon) ought to be available at more than one of the
country's institutions.  One ought to assume that it has a secure place at the
most important institution of learning and research of the country's largest
city, a hub in a country that enjoys a global reputation of being exemplary,
forward-thinking and happily homogeneous.

Frisian and Low Saxon in addition to Dutch are mainstays of the Netherlands'
native ethnic and linguistic diversity, which is clearly an asset and which
ought to be cherished, promoted and represented internationally as a part of
the country's image.  Removing the Frisian Studies Program from your
university would send a contrary signal internationally.  Furthermore, it
would signal to the international community of users, learners and researchers
of Frisian that the object of their love and interest is inconsequential, even
in the very country in which it is used.

Disregard and neglect have been consistent themes of the history of Frisian
(as of Low Saxon), being a minority language everywhere.  Those of us who
advocate and support continued use and research of Frisian (and of Low Saxon)
had thought that we were entering a better, kinder, more considerate and
enlightened era with the ratification of the European Languages Charter and
with the reemergence of Frisian (and Low Saxon) language awareness and pride.
News of the impending removal of the Frisian Studies Program from your
institution thus appears to be ill advised and regressive.  I therefore ask
you and your colleagues to dismiss this plan and to provide Frisian Studies a
secure place.

Thank you very much for your kind consideration.

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Seattle, USA
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 15:24:23 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:24:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 02.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.FEB.2001.072423.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 21.DEC.2000 (06) [E]

Hello all,

John Feather asked (in December already!):
Since my Greek is not up to much, may I have an explanation of the
translation, > 'eiapopeia, polei'

Wahrig's Deutsches Wörterbuch says "eia pop eia" means:
"wohlan, ha, wohlan".

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 15:36:26 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:36:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 02.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.FEB.2001.073626.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 Sorry, this went out under the wrong subject line.  RFH
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From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 21.DEC.2000 (06) [E]

Hello all,

John Feather asked (in December already!):
Since my Greek is not up to much, may I have an explanation of the
translation, > 'eiapopeia, polei'

Wahrig's Deutsches Wörterbuch says "eia pop eia" means:
"wohlan, ha, wohlan".

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 21:29:10 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:29:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.132910.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  =======================================================================

From: Catherine Buma [cpunzy at hotmail.com]
Subject: Frisian Language

All

Before I begin, I'd like to compliment Lowlands-L on being a quality
discussion group.  I've not seen a bit of pettiness or lack of
professionalism that seems to earmark so many other groups.  Keep up the
good work!

I have two questions really but they are both closely related so hopefully
they belong in the same posting. The first is concerning the number of
Frisian speakers that exist today, (By Frisian I am referring to 'West'
Frisian, not Sater or East).  I keep seeing the number 400 000 bandied
about
but I was wondering if this total takes into account the number of emigres
that exist worldwide or if this is just the Netherlands.

My second query is a bit of a curiosity.  I am aware that during the late
1940's and 1950's many Frisians emigrated to Canada, the US, New Zealand,
and Australia, (my parents were among this number, Canada being their
choice).  However, my mother mentioned that there was a region somewhere in

Russia, she wasn't sure where, that spoke fluent Frisian.  Growing up she
was always told to remember to pray for their fellow Frisians in the
Netherlands and Russia.  In fact, she mentioned that a close family friend,

who speaks Frisian himself, claims that his great-grandparents were Frisian

speakers from Russia. Has anyone heard anything about this?  Was this
merely
a group of Frisians who moved to Russia during the 1950's emigration or
does
it predate this time?

If anyone knows anything about this, please drop a line.  I am very
curious.

Thanks

Catherine Buma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 21:27:44 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:27:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.132744.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: historical backgrounds

I like old stuff, and this Saturday on the Brussels flee marked I got,
for a few dimes, a book from 1809:
- no author (may have to do with the French occupation)
- title: "Antiquitates Belgicae of Nederlandsche Oudheden... nieuwen
druk, vermeerderd met land-beschrijvings aenteekeningen..."
- printed: Tot Gend by C. J. Fernand, Boekdrukker, te Putte (I see a
contradiction between Ghent and Putte, I guess the printing place may be
false)

The date may be correct. The split-up of Westphalia is described in
detail, up to the treaty of Tilsit of July 9, 1807, as well as the
internal subdivisions of Dec 14 1807 (pp. 224-225)

The names for the Northern and Southern Netherlands (The North is still
a bit independent at the time):
- for the North:: De Vereenigde Provintien (follows the list of old
provinces, and the new departments of the kingdom of Holland since May
1806)
- for the South, the former "Katholyk Nederland of Nederlandsche
Provintien" (follows in some detail the old provinces and their division
into the new French  departments) (p. 12-13)

Comment: This odd name-giving is consistent with other sources from the
same period:
cf. on a map of Germany in the English edition of the Atlas historique
by Las Cases (1802-1804):
- the actual Belgium is called "Netherlands"
- the actual Netherlands is called "Holland"
(map reproduced on p. 36 in J. Black, Maps and history, Yale, 2000)

Back to the old book:
Where it may be rather correct for the actual politico-geographical
situation of the time, it is quite original on some historical matters:
(Many of you will damn it to trash; I'm sorry to have a somehow
different taste and admire what others dislike and "litter on flee
markets")

The Alsatians are also Saxons: "Edel-saxen":
quote p. 59:
... gelyk de Saxen, die een land, eertyds geheel boschagtig, bezaten,
waer van de Holt-Saxen (dat is Hout-Saxen) geheeten zyn, waer van het
zelve land nog in 't latyn Holsatia genoemt word; en de gene, die
_Edel-Saxen_ genoemt waeren, hebben den naem van Elsas, in 't latyn
Alsatia, aen hunne woon-plaets gegeven.

The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:
quote p.62
... Als Justus Lipsius van den oorsprong des naems der Saxen redekavelt,
... zegt ook, dat het werktuyg, waer mede men hier te lande het gras
afmaeyt, geheeten word een zeyssen, en de korte zweerden, die de oude
Saxen eertyds plegen te draegen, die zy seaxen noemden, waeren krom op
de wys van eene zeyssen, hebbende de snede op de omgekeerde buytenste
zyde, gelyk men zien kan in 't schild van den ouden Oost-Saxen koning
Erkinwyn, die dry van deze korte kromme zweirden of seaxen van zilver in
een rood veld voerde.

I spare you all the whole story of the origin of the Saxons,
an excerpt, p. 74:
Saxons of Saxen - De Saxen, een volk van de Schyten afkomstig, zyn uyt
Asia vertrokken ... etc.
... genaemt Sacae of Saci, een strydbaer en trots volk, dat den
groot-magtigen en brood-dronken koning Xerxes gedient heeft in de
ongehoorde, zwaere maer ongelukkigen krygs-togt tegen de Grieken...
etc... etc...

The origin of the Picts is also very clear (you just have to understand
some Dutch),
quote p. 75
De Picten - Dit is een volk, dat, als in het gemeen geloofd word, uyt
Schytiën in Schotland gekomen zyn, alwaer zy woon-plaets en verbond met
de Schotten maekten. Zommige schryvers bevestigen, dat zy, in Denemerken
komende, den naem van Picten kregen, om dat zy _picti_, dat is geverwt
waeren aen hunne naekten lichaemen, en zy de Orcadische eylanden voor-by
zeylende, zit-plaets namen omtrent Fida en Landonia, naer dat-ze de
vreede of wilde Britten verdreven hadden. Daer naer namen zy Schotsche
vrouwen, en maekten met hun een verbond, en zoo is met verloop van tyd
een volk daer uyt geworden.

etc etc

Shall I return the book to trash?

Regards,

Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 00:01:09 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:01:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.160109.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

Dear Lowlanders,

Roger Thijs wrote:

> 6. Egidiuslied
>
> This is a very old one, in old Dutch. De Standaard spells ij as ij, I'm
> used to see it spelled y, with the y pronounced as i (Nobody knows what
> variations of pronounciation it exactly had in it's time, I guess)
>
> It's about a soldier mourning about his fallen mate.
>
> Some modernisations for better understanding:
> bleven:              gebleven
> mi lanct na di:    Ik verlang naar jou
> Du coors:         Jij koos
> sneven:             sneuvelen
>
> ---
>
> Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
>
> Dat was gheselscap goet ende fijn.
> Net sceen teen moeste ghestorven sijn.
> Nu bestu in den troon verheven
> Claerre dan der zonnen scijn,
> Alle vruecht es di ghegeven.
>
> Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
>
> Nu bidt vor mi: ic moet noch sneven
> Ende in de weerelt liden pijn.
> Verware mijn stede di beneven:
> Ic moet noch zinghen een liedekijn.
> Nochtan moet emmer ghestorven sijn.
>
> Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.

As I am writing to you I am listening to my own copy of the following CD:

Paul Rans Ensemble, _Egidius waer bestu bleven: Gruuthuse Manuscript ca.
1380 - ca. 1390_, Eufora (1170), 1992. (Total 75'07")

I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in precontemporary Dutch
(or generally Lowlandic) poetry and music.  I enjoy these renditions
tremendously.  By the way, the lyrics are fairly easily understood my those
who understand Low Saxon, more easily than are Modern Dutch lyrics,
including Modern Flemish ones (though the latter tend to be easier than the
former).

The contexts:

01.  Wi willen van den kerels zinghen
02.  De capelaen van Hoedelem
03.  Mijn herte es sonder cnoop gheletst
04.  Comes Flandriae (Brugge, ca. 1381)
05.  God gheve ons eenen bliden wert
06.  Scinc her den wijn
07.  So wie bi nachte gherne vliecht
08.  Het was een rudder wael ghedaen
09.  Mijn hertze en can verbliden niet
10.  Ach zich voor dich
11.  Het soude een scamel mersenier
12.  Ic sach een scuerduere open staen
13.  De vedele es van so zoeter aert
14.  Wel op, elc zondich si bereit
15.  Dits een rondeel (Hulthem Ms, ca. 1380)
16.  Egidius waer bestu bleven
17.  Aluette voghel clein
18.  Ach Vlaendere (Thomas Fabri, ca. 1412)
19.  Melancolie
20.  Een wijf van reinen zeden
21.  Nieuwe jaer haet mich verhuecht

(Could 09, 10 and 21 be Limburgish?)

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 01:51:48 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:51:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.175148.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Reuben Epp [repp at silk.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

> From: Catherine Buma [cpunzy at hotmail.com]
> Subject: Frisian Language
>
> All
>
> My second query is a bit of a curiosity.  I am aware that during the late

> 1940's and 1950's many Frisians emigrated to Canada, the US, New Zealand,

> and Australia, (my parents were among this number, Canada being their
> choice).  However, my mother mentioned that there was a region somewhere
in
> Russia, she wasn't sure where, that spoke fluent Frisian.  Growing up she

> was always told to remember to pray for their fellow Frisians in the
> Netherlands and Russia.  In fact, she mentioned that a close family
friend,
> who speaks Frisian himself, claims that his great-grandparents were
Frisian
> speakers from Russia. Has anyone heard anything about this?  Was this
> merely a group of Frisians who moved to Russia during the 1950's
> emigration or does it predate this time?
>
> If anyone knows anything about this, please drop a line.  I am very
> curious.
> Thanks
> Catherine Buma

Dear Catherine and Lowlanders,

Your comments re Frisian in Russia sound like they are related to
Netherlandic Mennonites (Doopsgezinde) in Russia.

During the latter half of the 1500's many Anabaptists (Mennonites) left
the Frisian provinces of West Friesland, Groningen and East Friesland
to seek greater religious freedom for their unpopular Anabaptist beliefs.
They then spoke a mixture of Frisian, Low Franconian, Low Saxon
and Dutch dialects.

At that time, they settled in the Vistula/Nogat delta and Danziger
Werder of  West Prussia/Poland, where their dyke-building and
land-drainage skills and expertise were much in demand for reclamation
of the delta swamps for agriculture. They sojourned there for about
250 years, during which time their western Low Saxon/Low Franconian
dialects were replaced by the West Prussian Low Saxon dialect spoken
by their surrounding neighbours, a dialect that later came to be known
as Plautdietsch.

Before and after 1800, large numbers of them emigrated from Prussia
to the New Russia of Catherine the Great; sparsely populated, fertile
lands recently conquered from the Ottoman Empire. In these new
lands, the Mennonites were allowed to establish themselves in closed
villages where everyone spoke Plautdietsch.

Since then, those Mennonites have moved willingly or under
compulsion into various other regions of the former USSR (Russia),
including villages and settlements near Novosibirsk in Siberia, and
elsewhere. In those villages, Plautdietsch continued to be their daily
language. A few of those villages continue to exist today, although
greatly reduced in population numbers by emigration to Germany
of large numbers of them (100,000?) in recent decades. In Germany,
they are/were looked upon as German returnees (Heimkehrer)
because of their lengthy sojurn in Prussia, during which they had
adopted (in Prussia and Russia) the German language for worship
and written communication, while retaining their Prussian Low
Saxon dialect in daily speech.

Dr. Tjeerd de Graaf and student Rogier Nieuweboer, of the
University of Groningen, have written quite extensively about these
Mennonites since visiting and researching them in Siberia. Both
emphasize that appearances, customs and spoken word of the
Siberian Mennonites remind of their Frisian origins. De Graaf is
Frisian himself.

Perhaps these are the *Frisian* people that you have heard about
in Russia?
Cheers!
Reuben Epp

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 04:06:00 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:06:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.200600.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  =======================================================================

From: Catherine Buma [cpunzy at hotmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

>Perhaps these are the *Frisian* people that you have heard about
>in Russia?
>Cheers!
>Reuben Epp

Reuben (and other Lowlanders)

Thank you for the reply; it was very informative.

The only aspect of the conversation that I had with my mother that seems to

throw a little doubt as to this theory being the answer to my question is
the following:

My mother was aware that Mennonites existed in Russia, (or thereabouts) but

stressed that the Frisians in Russia that she was referring to spoke fluent

Frisian.

Then again perhaps it is the story of the Mennonites in Russia that got
exaggerated by the Frisian community here in Canada, qui sais?

Thanks again and take care.

Catherine Buma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 19:35:05 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:35:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.FEB.2001.113505.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 05.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  =======================================================================

From: Barbara Rentsch-Buschkoetter [rentschbuschkoetter at web.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Literature
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > 6. Egidiuslied
> >
> > This is a very old one, in old Dutch. De Standaard spells ij as ij, I'm

> > used to see it spelled y, with the y pronounced as i (Nobody knows what

> > variations of pronounciation it exactly had in it's time, I guess)
> >
> > It's about a soldier mourning about his fallen mate.
> >
> > Some modernisations for better understanding:
> > bleven:              gebleven
> > mi lanct na di:    Ik verlang naar jou
> > Du coors:         Jij koos
> > sneven:             sneuvelen
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> > Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> > Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
> >
> > Dat was gheselscap goet ende fijn.
> > Net sceen teen moeste ghestorven sijn.
> > Nu bestu in den troon verheven
> > Claerre dan der zonnen scijn,
> > Alle vruecht es di ghegeven.
> >
> > Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> > Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> > Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
> >
> > Nu bidt vor mi: ic moet noch sneven
> > Ende in de weerelt liden pijn.
> > Verware mijn stede di beneven:
> > Ic moet noch zinghen een liedekijn.
> > Nochtan moet emmer ghestorven sijn.
> >
> > Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> > Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> > Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.

Dear Ron,
As I've been collecting folksongs since the early 60s, I would be very much

interested in getting the tune for the song, too.

Best regards, Barbara

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

Dear Lowlanders,

I wrote:

> By the way, the lyrics are fairly easily understood my those
> who understand Low Saxon, more easily than are Modern Dutch lyrics,
> including Modern Flemish ones (though the latter tend to be easier than
the
> former).

This was poorly phrased.  What I meant to say was that I, and probably also
most others who understand Low Saxon/Low German of Germany, tend to have an
easier time understanding certain non-standard Dutch/Flemish dialects (of
both Belgium and the Netherlands) than understanding Standard Dutch.  The
medieval dialects of the songs seems particularly easy to my ear, because
Dutch had at that time not yet or not fully undergone /ii/ > /@i/
diphthongization (of what was then written as _i_, _ij_ or _y_.  The singer
pronounces them as [i:] or [Ii].  Thus, e.g., _mijn_ [mi:n] or [mIin] (now
[m at In]), _bi_ [bi:] or [bIi] (now [b at I]); cf. Low Saxon/Low German (_myn_
>) _mien_ [mi:n] and (_by_ >)  _bi(e)_ [bi:] respectively.

Barbara wrote (above):

>  As I've been collecting folksongs since the early 60s,

As have I, though unfortunately most of my collection got lost during one
of my several overseas moves.

> I would be very much
> interested in getting the tune for the song, too.

The CD comes with the words of the songs but unfortunately not with the
musical notation, Barbara.  Hopefully someone else can supply them.  I
would be interested in them too.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 19:40:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:40:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.FEB.2001.114018.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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  =======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "History"

Roger Thijs heeft geschreven:
Subject: historical backgrounds

> I like old stuff, and this Saturday on the Brussels flee
> marked I got, for a few dimes, a book from 1809:
> - title: "Antiquitates Belgicae of Nederlandsche Oudheden...

> Back to the old book: Where it may be rather correct for the
> actual politico-geographical
> situation of the time, it is quite original on some historical
> matters

Don't throw that away!  Its history is confused, but it is
historical confusion: it doesn't tell us what was going on 2000
years ago, but it does tell us what people -thought- had been
going on in 1809.  If you don't keep it, give it to a library or
a university!

The science of linguistics (an imperfect science to begin with)
had hardly even begun, so the author was free to indulge in
historical speculation (like the teacher of German I know of who
informed her class that Dachshunds mean "roof dogs"! (Dach =
roof, Hund = hound, but *Dachs* = badger.  She speculated that
they had short legs to walk on roofs, and didn't realize they
were bred to go into badger holes.)

> The Alsatians are also Saxons: "Edel-saxen":
> ... gelyk de Saxen, die een land, eertyds geheel boschagtig,
> bezaten,waer van de Holt-Saxen (dat is Hout-Saxen) geheeten

The author was half-right: Holsten was Holtsaten, and _Holt_
means woods, but a _sata_ meant a sitter/settler (cf. High
German _Insassen_).  By coincidence, Saxon/sahsan/Sachsen came
to be pronounced Sassen in Platt; maybe the author drew a false
connection between de sassesche spraek and words like Insassen.
I don't have any source handy for the origin of the name
Elsass/Alsace.  One researcher did seriously suggest that the
Alemanni (Swiss, Alsatians and Swabes) were indeed Saxons
(Frings early in this century): he noted that both have
Einheitsplural (only one ending, not 2 or 3 different endings
for verb plurals) and Nasalschwund: loss of n (finf > fiif
etc.).  Unfortunately, these features often happen, and the
Alemanni developed these features about a millenium after the
Lowland languages did.

> The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:

Well, _sahs_ did mean short sword, and came to be used for other
cutting tools.  I haven't seen it used to mean sickle, but I
could imagine it eventually was so used.  Does anyone know a
modern word _Sax_ or _Sass_ that means sickle?

> I spare you all the whole story of the origin of the Saxons,
> an excerpt, p. 74:
> Saxons of Saxen - De Saxen, een volk van de Schyten afkomstig,
> zyn uyt Asia vertrokken ... etc. ... genaemt Sacae of Saci

The Romans didn't know what to make of the Germani, and tended
to explain them as a variant of the familiar Scythian barbarians
of Scythia/the Ukraine.  It's since been discovered that the
Scythians were fairly clearly an Iranic people from an entirely
different branch of Indo-European, but into the early 1800's,
that hadn't been clear.

> Shall I return the book to trash?

Mistaken history is still very much history!  Besides, it can
teach us some humility for the mistakes we may make ourselves.

Stefan Jsrael

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 00:52:29 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:52:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.FEB.2001.165229.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: offline resources

It was announced some months ago, but I just got my copy today (for HFL
42.50) from the publisher "Van Corcum" in Assen, Nl. of:

Dr. G. H. Kocks, Woordenboek van de Drentse Dialecten, "Register
Nederlands-Drents"
ISBN 90 232 3649 1, xv + 312 pp. (clothbound)
It's a very condensed index (one word - to - just one word lemma's) but
very helpfull,
as the author states, quote in Dutch:
"... Iemand in Zeeland vindt nooit de Drentse woorden voor meisje als
hij niet weet dat hij moet zoeken bij wicht, deern of maagien..."

PS: This Index is a complement to the (Drents - Dutch):
"Woordenboek van de Drentse Dialecten"
by Dr. G. H. Kocks,
van Gorcum, Assen, Nl.
vol 1, A-L, 1996 ISBN 90 232 3176 7, lxix + 703 pp + map (clothbound)
vol 2, M-Z, 1997, ISBN 90 232 3177 5, viii+ pp 705-1504 + map
(clothbound)
set of the 2 vols, ISBN 90 232 3178 3

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Offline resources

Thanks for the excellent information (above), Roger!

I have added the said item under "Modern Low Saxon" and "Dictionaries" to
our "A Beginners' Guide to Offline Language Materials: Low Saxon (Low
German)":

http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/low_saxon_offline.htm

Do you happen to know the prices of the Dutch-Drents volumes?

We have similar resource guides for other Lowlands languages
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/guides_offline.htm).
Additions depend primarily on Lowlands-L subscribers' contributions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 15:39:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:39:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.FEB.2001.073932.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Offline resources
>
> Do you happen to know the prices of the Dutch-Drents volumes?

For the Drents-Dutch volumes:
Prices in the catalogue "Van Gorcum - Fondsenlijst - 2000-2001":

> From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
> "Woordenboek van de Drentse Dialecten"
> by Dr. G. H. Kocks,
> van Gorcum, Assen, Nl.
> vol 1, A-L, 1996 ISBN 90 232 3176 7, lxix + 703 pp + map (clothbound)

HFL 87.50

> vol 2, M-Z, 1997, ISBN 90 232 3177 5, viii+ pp 705-1504 + map
> (clothbound)

HFL 87.50

> set of the 2 vols, ISBN 90 232 3178 3

HFL 139.00

Regards,
Roger

-----

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Offline resources

Thanks, Roger.  I have added this information to the list
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/low_saxon_offline_3.htm).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 15:41:09 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:41:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.FEB.2001.074109.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]

Stefan Israel schreev:
>
>> The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:
>
>Well, _sahs_ did mean short sword, and came to be used for other
>cutting tools.  I haven't seen it used to mean sickle, but I
>could imagine it eventually was so used.  Does anyone know a
>modern word _Sax_ or _Sass_ that means sickle?
>
I only know of Dutch _zeis_ and Low-Saxon _seise_,
other than that, I can't come up with anything.

Henry

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 20:51:05 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:51:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.FEB.2001.125105.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Events

Dear Lowlanders,

Just now I received a copy of the latest issue of _Dat pommersche Blatt_ of
The Pommerscher Verein, Central Wisconsin.  You can find out more about the
association in the North American section of "Nu is de Welt platt!"
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm).  (Click on
any language button, and choose the North American section.)

Among other things, I found in this issue a language course announcement that
may be interesting to a number of you, especially those that live in North
America and will be able to spend four weeks in October in the Midwest.  You
will find the wording of the announcement farther down.  I have also added it
to the said webpage.  For further information please contact the association
(P.O. Box 358, Wausau, WI  54402-0358, USA; Telephone: 715.359.5189, Fax:
715.359.5816, Email: Zamzow at dwave.net).

Obviously, "Platt" here refers to Low Saxon/Low German.  (It is good news that
it is still spoken in Wisconsin.)  I am not sure, but I assume that the
dialect(s) taught will be Pomeranian.  These dialects, which tend to be
classified as "Eastern Low German" (a catch-all category), are quite similar
to those we know as "North Saxon" (of Northwestern Germany), and there is a
very high degree of mutual comprehension between the two.  Like all Eastern
Low German dialects, the Pomeranian ones have Western Slavic substrates or
influences, both lexical and morphological (e.g., the diminutive suffix _-ing_
~ _-ink_ < Pomeranian Slavic *_-inke_ < *_-inka_, e.g., _Mudding_ ~ _Muddink_
'Mommy').

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==begin quote==

"Conversational Platt" Class to be Offered

Ever wonder what those people are saying when they start "snacking" Platt?
Would you like to be able to participate with a few words of your own? Help is
on the way!

The Pommerscher Verein - Central Wisconsin is planning a brand new project. It
is a "Conversational Platt" course to be held this coming October. The class
will be 4 weeks long with 2 sessions per week of 2 hours in length.  The
current plans are for Monday and Wednesday evening beginning on October 1st
and ending on October 24th. These dates are still subject to confirmation. The
course will be held at the University of Wisconsin- Marathon County campus.

The expected enrollees will range from people with little or no knowledge of
Low German who want to learn something about it to those who are more fluent
but just want to participate to brush up on their skills.

The format will be informal and will be run by a "facilitator team" with an
emphasis on practical usage. Also included besides speech, will be some
historical background of Low German, its development and usage, its status
today, catch phrases and humor. The objective will be to learn something in a
relaxing environment and to have good time in the process. Send in the coupon
to get on the list.

==end quote==

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 15:31:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:31:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" (was "History") LOWLANDS-L,
 08.FEB.2001 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.8.FEB.2001.073132.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
> Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]
>
...
> >> The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:
> >
....
> I only know of Dutch _zeis_ and Low-Saxon _seise_,
> other than that, I can't come up with anything.
>
> Henry
>
Bi us küert sik dat Ding Seisse. Und ek heff mi lestet Jaohr noch
en nigges Seissenblatt kaupt. Wilen de Seisse beätter te bruken
es as düese saugenaimten elektrischen Fadenschneider.

Doch wo werd ne Sickel tau brukt? Kennt It irgend ne Arbeit, wo ne
Sickel wat bat?. Dat Dingen dögt doch för nix. Und düetwegen es
klipp und klaor, wenn It siett: I can't come up with anything.

Gued gaohn
Reiner

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Henry, Reiner, Leeglanners,

In de nordsassischen Dialekten heett ingelsch _scythe_ (< old-ingelsch _siðe
-- düütsch _Sense_) "Seeß" [zEIs] (f., p. _Seßen_ ['zEIs=n]) or _"Seiß" [zaIs]
(f., p. _Seißen_ ['zaIs=n]).

In de meersten nordsassischen Dialekten heett ingelsch _sickle_ (<
old-ingelsch _sicol_ < latiensch _secula_ > düütsch _Sichel_) _Sicht_ [zICt]
(f., pl. _Sichten_ ['zICt=n]).

De Diminutiv-Formen "Seßel" ['zEIs=l] (f., pl. "Seßeln" ['zEIs=ln]) or
"Seißel" ['zaIs=l] (f., pl. "Seißeln" ['zaIs=ln]) köönt "Seeß" (_scythe_) or
"Sicht" (_sickle_) bedüden.

Gröten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 19:19:34 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:19:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 09.FEB.2001 (01)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.FEB.2001.111934.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Offline resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Below is a list of noteworthy publications of the Fryske Akademy or
publications that can be purchased from the Akademy bookstore
(stijsma at fa.knaw.nl).  A more extensive list can be found and books can be
ordered from at <http://www.fa.knaw.nl/>.  I have incorporated the works
listed above into our Frisian Offline Resources Guide
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/frisian_offline.htm).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Breuker, D. Gorter & J. Hoekstra (1996)
Orientation in Frisian studies. Ljouwert/Amsterdam, Fryske Akademy, v + 61 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=651

Dyk, S. (1997)
Noun Incorporation in Frisian (diss. RUG). Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (848),
ISBN 90-6171-848, Hfl. 40.00, viii + 231 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=645

Dykstra, A. (2000)
Frysk-Ingelsk wurdboek/Frisian-English dictionary. Ljouwert, xxxviii + 1153
pp.

Dykstra, A. en R.H. Bremmer Jr, red. (1999)
In Skiednis fan 'e Fryske taalkunde. Ljouwert, 372 pp.

Feitsma, A. (1993)
Oud en nieuw in de Frisistiek. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (766), ISBN
90-6171-766-3, Hfl. 2.50, 30 pp.

Gorter, D. (1996)
Het Fries als kleine Europese taal. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (No. 823), ISBN
90-6171-823-6, 28 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=620

Gorter, D., G.H. Jelsma, P.H. van der Plank en K. de Vos (1984)
Taal yn Fryslân. Fryske Akademy (638), ISBN 90 6171 638 1, Hfl. 47.50, 437 pp.

Gorter, Durk en Reitze J. Jonkman (1995)
Taal yn Fryslân op 'e nij besjoen. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (807), ISBN
90-6171-807-4, Hfl. 20.00, 90 pp.

Hoekstra. J. (1997)
The syntax of infinitives in Frisian (diss. RUG). Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy
(841), ISBN 90-6171-841-4, Hfl. 30.00, v + 169 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=659

Jonkman, Reitze J. (1963)
It Leewarders: In taalsosjologysk ûndersyk nei it Stêdsk yn ferhâlding ta it
Nederlânsk en it Frysk yn Ljouwert. Fryske Akademy (No. 771), ISBN
90-6171-771-X, Hfl. 30,00, 309 pp.

Kodama, H. (1992)
Furijiago bunpô (Fryske Grammatika). Tokyo: Daigakushorin, Hfl. 130, 291 pp.

Smith, James F. (1980)
Language & language attitudes in a bilingual community: Terherne (Friesland).
Frysk Ynstitút Grins/Fryske Akademy (585)/Stabo/All-round B.V., Hfl. 26.75,
299 pp.

Tiersma, P.M. (1999)
Frisian Reference Grammar. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (No. 886), ISBN
90-6171-886, Hfl. 30.00, 147.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=623

Visser, W. (1997)
The Syllable in Frisian (= HIL Dissertations; 30) (diss. VU). The Hague &
Ljouwert, H.A.G. & Fryske Akademy, xiv + 405 pp.

Ytsma, J. (1995)
Frisian as first and second language. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (No. 797), ISBN
90-6171-797-3, Hfl. 30,00, 208 pp.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 17:26:36 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:26:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 11.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.FEB.2001.092636.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 11.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Yogi Reppmann [yreppman at rconnect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Last night I had the pleasure to step in for Dr. Richard Trost, Des Moines,

IA, who was supposed to speak in the Germanic-American Institute about his
translation of the book "Juernjakob Swehn der Amerikafahrer" by Johannes
Gillhoff.  Since 1916, one million copies had been sold in Germany because
of the charming Low German quotes (Missingsch).

I used the chance to mention that we organize the fourth U.S. Low German
conference in Grand Island, NE on October 19-21, 2001.  The
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society has organized the first two
conferences in 1995 and 1997 and the Pommerscher Verein, which was
mentioned
under "Events," February 6, 2001, in 1999.

Yours, Yogi Reppmann

3 Lincoln Lane
Northfield, MN, 55057
Tel: (507) 645-9161
Fax: (507) 663-7929
Yogi at moin-moin.com
http://www.moin-moin.com

***

Press Release:

4th Low German Heritage Days
(Platt Conference)
and Genealogical Workshop
Grand Island, Nebraska Oct. 19-21, 2001

The Platt Deutsche Corporation and the Liederkranz Society of Grand Island,

Nebraska will be hosting the US’s 4th Low German Heritage Days (Platt
Conference) and Genealogical Workshop. The meeting will be in English and
Platt. One main focus will be about the Low German spoken in the Midwest
and the renaissance of interest in the language and culture of those who
still speak it. A surprisingly large number of children who grew up in the
country learned to speak Low German at home before entering kindergarten
where they were for the first time exposed to the English language. As a
result, many of them now enjoy speaking Low German as their mother tongue,
but only learned to read and write in English.

These Heritage Days are of special interest for both, American and German
genealogists, all Platt speakers, and those who would like to learn more
about this charming language of their forefathers. During this weekend,
German genealogists will support US family researchers in their efforts to
read old German script and to find new resources.

A program full of variety covering workshops, slide shows, lessons,
traditional German cooking, folk dance, theatre, music performances, and
singing along will surely make for an enjoyable and educational experience.

These gatherings have already made great accomplishments in linking the Old

with the New World. The 4th Low German Heritage Days and Genealogical
Workshop had its beginning with the American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage
Society of Davenport, Iowa in 1995.

Several emigrants from Schleswig-Holstein, among them William Stolley and
Fred Hedde, 1848 democratic revolutionaries, founded Grand Island, Nebraska

in 1857. City Mayor of Grand Island, Ken Gnadt, expects altogether over 400

participants from around the country and Germany:

“Besides informative slide show presentations, genealogical workshops with
visiting German specialists in Old German script and church books,
a German Heritage Festival, Low German/English choir music, theatre
performances, and Grammy’s favorite recipes - the gathering will also have
an Oktoberfest atmosphere.”

For further information, contact:

Institute for Low German in America, Dr. Joachim Reppmann, Professor of
German
Address: 3 Lincoln Lane, Northfield, MN 55057
Phone: (507) 645-9161 ? fax: (507) 663-7929, yogi at moin-moin.com ?
http://www.moin-moin.com or

Mayor Ken Gnadt, City Hall,
Address: 100 East First Street, Box 1968, Grand Island, NE 68802-1968
Phone: (308) 385-5444 (ext. 100), Fax: (308) 385-5486, mayor at gionline.net

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 23:44:24 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:44:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 11.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.FEB.2001.154424.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 11.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Yogi Reppmann [yreppman at rconnect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Last night I had the pleasure to step in for Dr. Richard Trost, Des Moines,

IA, who was supposed to speak in the Germanic-American Institute about his
translation of the book "Juernjakob Swehn der Amerikafahrer" by Johannes
Gillhoff.  Since 1916, one million copies had been sold in Germany because
of the charming Low German quotes (Missingsch).

I used the chance to mention that we organize the fourth U.S. Low German
conference in Grand Island, NE on October 19-21, 2001.  The
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society has organized the first two
conferences in 1995 and 1997 and the Pommerscher Verein, which was
mentioned
under "Events," February 6, 2001, in 1999.

Yours, Yogi Reppmann

3 Lincoln Lane
Northfield, MN, 55057
Tel: (507) 645-9161
Fax: (507) 663-7929
Yogi at moin-moin.com
http://www.moin-moin.com

***

Press Release:

4th Low German Heritage Days
(Platt Conference)
and Genealogical Workshop
Grand Island, Nebraska Oct. 19-21, 2001

The Platt Deutsche Corporation and the Liederkranz Society of Grand Island,
Nebraska will be hosting the US’s 4th Low German Heritage Days (Platt
Conference) and Genealogical Workshop. The meeting will be in English and
Platt. One main focus will be about the Low German spoken in the Midwest
and the renaissance of interest in the language and culture of those who
still speak it. A surprisingly large number of children who grew up in the
country learned to speak Low German at home before entering kindergarten
where they were for the first time exposed to the English language. As a
result, many of them now enjoy speaking Low German as their mother tongue,
but only learned to read and write in English.

These Heritage Days are of special interest for both, American and German
genealogists, all Platt speakers, and those who would like to learn more
about this charming language of their forefathers. During this weekend,
German genealogists will support US family researchers in their efforts to
read old German script and to find new resources.

A program full of variety covering workshops, slide shows, lessons,
traditional German cooking, folk dance, theatre, music performances, and
singing along will surely make for an enjoyable and educational experience.
These gatherings have already made great accomplishments in linking the Old
with the New World. The 4th Low German Heritage Days and Genealogical
Workshop had its beginning with the American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage
Society of Davenport, Iowa in 1995.

Several emigrants from Schleswig-Holstein, among them William Stolley and
Fred Hedde, 1848 democratic revolutionaries, founded Grand Island, Nebraska
in 1857. City Mayor of Grand Island, Ken Gnadt, expects altogether over 400
participants from around the country and Germany:

“Besides informative slide show presentations, genealogical workshops with
visiting German specialists in Old German script and church books,
a German Heritage Festival, Low German/English choir music, theatre
performances, and Grammy’s favorite recipes - the gathering will also have
an Oktoberfest atmosphere.”

For further information, contact:

Institute for Low German in America, Dr. Joachim Reppmann, Professor of
German
Address: 3 Lincoln Lane ? Northfield, MN 55057
Phone: (507) 645-9161 ? fax: (507) 663-7929 ? yogi at moin-moin.com ?
http://www.moin-moin.com or

Mayor Ken Gnadt, City Hall,
Address: 100 East First Street, Box 1968 ? Grand Island, NE 68802-1968
Phone: (308) 385-5444 (ext. 100) ? fax: (308) 385-5486 ? mayor at gionline.net

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 15:28:00 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:28:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.072800.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Kahn, Gabriele [GKahn at easy.de]
Subject: Article on abcnews: Languages in danger of extinction

This is an Internet news article of Feb 9
(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/language010209.html).

Word to the Wise
Languages Are in Danger of Extinction
In 1974, Ned Madrell died on the Isle of Man, and with him died the Manx
language, lost to the world - forever. A similar end awaited the Ubykh
language. When farmer Tefvik Esemic died in rural Turkey in 1992, so did
Ubykh.
As the world's youth increasingly shun native languages in their bid to fit
in to mainstream society and the languages that dominate, the future of many
languages rests with older members of tribes and communities. In the next
100 years, experts estimate 90 percent of the world's languages will be
extinct or virtually extinct.
A UNEP (United Nations Environment Program) report released Thursday warns
thousands of languages may disappear and with it, vast reserves of the
world's culture and traditions. The world currently houses between 5,000 and
7,000 spoken languages, with more than 2,500 estimated to be in very real
danger of extinction. Of these, says Graham Dutfield of the Oxford Center
for the Environment, Ethics and Society and one of the authors of the
report, more than 553 are in imminent peril as they are spoken by only up to
100 people. "When you reach a situation where there are 1,000 speakers or
less who speak a mother tongue, the language is in danger," says Dutfield.
Forced Off the Globe
But most people who are born into one or two of the world's "mega-languages"
such as English, Spanish, French or Arabic understand just how imperative
the pull of these languages can be. As globalization ratchets up the volume
of trade and the mass media spreads a culture packaged in televisions, CDs
and walkmans, the death bells of indigenous languages have been pealing
louder than ever before. "Language has always changed throughout history,"
said Dutfield. "But the commercial pressure to assimilate has never been
stronger than in the past 10 years."
A number of the world's languages have disappeared thanks to conquerors,
colonizers, dictators and individuals with a zest to change things. In some
of the more notable cases, Welsh schoolchildren at the start of the 20th
century were beaten for not speaking English, and many young Australian
Aborigines were taken away from their parents and adopted by whites to
"help" them assimilate. Last year, both the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs
and the Canadian government formally apologized for preventing native
inhabitants from speaking their languages. But a cultural resurgence in many
parts of Europe, North America, Australia and New Zealand has seen concerted
movements to preserve languages. On the Isle of Man, for instance, there has
been a movement to teach young children Manx.
Losing More Than Language
The problem, said Dutfield, becomes pressing among indigenous peoples who
are increasingly coming in contact with the outside world and are in danger
of being swallowed by it. Nearly 4,000 to 5,000 of the world's languages are
classed as indigenous. The real danger, according to experts, is that when a
language dies, not only does the world's linguistic diversity receive a
blow, but entire systems of knowledge are lost. "Languages are repositories
of vast systems of knowledge," says Dutfield. "When a language dies, we do
not know how much we are losing with it."
However, the Internet has enabled a number of languages in the throes of
death to live to cyberspace. With audio files and embedded texts, a number
of languages are being given a chance to survive, even if it's only in a
virtual world.

Greetings,
Gabriele

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 16:42:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:42:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (02)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.084206.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

Beginning last Thursday, our good hosts as LINGUISTS had some machine
trouble.  The list server was down for a while and has been fully functional
only since late yesterday.  Apparently no submissions have been lost.
However, if you did send something to LL-L and have not seen it appear so far,
please send it again.

I would like to welcome a few new subscribers.  They are from the following
countries, some of them countries that were previously rarely or never
represented: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Cuba,
Denmark, England, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy,
Kazakhstan, Luxemburg, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Northern Ireland,
Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Russia, Scotland, South Africa, Spain, Sweden,
Switzerland, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United States of America, and
Wales.  (Sorry if I forgot any.)  Also, it is a special pleasure to welcome
someone from Omrop Fryslân, the TV and radio broadcasting company of Fryslân
(Friesland) in Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, the Netherlands
(http://www.omropfryslan.nl/).  A couple of members of the Fryske Akademy,
also of Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, have been subscribers for quite some time.  Last
but certainly not least, I am happy to welcome back a number of subscribers
that had left us for a while.  Some of them had been subscribers since the
very early days of LL-L (1995) and decided to return "home."  (I do not
mention anyone by name to allow them the option of anonymous lurking.)

This is a good time for me to send you a reminder of the posting guidelines.
This is necessary because of many "slips" lately and because beginning posters
keep making basic mistakes.  This is mandatory reading for all but the most
experienced contributors.

I encourage lurkers to come forward and contribute.  You need not feel
self-conscious or intimidated as long as you stick to the basic guidelines.

PLEASE DO READ THESE GUIDELINES:

(1) KEEP DISCUSSIONS RELEVANT.  Please remember that we deal with the
"Lowlands" area.  This is not synonymous with "Germanic" but excludes German,
Luxemburgish and the North Germanic languages (Scandinavian, Icelandic and
Faroese).  It is perfectly fine to mention these related languages, and any
other languages and their cultures for that matter, especially wherever there
are parallels or connections that are useful in understanding topics that are
within our main subject area.  However, the focus must remain on the Lowlands
languages and cultures.  It is all right to sidestep within a discussion, as
long as the discussion returns to the original focus.  However, this should
not be seen as an excuse to start a new, extraneous subject line.

(2) KEEP SUBJECTS SEPARATE.  Do not submit a single posting in which more than
one topic is discussed.  ("Topic" equals "subject line".)  This also applies
when you respond to other people's postings.

(3) STICK TO THE SUBJECT TITLE.  If you start an entirely new discussion, you
are welcome to create your own subject title.  I may or may not adopt that
title.  (The more general the title is the better is the chance that I'll
adopt it; otherwise I'll generalize it.)  If you respond or add to previous
postings in an already existing subject line, please use the already existing
title of that discussion threat as your subject heading. For instance, if the
current title is "Language varieties" and you respond to what someone wrote
about vowels in Flemish dialects, don't choose something like "Long o and u in
the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of young Belgians" as your
subject heading; stick to "Language varieties," if you like it or not. This
facilitates sorting submissions at my end.  If I feel that the discussion has
changed or a new discussion has branched off an existing one, it is *my* job
to give it a new title.

(4) EDIT QUOTES.  When you reply to what someone else has written, don't just
hit the reply button and write your reply before or after the quoted text.
EDIT OUT WHATEVER IS NOT ESSENTIAL, most definitely the LL-L masthead and
footer.  (They are going to stay, for good reasons.)  Also, don't do what some
do: they follow this rule nicely until they run out of things to say, and then
they let the rest of the quoted text dangle behind their "signature."

(5) GIVE CREDIT.  Don't forget to say who the writer of the text is to which
you are responding.  (When you hit the reply button your system most likely
credits me or "Lowlands-L," the sender, even if I did not write it.)

(6) IDENTIFY YOURSELF.  Anonymous postings are not permitted and will be
ignored.  Readers must be able to see who wrote a posting.  Many people have
automatic "signatures;" they are great, as long as they are not attached. (No
attachments allowed!)  Otherwise, your name must appear either with your email
address or at the end of your contribution.  It is all right to have your
surname appear in one place and your given name in another place within the
same posting.

(7) DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS.  Attachments (i.e., attached documents or
pictures), including signature attachments, are unacceptable.  The list server
strips most attachments off submissions and would probably remove the rest
during final distribution if I did not remove them already.  Anyway, sending
attachments without prior approval from recipients is a big no-no in
"netiquette."  So, please put everything you wish to convey inside your email
submissions.

By all means, please feel free to submit postings to LL-L, even if you have
never done so before.  If you make a gross mistake, I'll tell you so privately
and will have you resubmit it correctly before anyone else sees it -- which
isn't the end of the world. If the mistake is not so bad, I'll correct it once
or twice in the hope that you will get the hint eventually.

If you have never posted but are considering getting into it, it's a good idea
to watch the "masters," the "old hands" or "veterans" on LL-L, namely those
subscribers who contribute frequently and have been around for a long time (a
handful of them since the very beginning in 1995!)
Good luck, and keep us posted!

Reinhard "Ron"
Hahn Lowlands-L

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 16:47:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:47:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (03)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.084732.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)

Folk,

In response to Gabrielle Kahn's submission, I would
suggest that one of the keys to this is to promote
active bilingualism from an early age.

The point is that study after study has consistently
shown that no harm whatsoever is done to children if
they are brought up bilingually (trilingually, on the
other hand, *is* a problem). Therefore the answer is a
relatively simple one - bring the child up in its
native tongue, and in the official national or
regional language. That way the child has a good
knowledge of its own identity and culture through its
own language, while being at absolutely no
disadvantage (perceived or otherwise) to fellow
nationals - in fact in some cases it will be at an
advantage since it will probably find learning further
languages later in educational life easier.

I would say (though Cristoir may know more about this
than I) that the most effective and successful Irish
medium school in Northern Ireland is the Bunscoil at
Armagh City. Without any government grants it gained
consistently higher attendances than equivalent
schools with bigger catchment areas which were
receiving grants. It did this through successful
marketing, and that marketing was based on the central
aim of bringing children up bilingually (that's to say
Irish at school and English at home). It was only a
secondary issue, albeit an important one, that the
second language happened to be their own, the tongue
with the longest literary history in Western Europe.
Parents are still unlikely to be won over by that
argument, no matter how compelling, for fear that the
child might lose something by being brought up
bilingually. Once you promote the point, you're on to
a winner. (Needless to say the school is now well
funded with 29 pupils the last I heard)

This is a message those of us who represent 'minority'
or (a better term) 'lesser-used' languages should
strive to promote.

------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 21:52:46 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:52:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L,
 13.FEB.2001 (04)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.135246.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (03)

[parsleyij at yahoo.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)
>
> In response to Gabrielle Kahn's submission, I would
> suggest that one of the keys to this is to promote
> active bilingualism from an early age.
>
> The point is that study after study has consistently
> shown that no harm whatsoever is done to children if
> they are brought up bilingually (trilingually, on the
> other hand, *is* a problem). Therefore the answer is a
> relatively simple one - bring the child up in its
> native tongue, and in the official national or
> regional language. That way the child has a good
> knowledge of its own identity and culture through its
> own language, while being at absolutely no
> disadvantage (perceived or otherwise) to fellow
> nationals - in fact in some cases it will be at an
> advantage since it will probably find learning further
> languages later in educational life easier.

I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
nationalism.

In the "Flemish movement" in Belgium one has rejected a bilingual
French-Dutch co-existence in the North of this country since this
automatically leads to social interactions to be predominantly held in
the strong language. As a result of about 150 years of  political
"progress" the North is unilingual Dutch (+ it's dialect varieties,
including Limburgish)

The negative side of the story:
The quality of the French spoken by people from the North deteriorated
significantly. Companies often switch to English for events with
participation from North and South.

The positive side of the story.
Dutch did more than survive and got a quite strong position:
- Drain of Flemish people to French schools recently switched to a drain
of people from Romance (French) circles to Dutch-language schools
(especially in the Brussels area).
- When I participated, e.g. at meetings of the Belgian Standardization
Organization in the seventies, the presence of one single French
speaking participant from the South (in a group of about 20) was
sufficient for the meeting to be held in "French only". For the moment
virtually "Dutch only" is spoken and French language speakers quite
often switch to some semi-Dutch creolic variant.

The result in N. Belgium compared with the North of France (Westhoek):
1815: both:     - street: dialect variants of the Dutch family
                       - cultural top: French
So the starting position was very similar; the result is quite different
though:
2001: N. France:    - street French only (some people above 75
eventually speak a Flemish dialect in family circle)
2001: N. Belgium:   - street: Dutch, Belgian Dutch and it's dialects
                        - cultural top: Dutch   (economic top: switching
to English)

I personally think the option "Dutch-only" and "no bilinguism" saved the
persistence of Dutch and it's variants in N. Belgium.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (03)

At 08:47 13/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:
>Folk,
>
>In response to Gabrielle Kahn's submission, I would
>suggest that one of the keys to this is to promote
>active bilingualism from an early age.
>I would say (though Cristoir may know more about this
>than I) that the most effective and successful Irish
>medium school in Northern Ireland is the Bunscoil at
>Armagh City. Without any government grants it gained
>consistently higher attendances than equivalent
>schools with bigger catchment areas which were
>receiving grants. It did this through successful
>marketing, and that marketing was based on the central
>aim of bringing children up bilingually.

I'm certainly in favour of children having a bi-lingual upbringing.
What I often wonder, though, is whether the type of upbringing
described in Ian James Parsley's posting does actually produce adults
who are genuinely bilingual, with an equal command of two languages.
On the face of it, it seems to me that it would more probably produce
adults who are diglossic, who are stronger in one language in certain
areas of expression, and in the other language in other areas.

I'd expect to see this in the kind of situation that I suspect
exists in Armagh, in which the language of the school is not spoken
(as a native tongue, anyway) in the majority of pupils' homes. I've
no doubt that the school teaches the children to use Irish as a medium
of learning, of literate expression, and of business, because those
things are what schools exist to teach.

On the other hand, there are other things that I'm not so certain
about. Does the school teach children how to express strong emotion,
including negative emotion such as malice, bitterness and prejudice?
Does it teach then how to express intimacy? Does it teach them how to
be profane, and to speak bluntly on matters of sex or the toilet?

Some might say that it isn't the role of schools to teach those things,
but to say that would be to miss the point. Unless the children grow
up to be adults who *are* capable of expressing those things in both
languages, even if they can use the school language beautifully
for certain other purposes, then they are not truly bilingual.

If enough children come from Irish-speaking homes for Irish to be
the language of the playground as well as the classroom, then things
aren't so bad, as the playground will teach many things that the
classroom doesn't. The children from Irish-speaking homes
will pass the "taboo" register on to the others. On the other hand,
if the language of the playground is English, or even "classroom"
Irish, then the children's command of language will not develop fully.

For these reasons, although I'd be very pleased to be shown to be
wrong, I have large doubts about the effectiveness of this kind of
solution in preserving endangered languages, unless it is supported
by other measures in the broader community. On its own, it will
certainly produce people who can express *some* things in the
endangered language: my question is, is that really enough? If
people cannot express themselves fully in a particular language,
naturally they will turn to another in which they can.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Gabriele, Ian, Roger and Colin,

Thanks for sharing your information and thoughts on this topic.  I have a few
thoughts of my own in reaction, presented in a benevolently challenging mode.

Roger, you wrote:

> I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
> nationalism.

I am not sure, but on the basis of what you wrote thereafter I assume you mean
something like "ethnic/linguistic assertion" rather than "nationalism."

In the context of language competition, especially minority language problems,
"nationalism" is likely to be interpreted as a type of precursor or ingredient
of secessionism, one of the greatest fears of political states, a fear -- be
it justified or not -- that tends to lead to suppression of minority languages
and cultures.  Suspicion of nationalist/secessionist motives is often used as
a pretext for suppression, even prohibition, of minority languages.  In other
words, in such a context nationalism would lead to war in most cases.

Yes, ethnic/linguistic assertion, too, is sometimes seen as dangerous,
especially by those who advocate the shedding of ethnic/linguistic identity
for the sake of a solely national identity, and by those who happen to
consider a certain minority ethnicity/language inferior or otherwise
contemptible.  When I tell people about my interests in minority languages and
their (re)assertion, I often get responses like "But why *ask* for
trouble/Balkanization?!"  However, most people seem reassured if you explain
that assertion of a certain minority language is not accompanied by
(significant) secessionist sentiments.  You would most certainly not get
central governments to support minority language rights if they as much as
suspected "nationalism."

Colin, you wrote:

> On the face of it, it seems to me that it would more probably produce
> adults who are diglossic, who are stronger in one language in certain
> areas of expression, and in the other language in other areas.

You certainly made a compelling case, at least in my humble opinion.

However, without wanting to distract from your point, let me ask you to
categorize cases that do not seem to fall into either category.  I guess Low
Saxon/Low German vs German and Dutch is a case in point, and I believe Scots
vs English to be a similar or even identical case.  Especially in former
times, children would first learn Low Saxon and would start to seriously
acquire the power language German (D) or Dutch (NL) with the beginning of
their schooling, since their native language is/was banned from schooling.
So, after a while they would become diglossic, as you explained: Low Saxon at
home/in the native community and German/Dutch at school/outside the native
community.  However, at school they would in many cases interact with children
whose first language was German/Dutch, and they would become quite fluent in
the power language, even acquiring a convincing inventory of emotionally based
expressions.  Many of them would marry "outside the language" and would speak
the power language with their spouses and perhaps even with their children.
An outsider may never realize that the power language started off as a second
language.  How would you categorize such a case?  Would it still be first
language vs second language?  Surely it would not a case of diglossia.  Or
would it?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 23:19:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:19:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (05)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.151906.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death")  LOWLANDS-L,
13.FEB.2001 (04)

At 13:52 13/02/01 -0800, R. F. Hahn wrote:

>You certainly made a compelling case, at least in my humble opinion.

My thanks to Ron for his kind comments.

>However, without wanting to distract from your point, let me ask you to
>categorize cases that do not seem to fall into either category.  I guess Low
>Saxon/Low German vs German and Dutch is a case in point, and I believe Scots
>vs English to be a similar or even identical case...
>... How would you categorize such a case?  Would it still be first
>language vs second language?  Surely it would not a case of diglossia.  Or
>would it?

I'd make a distinction between the situation described in Ron's
posting, and that which Ian James Parsley described earlier. In Ron's
situation, the language that the children bring to school is the
lesser-used language, with the language of the school itself being
the power language. In Ian James Parsley's the roles are reversed,
and this is a key distinction which limits the value of direct
comparison between the two.

On the other hand, I'd be reluctant to say that there's no
comparison at all. I've no direct experience of Low Saxon, but I do
believe that the tendency to produce diglossic rather than bilingual
adults is one reason why English-medium education has not produced
the desired result of eradicating Scots entirely. Some people have
always had to turn to Scots, to say things that their school did
not teach them how to say in English.

Television, on the other hand, has been much more damaging because
it teaches people how to say a great many things in English that no
school-teacher would ever have taught them.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Thanks for the explanation (above), Colin.

I am under the impression that in the relative strongholds of Low Saxon/Low
German in Northern Germany (e.g., Eastern Friesland), where some people still
start off with the regional language, adults end up with German as a
"complete" language and Low Saxon as the first but "incomplete" language. The
latter is "incomplete" because it has not been used outside the sphere of home
and small community, and anything that belongs to "public" spheres
(bureaucracy, formal education, non-traditional technology, etc.) is
associated with the use of "High" German.  You will hear people talk in Low
Saxon and then switch to German or at least start using many German loans
(including calques) as they start talking about "non-traditional" matters.  I
suppose this explains the weak position of the language.

One more thing regarding Roger's point:

> I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
> nationalism.

Even if we use "ethnic assertion" in place of "nationalism," this may not be
applicable in cases where the speakers are not seen and do not see themselves
as ethnically separate from the dominant ethnicity.  This is the case, by and
large, with Low Saxon/Low German, certainly in Germany, and I believe it
applies in the Netherlands also.  I suppose that is why Low Saxon/Low German
is classified as a "regional language" rather than as a "minority language."
I have a feeling this applies to speakers of Scots also (even though they may
really be a majority as far as numbers are concerned).  Does this put these
languages into a more precarious position?  Perhaps it does, because there is
not clear dividing line other than use of language.  However, there is still
"regionalism," of which most speakers still have plenty, which, on the other
hand, does not require the use of Low Saxon, though it enhances it.

Can "language assertion" succeed without "ethnic assertion" and/or
"nationalism"?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:13:07 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:13:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (06)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.171307.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Thomas [t.mcrae at uq.net.au]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)

Gabriele Kahn wrote as part of a much longer article...
> From: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)
>
> Welsh schoolchildren at the start of the 20th
> century were beaten for not speaking English

In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in
the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we did
not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve its
goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to
Scots I hope this is still the case.
The rest of Gabriele's mailing is quite worrying.

Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
"Oh wid some power the Giftie gie us
Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"
Robert Burns--

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 16:47:10 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:47:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)
Message-ID: <WED.14.FEB.2001.084710.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Kahn, Gabriele [GKahn at easy.de]
Subject: Language death

I wholeheartedly agree with Ian on most points, although I don't see why
being trilingual would be any problem for children. My own children grew up
that way, as they had a German mother and a Dutch father and lived in the
USA for eight years. There are plenty of Kurdish immigrant children in
Germany, for example, who speak both Kurdish and Turkish and then learn
German, too. These are both examples, however, for children who are
bilungual already and learn their third language at the age of five or so,
so maybe that's different.
As a child, I heard a special version of Platt spoken in my village (in the
Solling area of Southern Lower Saxony) among some of the older people, but I
doubt whether anyone still speaks it now. Somehow, at some point
(coincidentally, when television become popular?), people seem to have
thought they weren't doing their children a favour by talking to them in
what was considered a crude peasant language instead of "proper" German.
Also, I have a suspicion that they didn't mind being able to talk so the
children wouldn't understand...
Perhaps we should start a world-wide movement promoting ethnic languages as
"cool". Movies, rap songs, video games featuring Sollinger Platt - hey,
maybe there's even money in it!

Man jümmer tau,
Gabriele

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L

Roger Thijs wrote:

> The result in N. Belgium compared with the North of France (Westhoek):
> 1815: both:     - street: dialect variants of the Dutch family
>                        - cultural top: French
> So the starting position was very similar; the result is quite different
> though:
> 2001: N. France:    - street French only (some people above 75
> eventually speak a Flemish dialect in family circle)
> 2001: N. Belgium:   - street: Dutch, Belgian Dutch and it's dialects
>                         - cultural top: Dutch   (economic top: switching
> to English)

A few comments on those statements. First, there was a significant Dutch
speaking 'cultural top' in Flanders, both in Belgium and in France,
throughout the 19th and 20th century.
Second, in French Flanders it's not just some people above 75 who speak
'Vlaemsch'; the Euromosaic Report (http://campus.uoc.es/euromosaic/) states
that 'Flemish is spoken in the north-west of France by an estimated
population of 20,000 daily speakers and 40,000 occasional speakers'. On a
total number of about 150,000 people living in the Flemish language area,
that's quite a lot actually.
Third: fortunately I never heard of an 'economic top' in Flanders using
English outside business situations...

Tom McRae wrote:

> In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
> speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in
> the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we
did
> not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve
its
> goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to
> Scots I hope this is still the case.

Before WWII in some schools in Zeeland, kids had to pay five cents every
time a teacher 'caught' them on speaking Zeeuws. Unfortunately a far more
succesful method of banning the language from the playgrounf then just beat
them, because it affected the parents as well. Five cents was the price of a
bread back then! Reason enough to switch to (corrupt) Dutch at home. And on
top of that: the teacher has studied up north, in Holland, so he must know
what's right for the children.
Strange enough, the latter is still very much the case in Zeeland. Teachers
mostly come from outside Zeeland and take no interest what so ever in the
regional language...

Marco Evenhuis

-----

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L,
13.FEB.2001 (04)

Roger and Colin,

It is undoubtedly true that minority languages gain
considerably from being associated with 'nationalism',
but this is only the case if the people associated
with nationalism realize it! I could write a book on
this, but I do know that many Scottish Nationalists
would have no interest in Scots, and of those who do
many would deny that their interest in Scots and in
Scottish independence are linked in any way. Scottish
Nationalism seems, at least so far, to be based on
economic rather than cultural arguments.

My point is that some language movements are
inextricably linked with 'nationalism' of some sort,
but others are not. Scots activists would probably
think they would lose support if their cause was
linked to Scottish Nationalism. There is no doubt
that, in the long term, the cause of spoken Irish as a
regular means of communication was damaged severely by
its association with Irish Nationalism, an association
which many Irish Nationalists and Irish Language
activists were never truly comfortable with. Certainly
I am turned off Ulster-Scots by any association with
Ulster Unionism (in other words 'British Nationalism'
in Northern Ireland, or even 'Ulster Nationalism') -
in other words I, like many others, separate my
political views completely from the culture I enjoy. I
have already resisted several attempts to assign me,
'Ulster-Scots activists' or 'Ulster-Scots speakers' to
any particular political or social group and will
continue to do so.

In other words, if your lesser-used language is not
associated with a political movement, you have to take
different approaches to promoting it. It seems that
the majority in northern Belgium had no difficulty
with the concept that Dutch should *replace* French -
likewise with Catalan vis-a-vis Spanish in Catalonia
and the Balearics (but not in Valencia). However,
although I am a great fan of the Scots tongue and am
keen to see it used regularly, I do not propose that
it should *replace* English, or even that it should be
used in all contexts. Business meetings of the future
will take place in English, computers will use English
- even if you don't think that should be the case, the
fact is it *will* be. Parents and governments will,
quite rightly, look down on any attempts to revive or
preserve minority languages which threaten their
children's knowledge of English.

I am not actually suggesting that children should be
schooled in one language and use another at home -
it's just that in the example I used it was the only
realistic option. Nobody in Armagh speaks Irish now,
so you have to teach children Irish from an early age
(even if that means they will be 'diglossic' rather
than 'bilingual') so that, in a generation's time,
there *will* be Irish-speaking parents and eventually
true bilingualism can become an option once again. You
can't get round the fact that some of the essence of
the language will be gone, because it already has gone
(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum of
colours - colour names are now expressed on a
one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather than
on their own scale).

In the case of Scots, that needn't necessarily be the
case - indeed it is more likely, as Ron says, that
children will enter English-speaking school as Scots
speakers. That is my point - teachers, advisers,
parents, authorities and everyone else who counts
should be fully aware that such bilingualism presents
no danger to the child - in other words, awa wi the
tawse!

On the other hand, the reality is, whether we like it
or not, that everyone in future will be diglossic to a
certain extent, particularly in English-speaking
countries. For reasons outlined above, English (albeit
a slightly dodgy, non-literary version) will be the
only medium of communication in certain contexts.

The case of Dutch in Belgium is probably rather
different from the case of Scots or Gaelic in the UK
anyway. I wonder, in fact, how well Dutch would have
developed in Belgium if:

a) Belgium did not have a Dutch-speaking neighbour
b) French, instead of English, had retained its
position as 'World Language'

You would know the answer to this much better than I!
Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Thanks for your interest in this topic.  This has been a thought-provoking
exchange.

I believe that those who care about lesser-used languages and would like them
to survive need to face facts and somehow deal with existing obstacles.

For example, irrespective of our own enthusiasm and lofty ideas, and
irrespective of official recognition, there is still a majority of people,
including those who grew up with minority and regional languages, who consider
the use of minority and regional languages frivolous or "not serious" (i.e.,
only good for jokes and folksy entertainment), and that there are those who
consider it an obstacle or threat to "progress" and "success."  The task at
hand then seems to be to convince these people of the importance of continuing
the use of these languages and to do so without threatening their basic value
systems.  How would you go about doing that?

Also, no matter what you and I may think and wish, the majority of people
still associate the use of "power" languages versus "powerless" languages with
social class, simply with power or the lack of it.  In most people's views,
there are clear incentives associated with the use of power languages:
limitless formal education, higher social standing, economic success.  It is
in many cases also associated with urban and certainly metropolitan living,
something to which a large percentage of young people in rural and small-town
settings will always aspire.  What kinds of incentives are there to present in
the promotion of those language varieties that are associated with lower
socio-economic class, politically disadvantaged ethnic minorities and
economically disadvantaged rural areas?

Certainly in the past, members of linguistic minorities *needed* to be
bilingual because of pressures from two sides: (1) needing to use the elite
language variety in certain settings to gain access and respectibility (e.g.,
while working in the big city), and (2) needing to use the minority/regional
language variety to retain social acceptability in their native communities
(e.g., on visits back home in the country).  Coming home and "talking city"
used to be as unacceptable as "talking country" in the big city.  (There is a
well-known Low Saxon exclamation that has been made into a song: _Mien Gott!
He kann keen Plattdüütsch mehr!_ ["Good God! He's forgotten his Low
German!"])  Although in some instances this pressure to be bilingual continues
(e.g., for African Americans needing to sound "White" in educational and
professional settings but being required to sound "Black" in most African
American settings), I am under the impression that in other instances pressure
from minority/regional language communities is weakening.  For instance, the
generations of our parents and grandparents no longer insisted on us using Low
Saxon/Low German even if we spoke it as a first language.  It was accepted as
a given that children and grandchildren answer in German to questions given in
Low Saxon, and some parents and grandparents themselves switched to German
"for the sake of the kids" and used Low Saxon only amongst themselves.  (It is
the scenario Gabriele describes above.)  I hear that this has been happening
in Germany's Frisian and Sorbian communities as well.  In other words, in many
or most cases, insistence to stick with the native language at home had been
eroded or is in a state or gradual erosion.  Can such insistence be
reestablished once it is weakened or gone?  If so, how?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 20:13:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:13:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (02)
Message-ID: <WED.14.FEB.2001.121318.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

> From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L
>
> Second, in French Flanders it's not just some people above 75 who
speak
> 'Vlaemsch'; the Euromosaic Report (http://campus.uoc.es/euromosaic/)
states
> that 'Flemish is spoken in the north-west of France by an estimated
> population of 20,000 daily speakers and 40,000 occasional speakers'.
On a
> total number of about 150,000 people living in the Flemish language
area,
> that's quite a lot actually.

I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find any of
these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several hours in the
center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even when participating over
there at activities of circles promoting local culture in the area
(recently in Kaaster, and in Kassel, and in Steenvoorde). My convinction
is that nationalist, or better regionalistic, Flemish people from the
area blow up these statistics for underlining their "identity", while
the very same people are not able to speak either Dutch or the "former"
local Flemish dialect. I'm sorry to say this.

> Third: fortunately I never heard of an 'economic top' in Flanders
using
> English outside business situations...

Basically it is true that it is focussed on business situations. New is
an emerging "English" social live in the Brussels area. I think it
initially developped from circles of  UK people working in the European
Institutions and in Brussels corporate offices.

I personally participate actively (about once a month) at "social"
activities of Amcham, the American Chamber of Commerce in Brussels.
Belgian participation is quite high (I estimate at about half of about
150 - 300 participants at the events); the language spoken is virtually
English only. For in case somebody is interested: The next  Amcham
"Business After Hours"  reception is on Thursday March 8 at 6 p.m. at
the Brussels Swissôtel. It is sponsored by "Swissôtel". Registration
before March 2. (Participation: BEF 700 members, BEF 1000 non-members)

Regards,

Roger

-----

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

A chairde,

Ian's assertion of the success of the Bunscoileanna
(Irish-speaking schools) is interesting. They form an
archipelago of Irish-medium educational institutions
throughout the north of Ireland and are a source of
great pride and satisfaction within the nationalist,
republican and Gaeilgeoirí (Irish-speaking)
communities as a whole.

Whilst the Bunscoileanna represent an important step
forward and a bold gesture toward the promotion of
Irish as a living language and a means of everyday
communication (as opposed to the Gaeltactisation of
Irish whereby it is hounded into [p]reservations to be
sustained), nonetheless the fact remains that the
profile of Irish in the Six Counties is almost
non-existent. Even if one attends a Bunscoil, one is
obliged to use the "killer language" (English) in any
wider context. This is because Ireland is "occupied"
by the English language and to speak Irish is to odd,
quaint, idealistic and somewhat useless. This is a
reaction to a no-hope scenario where the community
feels it has "no choice" but to use the dominant
language even when, in fact, it does in innumerable
small ways. The advent of Teilifíos na Gaeilge Ceathar
(TG4), an Irish-language television service, has been
an enormous boost to the Gaelic; further, the
availability of journals such as Comhar, An tUltach,
Foinse, and the daily Lá points out that perhaps the
greatest struggle a "dying language" (to use the
pessimists' inadequate terms) fights is one to say,
"we are still here, we still speak our language, we
will not die." Profile is what is needed - language as
landscape, as ubiqitous.

Part of the problem I feel is that there is
internalised oppression amongst minority language
communities that see linguistic erosion as inevitable
and so simply "concede defeat". This is evidenced in
the dread felt amongst minority language speakers of
appearing extreme in, say, tearing down monolingual
signs in the oppressing language or being "audacious"
enough to demand to use their native language with the
occupying state institutions (i.e., local government,
University, etc.): the result is a "victimhood" that
acquiesces to language death. If we look at the case
of Wales we see that a fully bilingual policy was
developed almost solely from "extreme" actions such as
the immolation of English signs in Welsh-speaking
areas, civil disobedience and so forth.

It is all fine and good to bemoan the "inevitability"
of a language's death: it is quite another, in one's
pessimism, to collaborate with the murder of that
language. Be daring. Be audacious. Take the chance.
Because if you don't, you might as well give in.

And then what would happen?

I am half-Cornish and I know only too well what the
aftermath of linguistic extirpation feels like.
Furthermore, I have seen the sociological consequences
of language loss: a feeling of peripheralisation
because of late dominant language acquisition;
feelings of inadequacy, inferiority, and incapability;
a lack of hope borne of a deep sense of loss and
deprivation; and above all, a completely defeated
mentality that conspires against hope and motivation.

Is that really a fitting way to live?

Go raibh maith agaibh agus ag labhairt do theangacha
tuiginn beidh an lá libh,

Críostóir.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 00:05:21 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:05:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)
Message-ID: <WED.14.FEB.2001.160521.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Roger Thijs wrote:

> I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several

> hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even
> [...] My convinction is that nationalist, or better
> regionalistic, Flemish people from the
> area blow up these statistics for underlining their
> "identity", while the very same people are not able to speak
> either Dutch or the  "former"
> local Flemish dialect. I'm sorry to say this.

Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.
Many of my linguist colleagues trying to investigate these
stigmatized varieties have run into social brick walls this way.
 They often have to get a speaker to introduce them gradually
into the right social context.  Some start off speaking the high
language, to show that no condescension is intended, then
casually talk to the family dog in dialect, as a way to gently
slide into dialect.

Does anyone on our list have first-hand experience with Flemish
in France?

Stefan

-----

From: Ian James Parsley [parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Gabriele,

> I wholeheartedly agree with Ian on most points, although I don't see
why
> being trilingual would be any problem for children. My own children
grew up
> that way, as they had a German mother and a Dutch father and lived
in the
> USA for eight years. There are plenty of Kurdish immigrant children
in
> Germany, for example, who speak both Kurdish and Turkish and then
learn
> German, too. These are both examples, however, for children who are
> bilungual already and learn their third language at the age of five
or so,
> so maybe that's different.

Yes, that is different. David Crystal's 'Cambridge Encyclopedia of
Language' (Cambridge University Press 1987) and others books provide
examples of how children (i.e. of pre-school age) have no difficulty
at all being brought up bilingual. They are fully aware that the
languages are distinct - usually if one parent speaks one and the
other speaks the other the child will select the correct one (or the
incorrect one, depending!). When shown pictures and ask to name the
object, the child will select the shorter one (my own test of a
Spanish/English speaking child).

However, should you introduce a third language, or should 'the wrong
parent speak the wrong language', this has been shown to lead to
confusion.

I should add that this is my own experience even as an adult. I am
conscious at any time that I only speak two languages fluently, and
that it takes time to 'replace' one with another. So when I lived in
Germany my two were English and German, when I lived in Spain I
'replaced' German with Spanish, so that when I met some Germans in
Madrid I had difficulty reverting to German immediately. Of particular
interest, I found, was that I selected the Spanish for certain key
words - 'Ja, ich spreche tambien Deutsch'. I also met a Spaniard
resident in Germany who had lived in America for six years and spoke
perfect English apart from saying 'si' for 'yes' at all times!

If we apply this to your children, you will most likely find that one
of the three languages has become notably weaker - and it probably
isn't/wasn't English (they were using that all day at school). You
will often find that Kurdish immigrants who also speak Turkish have
very poor German unless they 'give up' one of the other two. It's
still there passively, but it takes time and often a conscious effort
to 'revert' to it.

It's an interesting issue, because it may actually help answer the
'language vs. dialect' debate. At what stage does bidialectal become
bilingual? If a child has Standard English, Irish and Scots would that
be confusing? What about Standard English, Irish and Geordie? Standard
English, Irish and Cockney? Standard English, Irish and Scottish
Gaelic?

I don't know of much research that has been done on this.

> Perhaps we should start a world-wide movement promoting ethnic
languages as
> "cool". Movies, rap songs, video games featuring Sollinger Platt -
hey,
> maybe there's even money in it!

Well, there is 'Dat wichtigste is, dat ihr Fussball spielt'!! (surely
that should be 'futball'...)

Seriously, Welsh and Irish have moved this way. The Welsh Language
movement demanded a number of posts dependent on Welsh to get people
learning it for a reason. Possibly better still (although time will
tell), the All-Ireland body for promoting Irish, Foras na Gaeilge
(Merrion Square, Dublin 2, eolas at bnag.ie) has launched an advertising
offensive where Irish is used in modern contexts. You're right - fire
out these video games with the titles and credits in lesser-used
languages etc, it can't do any harm.

You do, however, have to be a bit careful where no agreed written
standard exists - too much writing can actually lead to alienation by
those who don't accept the writing system. In which case, like you
say, do raps, dub plays etc.

Best regards,
Ian.
------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 15:43:41 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:43:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.074341.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> > any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several
> > hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even

Stefan Israel responded:

> Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
> speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
> speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.

The Euromosaic Report I mentioned earlier states that: "According to Röhrig
(1987), some 20% of people living in maritime Flanders are of Flemish
mother-tongue. However, only 5% of them use Flemish on a daily basis".
That's probably the reason Roger never (?) finds a speaker of Flemish while
visiting the region.
Roger mentions the city of Bailleul, which is in fact one of the bigger
cities in French Flanders and the Western Flemish language of the region is
very much a language of the more rural areas. And when people from the
countryside come to the city, they addept themselves to the city. Even here
in Zeeland, people who use Zeeuws/Zeelandic on a daily basis switch to (more
or less) Standard Dutch when coming to the capital Middelburg. They know
that in Middelburg most people speak Dutch instead of Zeeuws, so they leave
their Zeeuws at the city gate...

Furthermore, did Roger just listen in Bailleul, or did he try to speak with
people in their own language? Standard Dutch is hardly understood by most
speakers of West-Flemish in France... Perhaps Roger should try to go to a
play by the theatre group 'Volkstoneel voor Frans-Vlaanderen'. This group
stages Western Flemish plays throughout French Flanders each year and each
year it's really hard to conquer tickets! When I attended a play by this
Volkstoneel in Godewaersvelde, the place was packed. And everywhere around
me I heard people speak Western Flemish, switching to French and back to
Western Flemish. And they where not just old people, there were some 40 year
olds there as well...
I myself hardly ever use French when in French Flanders. My Zeelandic
dialect is understood perfectly overthere and when I start a conversation in
my dialect and the person I speak to doesn't understand Flemish/Zeeuws,
there is always someone near who does.

Roger, on your next trip to French Flanders, skip Bailleul/Belle and, if you
do want to visit a town rather than the countryside, try Bergues/Sint
Winoksbergen. In the streets, in shops, on the market place you will hardly
hear any Flemish spoken. But I remember spending a whole afternoon in the
Café des Sports, chatting with almost everyone in the pub and not having to
use one word of French!

Marco Evenhuis

-----

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Geachte Lowlanders,

Ik wist niet dat het ook zo erg gesteld was in Zeeland... Deze toestand was
dus niet veel beter dan die in Occitanië waar borden op de speelkoer stonden
met de tekst: "Soyez propre, parlez Français", of in Bergues waar in koeien
van letters op de buitenschoolmuur geschilderd stond: "Interdit de cracher
et de parler Flamand" (foto te vinden in het boek van Luc Vanackere "Hoog
bezoek in de Westhoek"), of in Belle en Duinkerke waar de jongeren die
Vlaams durfden te spreken werden afgeranseld, of nog in 't zuiden van
West-Vlaanderen waar een ware heksenjacht rond het Vlaamse schooltje van
Komen gewoed heeft (dit laatste is zelfs van ver na de IIe wereldoorlog!).

Het is allemaal nog niet zolang geleden en de schrik zit er nu nog
ongelooflijk diep in, zodat het zeer gevaarlijk is als buitenstaander
besluiten te trekken vanuit oppervlakkige waarnemingen!!!

Nu is het zeer de vraag of die blijkbaar van hogerhand gestuurde
(ON)MAATSCHAPPELIJKE  druk wel verbeterd is, en of nu wellicht alleen maar
de methoden wat verfijnd of aangescherpt zijn (of worden)?

En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:

Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele
keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn eigen
taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit
laatste is onlogisch vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van de groep om die beter
te leren kennen en waarderen.

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

Under the title Language survival
Gabriele Kahn and Ian James Parsley discussed aspects of trilinguality of
children.
Gabriele Kahn did not see a principal problem, Ian James Parsley had doubts if
a
full competence of three languages is possible.

In my working neighbourhood I have quite a lot of cases, where parents bring
up
their children in three languages.  I work in
Holland, but most staff on my wroking place  is not Dutch; many are of couples
of two different nationalities. In these cases often the parents both speak in
their own language to the children (e.g. French and English; German and
Italian
etc.), whilst the kindergarten, school and neighbourhood is Dutch speaking.
I know about a dozen cases like that. In only one case the child had problems
with one or two languages. In all other cases, as far I could see, a full
competence is achieved in three languages. In all these successful cases there
is a clear allocation of languages, e.g the mother always speaks German, the
father always Italian.
And it does not go really fully automatically - parents apparently do invest
more time in the language aspects of education than  in a standard
one-language
situation.
So for these cases my experience is not in line with Ian James Parsley's
perception.
The full competence means that in all three languages the children are able to
use quite different registers, a local dialect and the standard.

What happens here in some cases with so-called international staff in foreign
environment, thus with a small minority, is in other cases normal in a region.
To mention one now historical example, which I don't know directly myself (i
am
too young for that) but quite well from many persons coming from this
background, is Galicia, today Ukraine. There until 1918, and to a lesser
extend
also till 1940, a whole population grew up with full competence in Yiddish,
German and Polish. Of course there are many other - at least historical -
examples in Europe with a standard trilinguality. Maybe, to bring the topic
back
to LL, an example could be a (former) population of south Jutland (Denmark):
Denish/Low Saxon/German? Or also the Saterland Frisians: Frisian/Low
Saxon/German?

regards
Georg

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 15:31:28 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:31:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.073128.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> > any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several
> > hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even

Stefan Israel responded:

> Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
> speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
> speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.

The Euromosaic Report I mentioned earlier states that: "According to Röhrig
(1987), some 20% of people living in maritime Flanders are of Flemish
mother-tongue. However, only 5% of them use Flemish on a daily basis".
That's probably the reason Roger never (?) finds a speaker of Flemish while
visiting the region.
Roger mentions the city of Bailleul, which is in fact one of the bigger
cities in French Flanders and the Western Flemish language of the region is
very much a language of the more rural areas. And when people from the
countryside come to the city, they addept themselves to the city. Even here
in Zeeland, people who use Zeeuws/Zeelandic on a daily basis switch to (more
or less) Standard Dutch when coming to the capital Middelburg. They know
that in Middelburg most people speak Dutch instead of Zeeuws, so they leave
their Zeeuws at the city gate...

Furthermore, did Roger just listen in Bailleul, or did he try to speak with
people in their own language? Standard Dutch is hardly understood by most
speakers of West-Flemish in France... Perhaps Roger should try to go to a
play by the theatre group 'Volkstoneel voor Frans-Vlaanderen'. This group
stages Western Flemish plays throughout French Flanders each year and each
year it's really hard to conquer tickets! When I attended a play by this
Volkstoneel in Godewaersvelde, the place was packed. And everywhere around
me I heard people speak Western Flemish, switching to French and back to
Western Flemish. And they where not just old people, there were some 40 year
olds there as well...
I myself hardly ever use French when in French Flanders. My Zeelandic
dialect is understood perfectly overthere and when I start a conversation in
my dialect and the person I speak to doesn't understand Flemish/Zeeuws,
there is always someone near who does.

Roger, on your next trip to French Flanders, skip Bailleul/Belle and, if you
do want to visit a town rather than the countryside, try Bergues/Sint
Winoksbergen. In the streets, in shops, on the market place you will hardly
hear any Flemish spoken. But I remember spending a whole afternoon in the
Café des Sports, chatting with almost everyone in the pub and not having to
use one word of French!

Marco Evenhuis

-----

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Geachte Lowlanders,

Ik wist niet dat het ook zo erg gesteld was in Zeeland... Deze toestand was
dus niet veel beter dan die in Occitanië waar borden op de speelkoer stonden
met de tekst: "Soyez propre, parlez Français", of in Bergues waar in koeien
van letters op de buitenschoolmuur geschilderd stond: "Interdit de cracher
et de parler Flamand" (foto te vinden in het boek van Luc Vanackere "Hoog
bezoek in de Westhoek"), of in Belle en Duinkerke waar de jongeren die
Vlaams durfden te spreken werden afgeranseld, of nog in 't zuiden van
West-Vlaanderen waar een ware heksenjacht rond het Vlaamse schooltje van
Komen gewoed heeft (dit laatste is zelfs van ver na de IIe wereldoorlog!).

Het is allemaal nog niet zolang geleden en de schrik zit er nu nog
ongelooflijk diep in, zodat het zeer gevaarlijk is als buitenstaander
besluiten te trekken vanuit oppervlakkige waarnemingen!!!

Nu is het zeer de vraag of die blijkbaar van hogerhand gestuurde
(ON)MAATSCHAPPELIJKE  druk wel verbeterd is, en of nu wellicht alleen maar
de methoden wat verfijnd of aangescherpt zijn (of worden)?

En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:

Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele
keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn eigen
taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit
laatste is onlogisch vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van de groep om die beter
te leren kennen en waarderen.

Frans Vermeulen

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 20:36:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:36:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/L]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.123654.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]

> From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)
> Furthermore, did Roger just listen in Bailleul, or did he try to speak
with
> people in their own language? Standard Dutch is hardly understood by
most
> speakers of West-Flemish in France... Perhaps Roger should try to go
to a
> play by the theatre group 'Volkstoneel voor Frans-Vlaanderen'.

I obviously have just some casual experience, though:

a. A couple of weeks ago I participated at a dinnerof the Michiel de
Swaenkring in Cassel. The only people I have been speaking Dutch with,
were all Belgians. Although this circle is very Flemish-nationalistic,
the French participants, I had contact with, all apologised they spoke
French only. An ex-senator of Lier in Belgium started some Flemish
songs. Some French participants joind singing "lalala" parts of some
songs, and nothing more.

b. I was at the "hand-over festivities" of a restored painting of the
Driemaagdenkapel in Kaaster about 2 years ago. Contacts I had were only
in Dutch when Belgians or Dutchmen were involved. All Frenchmen I have
been talking with apologized they onlty spoke French. I heard some
Flemish though: Ternynck has been reading some of his poems in both
Flemish and French. I heard some months ago, his readings are very
popular at the Belgian side, in the Belgian Westhoek (Veurne,
Poperinge). Ternynck is from Steenvoorde and teaches English in
Hazebrouck.

c. I stopped for lunch in Hazebrouck some months ago. They had "potje
vleesch" on the menu. What I got was fish in a gelly substrate.

d. quoting (in Dutch) from an interview of the "famous" French-Flemish
singer Klerktje:

quote from
http://www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/folint1.htm

Nu spreken nog maar weinig mensen in zijn omgeving Vlamsch.
Mijn moeder en mijn vader zijn allebei dood. Maar we spreken niet veel
Vlamsch meer. Ook niet in de straat. Heel Koudekerke spreekt Frans. We
zijn hier gekomen in het jaar '73, toen waren er nog Vlamingen. We
konden toen nog Vlamsch spreken op onze boerderij, van de ene boerderij
tot de andere. Een beetje praten en zotte dingen zeggen in het Vlamsch.
Maar nu is dat gedaan, het is allemaal jong volk.

Omdat zijn vrouw geen Vlamsch sprak, hebben ze met hun kinderen enkel
Frans gesproken.
Mijn vrouw begrijpt geen Vlamsch, het was dus moeilijk om Vlamsch te
spreken met de kinderen. Maar nu beklaag ik dat. De kinderen zouden ook
graag Vlamsch kennen, want ze begrijpen me niet. Mijn zoon is van het
jaar '50, hij wordt volgend jaar dus 50. Mijn dochter is van '52.

e. quoting (in Dutch) from an interview of the "famous" French-Flemish
poet Ternynck:

quoting from:
http://www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/poeint1.htm

Welke taal hebt u met uw kinderen gesproken?
Ik heb vier kinderen: drie zonen en één dochter. Mijn kinderen kennen
slechts enkele woorden Vlaams want mijn vrouw is Franstalig en spreekt
geen Vlaams. Het was dus moeilijk voor de kinderen om Vlaams te leren.
Mijn vrouw kent maar enkele woorden zoals: peper, zout, brood en boter.

En hoe is het gesteld met de Vlaamse cultuur in de dorpen en steden
hier?
Er vinden veel activiteiten plaats in de dorpen zoals kermissen en
tentoonstellingen van schilders van de streek. Er gebeurt een beetje van
alles maar niet veel in het Vlaams, bijna alles speelt zich in het Frans
af. Er was bijvoorbeeld een bierfeest in Sainte Marie-Cappel bij Cassel.
De mensen waren er gekleed als onze voorouders maar spraken geen Vlaams.
Dat was een beetje jammer.

Hoe staan de jongeren aan wie u les geeft tegenover hun Vlaamse
"wettels" (wortels)?
Sommigen weten zelfs niet dat ze Vlaming zijn. Ze hebben een Vlaamse
familienaam maar zijn zich daar niet van bewust.We praten daar wel eens
over. Het is ook moeilijk om Vlaamse lessen te geven. Vorig jaar gaf ik
tussen de middag zo'n cursus aan zeven of acht jongeren. Dit jaar lukt
het niet omdat ik veel radiowerk heb en er geen tijd meer overblijft.

--> --> This is a bit in contradiction with, continue quoring

Waarschijnlijk wordt er steeds minder Vlamsch gesproken?
Het wordt niet veel meer gesproken. In deze streek zijn er nog ongeveer
100 000 mensen die het Vlaams begrijpen en een beetje spreken.

f. quoting (in Dutch) from an interview of Delannoy (Volkstoneel voor
Frans Vlaanderen, a group from Westouter, Belgium)

quoting from:
http://www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/tonint3.htm

Hoe ziet u de toekomst van het Frans-Vlaamse dialect?
Wij hebben beslist dat het de moeite loont om verder te doen dit jaar.
Het zou misschien heel eervol geweest zijn om nu het bijltje erbij neer
te leggen: " Het is 45 jaar mooi geweest en we hebben ons uiterste best
gedaan maar in Frans-Vlaanderen sterft dit dialect langzamerhand uit.
Dus kunnen we het gezelschap maar beter opdoeken". Velen echter spoorden
ons aan om door te gaan omdat het zeker nog loont. We zullen ermee
doorgaan, we mogen immers de geïnteresseerden niet in de kou laten
staan. We zullen dit doen, ook al komt er maar één toeschouwer meer naar
onze voorstelling. Voor ons ziet de toekomst er toch rooskleurig uit, de
toekomst van het Frans-Vlaams daarentegen allesbehalve. Uit de contacten
die ik en mijn collega's hebben, moeten wij eerlijk toegeven dat het
Frans-Vlaams aan belang verliest. Dat is erg jammer maar daaraan kunnen
wij helaas niets veranderen. De mensen zelf kunnen proberen om hun taal
in stand te houden.

endquote

> Roger, on your next trip to French Flanders, skip Bailleul/Belle and,
if you
> do want to visit a town rather than the countryside, try Bergues/Sint
> Winoksbergen. In the streets, in shops, on the market place you will
hardly
> hear any Flemish spoken. But I remember spending a whole afternoon in
the
> Café des Sports, chatting with almost everyone in the pub and not
having to
> use one word of French!

I most certainly will give feed-back next time I'm in the area.

> From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)
> Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
> Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
> beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
> Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
> verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer
en vele
> keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn
eigen
> taal!

Veeng ich eigelek ooch. Alpeteen ees het Limburgs as treektoal erkaant
in Holland en in modulle vjariggemok veur sjoe-ele in Bels Limburg. Tés
allein zow, as ich petoere ens Limburgs sjreef in déis lès, das ich nowt
gein reakse krèèg en ich dan ok van mezére ejt anes mot keeize. Ich höb
toch gjan daze mich versteun.

Allè, had oech mèr allemol gowd,
Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 23:54:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:54:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L,
 15.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.155418.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

At 08:47 14/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>You can't get round the fact that some of the essence of
>the language will be gone, because it already has gone
>(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum of
>colours - colour names are now expressed on a
>one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather than
>on their own scale).

I think that, with this observation, Ian James Parsley has brought
us close to the crux of how we judge the value of solutions such as
the school in Armagh, in preserving endangered languages.

What it really comes down to is the question of *why* we want to
preserve our endangered languages. One possible reason, put forward
recently on this very list, is simply to make a "statement": a gesture
of defiance towards people that we perceive as oppressors, who tried
to eradicate our language and/or culture, which we want to preserve.

If that's our aim, then a "gutted" version of an endangered language
will do perfectly well. The oppressors will neither know nor care
about the difference between eloquence in it or the reverse, and will
be antagonised equally (if at all) by either "whole" Irish (for
example) or the "gutted" version.

On the other hand, if the aim is to prevent "entire systems of
knowledge" (the expression in Gabriele Kahn's original posting) from
being lost, then "gutted" versions of endangered languages simply
aren't good enough. Ian James Parsley's observation about colours
in Irish illustrates my point: solutions such as the school in Armagh
may be preserving some semblance of a language but the *system of
knowledge*, which to some of us is the important thing, is being lost.

Of course, I can see that this may not be the important thing in the
estimation of the people who send their children there, who may
well be motivated more by political priorities. I certainly wouldn't
say that this attitude is wrong (although it's certainly different
from mine), but I think this difference in individual priorities needs
to be recognised when we assess the value of measures intended to
preserve endangered languages.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

While I have no argument with Colin's discussion above, I would like you to
consider another possibility, language revival, which is available where a
given moribund or extinct* language is seen as an important symbol and/or as
an essential expression of a given culture that enjoys a revival.

(* I include under "extinct" those languages that are still written but have
ceased to be used in natural spoken discourse situations.)

In such a case, it is not impossible to revive a language on the basis of
extant knowledge.  Until the early part of the 20th century, most people
assumed that this was impossible.  However, the case of Hebrew has shown that
it *is* possible under certain conditions.

In such a case scenario you must have available an extensive lexicon and
grammar preserved in copious literary sources and in numerous readers' passive
proficiency.  But as a naturally spoken language it begins for all intents and
purposes as a "gutted" one, to use Colin's terminology.  However, under the
right set of circumstances this "gutted" language will take on a life of its
own and will develop an "entire system of knowledge" beginning in earnest with
the first generation of native speakers.  This system is partly new and partly
traditional.  It is by no means divorced from the ancestral language.  So,
granted, most likely this revived language will be a rather different creature
if compared with the ancestral language, but it will adapt to the speakers'
needs and will, in one form or other, incorporate knowledge of past traditions
if these need to be discussed.

With the beginning of Zionism and European Jewish settlements in Palestine
there was a perceived need for a specifically Jewish, reuniting homeland
language.  A logical choice may have been Aramaic, since it was the language
last used in the area before the Jewish Diaspora and because it has modern
spoken descendants: Chaldean Aramaic (Iraq), Judeo-Aramaic (Iraqi Kurdistan,
Israel) and Assyrian Aramaic (Iran, Georgia, Russia, Iraq, Syria).  Most
speakers of the modern varieties, however, are not Jewish.  Hebrew *is*
specifically Jewish.  It ceased to be an everyday spoken language a long, long
time ago.  Thereafter it remained important as a liturgical language and as a
written language, mostly in religion and philosophy.  As far as I know, it
used to be occasionally used in rudimentary spoken forms by Jewish men who did
not have any other common language between them, much like Latin used to be
used among medieval Christian scholars and is still used in the Vatican.
Hebrew was revived and adapted to life in the late 2nd millennium, partly as
an artificial spoken language, by people who came together from all over the
world.  There are now about 5 million speakers of it, and of these close to
4.5 million are native speakers.  In some ways, the modern language is a far
cry from biblical Hebrew, especially phonologically.  (Arabic-speaking
immigrants tend to pronounce it more authentically, but they will eventually
adopt the current European-based pronunciation.)  However, Modern Hebrew is by
no means disconnected from Biblical Hebrew, and today's speakers can
understand ancient texts even if they are not thora scholars.  Personally I
witnessed how young native speakers created new words and expressions and
introduced phonological changes (e.g., /h/ [h] > zero) and how second-language
speakers gradually followed their lead (though sometimes grudgingly).

So, where there are extensive written sources and other types of records, it
appears to be possible to bring a language back to life.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/L]

1. Language discrimination in favor of "native" English in Brussels
2. A minority and a minority in this minority.

1. Quoting from "Trends International", February 2001

Queen's English.
... many Brussels-based European NGOs are busy practising language
discrimination.

  Toiletry and Perfumery Association Colipa advertised for a
receptionist/secretary "English mother tongue is an absolute must"...
(etc., etc.)
... Native English speakers clearly have a head strart when it comes to
getting jobs in Brussels-based European non-governmental organisations
and trade associations.
... prestigious organisations - among them the Energy Charter
Secretariay, the World Organisation of the Scout Movement, the Council
of European Municipalities and Regions, Eurydice and Eureka - were all
looking for employees who speak "mother-tongue" English...

Belgian lawyer Inge Vanderreken (who works for Claeys Engels labour law
firm) does believe something is very wrong. ... a case of indirect
discrimination... such job adverts violate the 1983 collective
Bargaining Agreement and 1981 laws on racism....

Professor Jean Jackmain...: Belgium has very little jurisprudence...The
lack of jurisprudence particularely applies to the private sector. In
the public sector, the recruitment process can be cancelled if
discrimination is proven.
... in the private sector, courts can only offer compensation and cannot
make the employer take the discriminated worker...

Non-native speakers of English who have suffered language discrimination
at the hands of a European non-governmental organisation may win their
case, Jacqmain believes. "But would the compensation be significant? And
would the victims have to go to court with their own money?"...

Petra Foubert is writing a PhD on discrimination at the Institute for
European Law in Leuven.... She points out that paradoxically legal
action may become more difficult if language discrimination becomes a
hot issue. European firms and associations preferring mother-tongue
English employees may simply advertise for "fluent" or "perfect" English
speakers, but only call native English speakers to interview.

Jacqmain:... The Belgian labour inspection and the justice systems must
be ready to use their powers. The trade unions must have a strong
strategy, says Jacqmain hopefully...

2. The Belgian German Community area (covering the "cantons" of Eupen
and Sankt Vith) is reviewing language education in the school system.
Since the French minority in this minoity area is "protected by some
facilities", the German Community is also forced to provide for French
language schools for their French minority.

Quoting from the daily newspaper Grenz-Echo (Eupen, B) of Donnerstag 15
Februar 2001 (in German):

Dekretentwurf der Regierung liegt vor...

... Deutsch bleibt weiterhin die Unterrichtssprache, während Französisch
die erste Fremdsprache ist. Andersum gilt die Regel in die
Minderheitenschulen (eine in Bütgenbach, zwei in Eupen, eine Herbesthal,
zwei in Kelmis) für französischsprachige Schüler. Neu sind allerdings
die Bedingungen, die bei der Gründung einer solchen Minderheidenschule
ab nun gelten sollen: 15 Kinder im Vorschulalter und 30 Primarschuler
sind hierfor nun erforderlich. Zudem müssen diese Schüler in der
Gemeinde, wo sich die Schule befindet, wohnen. Eine weitere Bedingung
ist die Muttersprache der Eltern, die der Unterrichtssprache der Schule
entsprechen muss. Auf diesen Gebiet sollen Sprachkontrollen durchgeführt
werden...

Was nun den reinen Spracheunterricht anbelangt, so sollen Kinder in
Kindergärten mindestens 25 Minuten pro Woche mit der Fremdsprache in
Kontakt kommen. ...

In der Primarschule soll die Unterrichtssprache mindestens fünf Stunden
pro Woche praktiziert werden. Die Fremdsprachen sollen in der 1. Stufe
drei Stunden/Woche (jetzt 2 Stunden), in der 2. Stufe 3 Stunden (keine
Veränderung) und in der 3. Stufe 5 Wochenstunden betragen.

Von Fachunterrichten in der Fremdsprache wird kategorisch abgesehen.
Fachelemente können dagegen in Fremdsprachenunterricht eingebaut
werden...

Der Zugang zu den französischen Schulen wird Schülern aus dem Ausland
verboten...

Im Regel- und Sondersecundarschulwesen werden die rein französischen
Abteilungen abgeschafft...
Neu ist auch der bilinguale Zweig, der 50 Prozent des Unterrichts (außer
der modernen Sprachen) in französischer Sprache vorsieht. In den anderen
normalen Studienjahren wird von 0 bis 30 Prozent Fachunterricht in
Französisch angeboten. Hier hat die Schule freie Wahl. Das Gesamtkonzept
des bilingualen Zweigs muss aber noch ausgearbeitet werden.

... Der Französischunterricht in den Grundschulen wird... nicht mehr vom
Klassenlehrer, sondern von einem Fachlehrer erteilt.

--- endquote

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: frank verhoft [frank_verhoft at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Beste Laaglanders


Op 15 februari schreef Frans Vermeulen [FV]:

>En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:
>Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie
en niet door de Lowland-L-administratie!))

Eerder dan aan "kwalijk opgefokte traditie" denk ik
dat beweegredenen au fond economisch zijn: ik herinner
mij nog levendig hoe onze eerste zelf-geproclameerde
Vlaamse Minister-President uitpakte met "Flanders
Technology". Voor een individu dat zich regelmatig
vergaloppeerde in bloed- en bodemtoespraken leek dit
een excellent geval van economisch opportunisme, of,
indien u Dhr Van den Brande wél kan velen, van een
doordachte strategie in een ruimer perspectief. Aan u
de keuze.
En geef toe, het klinkt beter of minstens toch
internationaler dan "Vlaemsche huisvlijt", en ik
vermoed ook dat een Angelsaksiche benaming een ietsje
meer bekendheid genereerde dan een eventuele
Nederlandse/Vlaamse.
Internationaal en economisch gezien is het Engels nu
eenmaal dominant, of wij (u en ik) daar nu de kriebels
van krijgen of niet. Alhoewel ik huiver bij het
concept "Global village", wordt het toch tijd om in te
zien dat de wereld groter is dan ons erf. Zonder dat
we daarom ons erfgoed moeten of mogen verloochenen.

[FV]
>iedereen in de strot geduwd

- Om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat Engels nu eenmaal
andermaal economisch gezien de beste taalkeuze is, én
omdat men in deze geglobaliseerde wereld makkelijker
tot communicatie kan overgaan in het Engels dan in
pakweg het Hausa, Awadhi, Sindhi of het Nederlands
(elk met 20 miljoen sprekers aldus
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/top100.html).
Trouwens, dit is, mutatis mutandis, zowat dezelfde
reden waarom Duitstaligen in de grensstreek met onze
noorderburen aardig massaal Nederlands studeren. Over
de grens zijn de arbeidsvoorwaarden en dus
toekomstperspectieven blijkbaar beter dan in de eigen
streek. Idem dito voor de (bescheiden) opgang van het
Nederlands bij onze Waalse landgenoten.
Erst kommt das Fressen, dan kommt die Sprache. Een
reden waarom 2/3 van de wereldpopulatie wél meertalig
is, en zich niet kan bezig houden met dit soort
(taalpolitieke) luxeproblemen. En neen, Brecht is geen
kameraad van mij. Maar dit terzijde.

Wil u chocolade slijten aan de andere kant van de
Noordzee, dan gaat u niet ver komen met "pralines" of
"sjokolat". Met "Belgian chocolates", daarentegen...
Ook op het gebied van de wetenschap, film, muziek,
kunst met grote of kleine K etc., is het Engels
uitgegroeid tot de lingua franca, of beter communa.
Wat gaan we doen met een fantastisch
communicatiemiddel als internet, als we niet bereid
zijn te communiceren, (desnoods) in een andere taal?
Anderzijds denk ik niet dat het leren en hanteren van
een tweede of derde taal afbruik doet of kan doen van
ons aller moers taal, integendeel. Ook het
introduceren van anderstalige (lees Engelse) woorden
in het Nederlands lijkt mij niet echt de taal
contamineren. Wat zou er nog van de Engelse taal
overblijven als we haar ontdoen van Romaanse,
Oudfranse, Latijnse, Griekse, ..., kortom niet-Engelse
"indringers"? Wat maakt het Engels als taal net zo
boeiend én veelzijdig én flexibel? Misschien kunnen we
daar beter een voorbeeld aan nemen in plaats van naar
onze navel te staren, of incestueus onze eigen (en
enige) taal te bedrijven.

In al mijn naiviteit meende ik het adagio dat de taal
gansch het volk is, zoals eens welluidend verwoord
door een of andere Vlaemsche paster, passé was, en dat
we verder zouden moeten kijken dan ons klokkenspel
lang is. In al mijn dwaasheid meende ik dat de strijd
voor de Vlaamse (Nederlandse) taal gestreden was -
gelukkig maar. Is nu de tijd van geslagen underdogje
spelen en blatende querulantie niet voorbij?
Ik dacht ook dat communiceren eerder een kwestie zou
moeten zijn van geven en nemen, dan van het
organiseren van dure en onnodige taalpolitieke
steekspelletjes of carrousels. En o ja, er is nog
nooit iemand gestorven door het leren van een andere
taal.

- En om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat het aanbod aan
Engelse taalcursussen uitgegeven en verspreid door
Britse uitgevers overweldigend is. Ze mogen dan rare
jongens zijn, die Britten, van "taalexport"
gecombineerd met commercie hebben ze wel cheese
gegeten. Dat beide zichzelf versterken, hoeft geen
betoog.
Mag ik hierbij ook even opmerken dat het binnen- en
buitenlands aanbod aan degelijke en uitgebalanceerde
cursussen Nederlands voor anderstaligen eerder
beperkt, en dan nog vooral van Nederlandse
("Hollandse") signature is, zelfs de populaire maar
niet al te diepgravende "Engelse" boekwerken als
"Teach yourself Dutch", of "colloquial Dutch", of
"Hugo's Dutch in three months". Vanwaar het
schrijnende gebrek aan Vlaamse interesse in dit soort
"taalexport", enkele uitzonderingen niet te na?

[FV]
>en uiteindelijk beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse
deelnemers mee te kwelen in het Engels

Alhoewel ik het Engels niet echt een welluidende taal
vind, tegenover bijvoorbeeld het Zweeds of het
Braziliaans-Portugees (en ik besef wel degelijk dat
dit een subjectief oordeel is dat linguistisch gezien
geen enkele relevantie heeft), denk ik dat het woord
"kwelen" onrecht doet zowel aan de taal van
Shakespeare, als aan de Vlaamse en Nederlandse
deelnemers die haar met succes hanteren, al dan niet
wisselend. Anglicist zijnde - half een leven geleden
althans - wil ik dan ook elke gelegenheid te baat
nemen om mijn Engels terug een beetje op te poetsen.
May I? En in mijn ijdelheid vind ik het ook leuker te
weten/hopen dat meer mensen mijn briefjes lezen als ik
deze in het Engels opstel.
Het is trouwens de eerste maal dat ik in een
taalkundige nieuwsgroep, met een internationaal
publiek dan ook nog, mag lezen dat meertaligheid, of
een poging daartoe, met zulk een rabiaat misprijzen
wordt behandeld.

Anderzijds kan ik mij inbeelden dat de de meeste
deelnemers wél geïnteresseerd zijn in de andere
Laaglandse talen, maar dat niet noodzakelijk iedereen
Nederlands-, Fries- of watdanook-kundig zijn.
Persoonlijk apprecieer ik een Engelstalige bijdrage
over het Schots, of een Schotse brief met een
Engelstalige annex of vertaling meer dan een 100% puur
Caledonische. Ben ik dan de enige die toegeeft niet
alle taalvarianten die gebezigd worden in deze groep
machtig ben, en dat ik soms, na een lange werkdag of
wat dan ook, niet geneigd ben er écht veel moeite aan
te besteden? Nee toch?
Misschien ben ik in de eerste plaats niet zó
geïnteresseerd in het Schots als taal op zich...
Mea culpa, maar op sommige avonden beperk ik mij tot
de Engelse of Nederduitse brieven, net zoals ik in
andere mailgroepen wel de Portugese en Spaanse
bijdragen lees, maar niet altijd de Galicische of
Catalaanse, maar dit terzijde.
In die zin vermoed ik dan ook dat de Engelstalige
nieuwsbrieven van bijvoorbeeld meneer Thijs over
Nederlandse en vooral Belgische/Vlaamse toestanden
geapprecieerd worden, ook door mensen die geen
gebenedijd woord Nederlands spreken. In die zin
apprecieer ik ook de Engelstalige berichten over
Schotse (en soms zeer scheve) toestanden, zonder mij
door de taal van Sean te moeten worstelen.

[FV]
>het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in
>de verschillende talen van de groep

Ja, het zou inderdaad absurd zijn om bijvoorbeeld een
Nederduits grammaticaal onderwerp aan te snijden in
het Fries of het Engels. En zo zijn er ook nog wel tal
van andere onderwerpen te bedenken die bijna smeken om
een bijdrage in de "eigen" taal, vooral dan,
inderdaad, wanneer het gaat om "inzicht te krijgen in
de verschillende talen van de groep" (of bedoelt u "in
de grammaticale structuur van deze of gene taal"?).

Neen, niet noodzakelijk wanneer het gaat over
socio-linguisistische situaties (zie hoger).

En de taal van Wiliam is nu eenmaal wijder verspreid
onder de deelnemers dan de taal van Joost of Hendrik.
En mag ik me hierbij luidop afvragen hoeveel
niet-Nederlandstaligen mijn briefje tot op dit punt
gelezen hebben (waves back!!).

[FV]
>en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele keren
leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van
>zijn eigen taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag
er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit laatste is
onlogisch
>vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van
>de groep om die beter te leren kennen en waarderen.

Ik durf mij ook vragen te stellen bij uw opvatting van
"het logische opzet", en of dit het enige opzet mag
zijn.
Ik dacht dat deze nieuwsgroep *ook* bedoeld was om te
communiceren, om gedachten uit te wisselen over
(minderheids)talen, dialecten, taalvarianten, de
status en perceptie daarvan etc. - wat zeer leerzaam
kan zijn -, en niet enkel en alleen om de respectieve
talen an Sich. Maar ik herhaal mij.

Het is net de variatie, de diverse onderwerpen, de
verschillende talen, *EN* de keuzemogelijkheid die
geboden wordt door de LL-redactie, die deze lijst zo
boeiend maken.

Ik wil mij alvast excuseren, en in de eerste plaats
bij Dhr Vermeulen, voor de toon van deze brief. Hij
mag dan al entwat polemisch zijn, het laatste dat ik
beoog met dit schrijven is wie dan ook persoonlijk te
beledigen.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Frank Verhoft
frank_verhoft at yahoo.com

Resumee in English:
Et pour les anglais le même.
(Mijn excuses voor dit gemene grapje, maar ik kon het
echt niet laten ;-))

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 16:33:17 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:33:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.083317.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/L]

> From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
>
> I most certainly will give feed-back next time I'm in the area.
>
>> From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
>> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)
>> Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
>> Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
>> beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
>> Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
>> verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer
> en vele
>> keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn
> eigen
>> taal!
>
> Veeng ich eigelek ooch. Alpeteen ees het Limburgs as treektoal erkaant
> in Holland en in modulle vjariggemok veur sjoe-ele in Bels Limburg. Tés
> allein zow, as ich petoere ens Limburgs sjreef in déis lès, das ich nowt
> gein reakse krèèg en ich dan ok van mezére ejt anes mot keeize. Ich höb
> toch gjan daze mich versteun.
>
> Allè, had oech mèr allemol gowd,
> Roger

Geachte Lowlanders,

Het laatste stukje van Roger Thijs in het Limburgs is zeer zeer leerzaam en

zelfs voor een Westvlaming heel goed begrijpbaar; bovendien geeft het
inzicht hoe al de Nederlandse (lees Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten uitgedeind zijn
vanuit een oudere gemeenschappelijke taal hoe goed men soms ook z'n best
wil
doen om uit te blinken in verschillendheid. Dergelijke op het aktuele
inspelende stukken missen wij in de Lijst; 'k zou zeggen doe zo verder en
heb geen schrik dat ge niet zult gelezen zij.

Beste groeten,

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (03)[D/E/German]

Geachte Lowlanders,

Met mijn zeer kort betoog (in vergelijking met onderstaande de reactie)
wilde ik alleen wijzen op enkele belangrijke oorzaken én op de
onbetrouwbaarheid van oppervlakkige waarnemingen door buitenstaanders, én
op
de, over het algemeen, al even onbetrouwbare statistieken. Wie zit er
trouwens achter die statistieken? Wie zit er achter de verspreiding van de
vele clichés die onderhuids pleiten voor een van de kaart vegen van minder
grote talen, om nog niet te spreken van minderheidstalen?

Als ik pleit tegen een vereenvormiging van 'onze' voertaal dan kan dit niet

meteen weggewuifd worden door argumenten die hiermee niets te zien hebben!

Wie dit koppelt aan mogelijke vijandigheid tegenover het Engels of eender
welke andere taal zit behoorlijk fout. Men kan er niet onderuit, een lijst
als Lowland-L dankt zijn bestaan aan de belangstelling voor de
verscheidenheid.

Als men wil allusie maken op de vorige Vlaamse Minister-President is het
wellicht belangrijk kennis te nemen van de verschillende uitgaven over het
Handvest van de Europese Talen onder Van den Brande. De hierin opgenomen
studies wijzen op het economisch belang van de taalverscheidenheid als
drijvende motor van de economie... Wat betreft Flanders Technologie was er
een voorstel om de naam "Vlaanderens Internationale Technologische
Vakbeurs"
te gebruiken met eventueel een Engelstalige ondertitel, en dit ware
waarschijnlijk beter geweest en had dit kunnen de ondergang voorkomen van
deze beurs, want uiteindelijk hebben de eigen Vlaamse bedrijven en Vlaamse
bezoekers afgehaakt omdat het in de laatste afleveringen al Engels was wat
de klok sloeg, uitzondering gemaakt dan voor de grote prestigieuse Waalse
stand -als een oase- waarin het Engels als het ware taboe leek. Zo zie u
maar hoe taal en economie samenhangt en hoe men er zich niet kan vanaf
maken
met enkele opgelapte clichés.

Beste groeten

Frans Vermeulen

> From: frank verhoft [frank_verhoft at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Language survival
>
> Beste Laaglanders
>
> Op 15 februari schreef Frans Vermeulen [FV]:
>
>> En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:
>> Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie
> en niet door de Lowland-L-administratie!))
>
> Eerder dan aan "kwalijk opgefokte traditie" denk ik
> dat beweegredenen au fond economisch zijn: ik herinner
> mij nog levendig hoe onze eerste zelf-geproclameerde
> Vlaamse Minister-President uitpakte met "Flanders
> Technology". Voor een individu dat zich regelmatig
> vergaloppeerde in bloed- en bodemtoespraken leek dit
> een excellent geval van economisch opportunisme, of,
> indien u Dhr Van den Brande wél kan velen, van een
> doordachte strategie in een ruimer perspectief. Aan u
> de keuze.
> En geef toe, het klinkt beter of minstens toch
> internationaler dan "Vlaemsche huisvlijt", en ik
> vermoed ook dat een Angelsaksiche benaming een ietsje
> meer bekendheid genereerde dan een eventuele
> Nederlandse/Vlaamse.
> Internationaal en economisch gezien is het Engels nu
> eenmaal dominant, of wij (u en ik) daar nu de kriebels
> van krijgen of niet. Alhoewel ik huiver bij het
> concept "Global village", wordt het toch tijd om in te
> zien dat de wereld groter is dan ons erf. Zonder dat
> we daarom ons erfgoed moeten of mogen verloochenen.
>
> [FV]
>> iedereen in de strot geduwd
>
> - Om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat Engels nu eenmaal
> andermaal economisch gezien de beste taalkeuze is, én
> omdat men in deze geglobaliseerde wereld makkelijker
> tot communicatie kan overgaan in het Engels dan in
> pakweg het Hausa, Awadhi, Sindhi of het Nederlands
> (elk met 20 miljoen sprekers aldus
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/top100.html).
> Trouwens, dit is, mutatis mutandis, zowat dezelfde
> reden waarom Duitstaligen in de grensstreek met onze
> noorderburen aardig massaal Nederlands studeren. Over
> de grens zijn de arbeidsvoorwaarden en dus
> toekomstperspectieven blijkbaar beter dan in de eigen
> streek. Idem dito voor de (bescheiden) opgang van het
> Nederlands bij onze Waalse landgenoten.
> Erst kommt das Fressen, dan kommt die Sprache. Een
> reden waarom 2/3 van de wereldpopulatie wél meertalig
> is, en zich niet kan bezig houden met dit soort
> (taalpolitieke) luxeproblemen. En neen, Brecht is geen
> kameraad van mij. Maar dit terzijde.
>
> Wil u chocolade slijten aan de andere kant van de
> Noordzee, dan gaat u niet ver komen met "pralines" of
> "sjokolat". Met "Belgian chocolates", daarentegen...
> Ook op het gebied van de wetenschap, film, muziek,
> kunst met grote of kleine K etc., is het Engels
> uitgegroeid tot de lingua franca, of beter communa.
> Wat gaan we doen met een fantastisch
> communicatiemiddel als internet, als we niet bereid
> zijn te communiceren, (desnoods) in een andere taal?
> Anderzijds denk ik niet dat het leren en hanteren van
> een tweede of derde taal afbruik doet of kan doen van
> ons aller moers taal, integendeel. Ook het
> introduceren van anderstalige (lees Engelse) woorden
> in het Nederlands lijkt mij niet echt de taal
> contamineren. Wat zou er nog van de Engelse taal
> overblijven als we haar ontdoen van Romaanse,
> Oudfranse, Latijnse, Griekse, ..., kortom niet-Engelse
> "indringers"? Wat maakt het Engels als taal net zo
> boeiend én veelzijdig én flexibel? Misschien kunnen we
> daar beter een voorbeeld aan nemen in plaats van naar
> onze navel te staren, of incestueus onze eigen (en
> enige) taal te bedrijven.
>
> In al mijn naiviteit meende ik het adagio dat de taal
> gansch het volk is, zoals eens welluidend verwoord
> door een of andere Vlaemsche paster, passé was, en dat
> we verder zouden moeten kijken dan ons klokkenspel
> lang is. In al mijn dwaasheid meende ik dat de strijd
> voor de Vlaamse (Nederlandse) taal gestreden was -
> gelukkig maar. Is nu de tijd van geslagen underdogje
> spelen en blatende querulantie niet voorbij?
> Ik dacht ook dat communiceren eerder een kwestie zou
> moeten zijn van geven en nemen, dan van het
> organiseren van dure en onnodige taalpolitieke
> steekspelletjes of carrousels. En o ja, er is nog
> nooit iemand gestorven door het leren van een andere
> taal.
>
> - En om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat het aanbod aan
> Engelse taalcursussen uitgegeven en verspreid door
> Britse uitgevers overweldigend is. Ze mogen dan rare
> jongens zijn, die Britten, van "taalexport"
> gecombineerd met commercie hebben ze wel cheese
> gegeten. Dat beide zichzelf versterken, hoeft geen
> betoog.
> Mag ik hierbij ook even opmerken dat het binnen- en
> buitenlands aanbod aan degelijke en uitgebalanceerde
> cursussen Nederlands voor anderstaligen eerder
> beperkt, en dan nog vooral van Nederlandse
> ("Hollandse") signature is, zelfs de populaire maar
> niet al te diepgravende "Engelse" boekwerken als
> "Teach yourself Dutch", of "colloquial Dutch", of
> "Hugo's Dutch in three months". Vanwaar het
> schrijnende gebrek aan Vlaamse interesse in dit soort
> "taalexport", enkele uitzonderingen niet te na?
>
> [FV]
>> en uiteindelijk beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse
> deelnemers mee te kwelen in het Engels
>
> Alhoewel ik het Engels niet echt een welluidende taal
> vind, tegenover bijvoorbeeld het Zweeds of het
> Braziliaans-Portugees (en ik besef wel degelijk dat
> dit een subjectief oordeel is dat linguistisch gezien
> geen enkele relevantie heeft), denk ik dat het woord
> "kwelen" onrecht doet zowel aan de taal van
> Shakespeare, als aan de Vlaamse en Nederlandse
> deelnemers die haar met succes hanteren, al dan niet
> wisselend. Anglicist zijnde - half een leven geleden
> althans - wil ik dan ook elke gelegenheid te baat
> nemen om mijn Engels terug een beetje op te poetsen.
> May I? En in mijn ijdelheid vind ik het ook leuker te
> weten/hopen dat meer mensen mijn briefjes lezen als ik
> deze in het Engels opstel.
> Het is trouwens de eerste maal dat ik in een
> taalkundige nieuwsgroep, met een internationaal
> publiek dan ook nog, mag lezen dat meertaligheid, of
> een poging daartoe, met zulk een rabiaat misprijzen
> wordt behandeld.
>
> Anderzijds kan ik mij inbeelden dat de de meeste
> deelnemers wél geïnteresseerd zijn in de andere
> Laaglandse talen, maar dat niet noodzakelijk iedereen
> Nederlands-, Fries- of watdanook-kundig zijn.
> Persoonlijk apprecieer ik een Engelstalige bijdrage
> over het Schots, of een Schotse brief met een
> Engelstalige annex of vertaling meer dan een 100% puur
> Caledonische. Ben ik dan de enige die toegeeft niet
> alle taalvarianten die gebezigd worden in deze groep
> machtig ben, en dat ik soms, na een lange werkdag of
> wat dan ook, niet geneigd ben er écht veel moeite aan
> te besteden? Nee toch?
> Misschien ben ik in de eerste plaats niet zó
> geïnteresseerd in het Schots als taal op zich...
> Mea culpa, maar op sommige avonden beperk ik mij tot
> de Engelse of Nederduitse brieven, net zoals ik in
> andere mailgroepen wel de Portugese en Spaanse
> bijdragen lees, maar niet altijd de Galicische of
> Catalaanse, maar dit terzijde.
> In die zin vermoed ik dan ook dat de Engelstalige
> nieuwsbrieven van bijvoorbeeld meneer Thijs over
> Nederlandse en vooral Belgische/Vlaamse toestanden
> geapprecieerd worden, ook door mensen die geen
> gebenedijd woord Nederlands spreken. In die zin
> apprecieer ik ook de Engelstalige berichten over
> Schotse (en soms zeer scheve) toestanden, zonder mij
> door de taal van Sean te moeten worstelen.
>
> [FV]
>> het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in
>> de verschillende talen van de groep
>
> Ja, het zou inderdaad absurd zijn om bijvoorbeeld een
> Nederduits grammaticaal onderwerp aan te snijden in
> het Fries of het Engels. En zo zijn er ook nog wel tal
> van andere onderwerpen te bedenken die bijna smeken om
> een bijdrage in de "eigen" taal, vooral dan,
> inderdaad, wanneer het gaat om "inzicht te krijgen in
> de verschillende talen van de groep" (of bedoelt u "in
> de grammaticale structuur van deze of gene taal"?).
>
> Neen, niet noodzakelijk wanneer het gaat over
> socio-linguisistische situaties (zie hoger).
>
> En de taal van Wiliam is nu eenmaal wijder verspreid
> onder de deelnemers dan de taal van Joost of Hendrik.
> En mag ik me hierbij luidop afvragen hoeveel
> niet-Nederlandstaligen mijn briefje tot op dit punt
> gelezen hebben (waves back!!).
>
> [FV]
>> en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele keren
> leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van
>> zijn eigen taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag
> er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit laatste is
> onlogisch
>> vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
> zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van
>> de groep om die beter te leren kennen en waarderen.
>
> Ik durf mij ook vragen te stellen bij uw opvatting van
> "het logische opzet", en of dit het enige opzet mag
> zijn.
> Ik dacht dat deze nieuwsgroep *ook* bedoeld was om te
> communiceren, om gedachten uit te wisselen over
> (minderheids)talen, dialecten, taalvarianten, de
> status en perceptie daarvan etc. - wat zeer leerzaam
> kan zijn -, en niet enkel en alleen om de respectieve
> talen an Sich. Maar ik herhaal mij.
>
> Het is net de variatie, de diverse onderwerpen, de
> verschillende talen, *EN* de keuzemogelijkheid die
> geboden wordt door de LL-redactie, die deze lijst zo
> boeiend maken.
>
> Ik wil mij alvast excuseren, en in de eerste plaats
> bij Dhr Vermeulen, voor de toon van deze brief. Hij
> mag dan al entwat polemisch zijn, het laatste dat ik
> beoog met dit schrijven is wie dan ook persoonlijk te
> beledigen.
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Frank Verhoft
> frank_verhoft at yahoo.com
>
> Resumee in English:
> Et pour les anglais le même.
> (Mijn excuses voor dit gemene grapje, maar ik kon het
> echt niet laten ;-))

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 20:40:34 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:40:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.124034.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Frank Verhoft [frank.verhoft at pandora.be]
Subject: Language survival

Geachte heer Vermeulen, beste Laaglanders

Dhr Thijs schreef op 15 februari
>Veeng ich eigelek ooch. Alpeteen ees het Limburgs as treektoal erkaant
>in Holland en in modulle vjariggemok veur sjoe-ele in Bels Limburg. Tés
>allein zow, as ich petoere ens Limburgs sjreef in déis lès, das ich nowt

>gein reakse krèèg en ich dan ok van mezére ejt anes mot keeize. Ich
höb
>toch gjan daze mich versteun.

Op 16 februari schreef Frans Vermeulen:
>Het laatste stukje van Roger Thijs in het Limburgs is zeer zeer leerzaam
en zelfs voor een
>Westvlaming heel goed begrijpbaar; bovendien geeft het inzicht hoe al de
Nederlandse
>(lees Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten uitgedeind zijn vanuit een oudere
gemeenschappelijke taal
>hoe goed men soms ook z'n best wil doen om uit te blinken in
verschillendheid.

Na ettelijke malen dit fragment gelezen te hebben, blijven er nog steeds
vragen in mij opkomen. Jammer genoeg is in mijn geval "geïnteresseerd"
niet synoniem met "getalenteerd", en smeekt de overjaarse student in mij om
wat meer uitleg bij bovenstaande regels, zowel aan de heer Vermeulen als
aan de andere Laaglanders.

Mijn vragen:
1. Op welke manier geeft het Limburgse fragment "inzicht hoe al de
Nederlandse (lees Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten zijn uitgedeind vanuit een oudere,
gemeenschappelijke taal?"
Het woord "uitdeinen" suggereert een kerngebied, waar situeerde zich dat?
En wat was er zoal te vinden in dat kerngebied?
Wat bedoelt u met "een oudere, gemeenschappelijke taal" die uitdeinde?
Indien u bedoelt Gemeengermaans, Westgermaans, of de Westgermaanse
varianten zoals gesproken door de Friezen, Franken en Saksen, drie stammen
(of stamverbanden, zo u wil) die hun politieke, militaire, economsiche en
taalkundige invloed deden gelden op de gebieden waar men nu Nederlands
spreekt, dan is deze vraag een beetje overbodig mijnentwege.
Of bedoelt u een soort Proto-Vlaams, Oer-Vlaams, Uhr-Vlaams?

2. Wat bedoelt u met Oud-Vlaams?
Aangezien ik deze term nog niet ben mogen tegenkomen in mijn studieboeken,
kan ik hem niet plaatsen. Kan u mij aub helpen deze term duiden, liefst
geografisch, linguistisch en in de tijd.
Is deze term inwisselbaar bijvoorbeeld met wat Van Loon "(westelijk)
Oudnederlands noemt" (in bijv. _Historische fonologie van het Nederlands_,
Leuven 1986, pagina 36), de variant die men *grosso modo* ten westen van de
Schelde sprak in de circa de 10de, 11de, 12de eeuw? Op deze pagina zet hij
het "(westelijk) Oudnederlands af tegenover de Oostnederlandse dialecten
(niet in absolute zin trouwens, maar enkel om het allofonisch karakter van
een taalkundig gegeven te illustreren dat andere "resultaten" genereerde
aan weerszijden van de Schelde).
Of verwijst Oud-Vlaams in louter geografische zin naar het (latere)
historische graafschap Vlaanderen, de drie huidige provincies (Oost, West
en Zeeuws) plus Frans-Vlaanderen, of naar het huidige, moderne Vlaanderen
tussen de Belgische kust en de Duitse grens?
En welke dialecten vallen onder wat u noemt "AL de Nederlandse (lees
Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten" (mijn nadruk).

3. Ook de zinsnede "hoe goed men soms ook z'n best wil doen om uit te
blinken in verschillendheid" stemt mij tot nadenken. Hoe bedoelt u dat?
Hebben taalkundigen als Berteloot, Gysseling, Van Loey, Vangassen e.a. zich
dan al die jaren enkel maar bezig gehouden met aan te tonen hoe mensen zich
in de loop van de geschiedenis hebben uitgesloofd "om uit te blinken in
verschillendheid"? En bedoelt u met de verscheidenheid de verschillende
accenten, dialecten, varianten?

Iek 'ôp iel 'ard te meuge diele in a experties, en nateurlék oeëk in die
van d' ander Laoglanders.

Met vriendelijke groeten en alvast van harte bedankt!


Frank Verhoft

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: Language death

Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Therefore the answer is a
>relatively simple one - bring the child up in its
>native tongue, and in the official national or
>regional language. That way the child has a good
>knowledge of its own identity and culture through its
>own language, while being at absolutely no
>disadvantage (perceived or otherwise) to fellow
>nationals - in fact in some cases it will be at an
>advantage since it will probably find learning further
>languages later in educational life easier.

The last point is one of the main reasons why many (non speaker) parents
are
interested in sending their bairns to Gaelic medium nursery schools. Gaelic

is of course percieved as a 'language'. Is the same possible for Scots.
Probably not at the moment because many people still percieve Scots to be
'bad English' or worse 'slang'.

Roger Thijs wrote:

>I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
>nationalism.

Nationalism means different things to different people.
From, in my opinion legitimate desire for people living in a particular
'territory' to have control over their own destiny - this includes all
people living in the 'territory' an not just those with a particular
'ethnicity'.
To we are the 'master race' - no need to mention where that leads.

Colin Wilson wrote:

>For these reasons, although I'd be very pleased to be shown to be
>wrong, I have large doubts about the effectiveness of this kind of
>solution in preserving endangered languages, unless it is supported
>by other measures in the broader community. On its own, it will
>certainly produce people who can express *some* things in the
>endangered language: my question is, is that really enough? If
>people cannot express themselves fully in a particular language,
>naturally they will turn to another in which they can.

Quite right. If minority or lesser used languages are to survive they have
to be used (as far as possible) for all aspects of daily life. Otherwise
they juist become marginalised and eventually redundant.

>Television, on the other hand, has been much more damaging because
>it teaches people how to say a great many things in English that no
>school-teacher would ever have taught them.

Thus contributing to the marginalisation of the language and its eventual
redundancy.
In the case of Scotland, most Scots on TV usually presents Scots speakers
at
the worst as being 'socially inferior' or 'uneducated' and at best being
'old fashioned and uncool'. Hardly the stuff to boost self esteem among
Scots speakers. The amount of (any) Scots on TV can be measured in Hours
per
decade and not hours per week.

Thomas wrote:

>In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
>speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in

>the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we
did
>not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve
its
>goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to

>Scots I hope this is still the case.

Things have and are thankfully changing. The 'tawse' or 'lochgelly' has now

been outlawed thanks to European Union human rights legislation. More
schools are accepting the use of Scots by pupils. Some teachers now
actively
encourage it.

Ian wrote:

>Scots activists would probably
>think they would lose support if their cause was
>linked to Scottish Nationalism.

Indeed this is beginning to occur. Many in the labour party see
'campaigning
for recognition etc.' for the Scots language as nothing but rampant SNPism.

The Idea of linguistic rights is alien to them. Though many of the come
from
'socialist' backgrounds and argue for 'equality' this only goes as far as
our 'right' to be equally English.

>although I am a great fan of the Scots tongue and am
>keen to see it used regularly, I do not propose that
>it should *replace* English, or even that it should be
>used in all contexts. Business meetings of the future
>will take place in English, computers will use English

Once again if Scots is not used for all aspects of daily life it becomes
marginalised and eventually redundant.
Business meetings can take place in any language if all present speak it. I

of course accept English as the defacto lingua franca. I've 'talked' Scots
to Sandy about computer programming in a chatroom. I pretty sure we'd have
no problem doing the same face to face. Computer software may well be in
English because the economics behind producing Irish, Gaelic, Welsh or
Scots
versions is seen as prohibitive. Though even this could be used as a
marketing ploy. Do all the people who use Bank of Scotland (Banca na
h-alba)
Gaelic language cheques really speak Gaelic? This helps stop
marginalisation. Of course for the above, written Scots would probably need

a (more) standard form for it to be taken seriously.
Before the New year a well known supermarket chain produced an advertising
leaflet, and delivered it, I assume, to every household in Scotland,
selling
mostly alcohol and sindry product assumed to lessen the after effects of
the
afore mentioned product. The slogan at the top of the leaflet was 'Aw the
best'. the rest was of course in English. The same supermarket chain has
little signs allover the place claiming to be 'Proud to serve scotland'. I
myself find marketing ploys like that a bit silly and see through them. But

using the Scots language for advertising is great - and we as consumers
should demand more. The socialits may all want us to be equally 'English'
but capitalist gits like me say vote with your money!

>- even if you don't think that should be the case, the
>fact is it *will* be. Parents and governments will,
>quite rightly, look down on any attempts to revive or
>preserve minority languages which threaten their
>children's knowledge of English.

That's why it's important to show that bilingualism or for that matter
bidialectism is an asset not a threat.
As long as Scots has no perceived status it will be seen as a threat by
many
parents. No one should be forced to learn Scots if it ever became a serious

part of the curriculum.

Roger Thijs wrote:

>I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find any of
>these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several hours in the
>center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day,

The same is often heard in Scotland. People (Journalists) hostile to the
Scots language movement (if I can call it that) often claim never to have
encounerd Scots speakers. Of course not. It the situations they find
themselves in English is the expected language of communication. Get a job
with a building company (as a builder), go to a working class pub etc.
You'll hear Scots there.

Stefan Israel wrote:

>Many of my linguist colleagues trying to investigate these
>stigmatized varieties have run into social brick walls this way.
> They often have to get a speaker to introduce them gradually
>into the right social context.

This is also true for Scots. Even in my own family. My umwhile aunt only
spoke Scots to family and friends. If a stranger came into the house she
would, in mid sentence, switch to English. Though I did once experience the

humerous situation where my sister and her daughter came to visit. My
sister's daughter grew up in England and can only speak English. My aunt of

course didn't switch because she was family. The poor lass couldn't
understand a word.

Ron Wrote:

>In such a case, it is not impossible to revive a language on the basis of
>extant knowledge.  Until the early part of the 20th century, most people
>assumed that this was impossible.  However, the case of Hebrew has shown
that
>it *is* possible under certain conditions.

>There are now about 5 million speakers of it, and of these close to
>4.5 million are native speakers.

Are these native speakers monolingual? Do they speak another language and
if
so is it with native like fluency?
Is Hebrew L1 and another language L2? Or are they truly bilingual?

Andy Eagle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

> Andy, you asked with reference to Hebrew speakers:
>
> Are these native speakers monolingual? Do they speak another language and
if
> so is it with native like fluency?
> Is Hebrew L1 and another language L2? Or are they truly bilingual?

It is impossible to generalize in the case of a population as diverse as
that of Israel (even if we leave out the non-Jewish parts of it).

I dare say that nowadays a very high and growing percentage of the
Hebrew-speaking population uses Hebrew as first language, especially now
that two or three generations of native or at least near native speakers
have been raising their children to be native Hebrew speakers.  Especially
in urban communities there is much diversity.  People may or may not use
one or more languages other than Hebrew at home (and we are talking many,
many languages in toto).  However, there is much pressure to use Hebrew
outside the home.  Most native-born children end up with very high levels
of proficiency, and I think in most cases it would be hard to distinguish
L1 speakers from L2 speakers by adult age.  Especially kibbutzim ('kibbutz'
= a type of commune) produce predominantly native speakers, certainly those
that retain communal childcare.  In the latter, children are not raised by
their parents but live in specific children's quarters within a kibbutz,
having predominantly contacts with other Hebrew-speaking children and with
teachers, only seeingtheir family of birth on visits.

We have a few subscribers from Israel.  Maybe they can answer Andy's
question more competently.

Let me describe "my own" ("adoptive") Israeli kibbutz family as an
example.  Rachel and Menachem, the parents, immigrated from Poland (Lodz).
They are native Yiddish speakers and speak Polish with native proficiency.
Ilana, their oldest daughter, was born in Poland and began life as a native
Polish speaker, arriving in Israel as a 6-year-old.  In her adult years
(when I met her) her Polish was still fluent but somewhat deficient.  She
uses Hebrew as her dominant language and appears to be a native speaker to
outsiders.  Her personal notes and mumblings were all in Hebrew, as far as
I could determine.  The next child, Michael, was born in Poland, too, and
was spoken to in Polish when he was an infant.  He was less than a year old
when the family arrived in Israel.  At first his parents kept speaking
Polish to him, and he first picked up Arabic because they first lived in an
immigrants' area in which the majority came from Arabic-speaking regions of
the world, and there were also constant contacts with Arab-Israelis.  The
family moved into a kibbutz with communal childcare when Michael was about
3 years old.  He was immersed in Hebrew and in his late teens (when I met
him) spoke Hebrew the same way truly native speakers do.  I asked him about
it, and he said he considered Hebrew his only, his "native" language.  He
no longer spoke Polish or chose not to speak or listen to it (while Ilana
did), and he claimed not to understand Yiddish, though I saw signs to show
that he understood it at least somewhat.  Sara, the youngest, was born in
the kibbutz and was raised with a clear predominance of Hebrew, for by the
time she was an infant the entire family could speak Hebrew, and Sara only
came for visits from her Hebrew-only living and schooling environment.  She
told me she only understood snippets of Polish and Yiddish.  Occasionally
she would throw in Polish and Yiddish phrases in a teasing or joking manner
when she spoke with her parents in Hebrew, and she sometimes teased me with
Yiddish expressions because I spoke mostly Yiddish with her parents.  She
had a strong Hebrew "accent" when she did so, as strong an "accent" as in
English, which she had begun to learn in school.  Most definitely, Sara is
a native Hebrew speaker.  I am not sure how to classify Michael.  He said
he forgot all of his Arabic and Polish and considered himself a monolingual
Hebrew speaker, though he, too, learned English as a foreign language in
school.  The parents still tend to speak Polish in private talks with
Ilana.  They speak Hebrew to her when other people are around.  They speak
only Hebrew to the other two children, and these children help keep their
Hebrew up-to-date.  (All three children spoke only Hebrew with me, though
occasionally they tried out their English on me.)

I hope this will help shed some more light on the possibility of language
revival.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 20:54:21 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:54:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.125421.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German, two spellings) and English.]

Beste Leeglanners,
     Vundaag' bün ik insneet, un daarwegen stüür ik Ju nochmaal twee
neddersassische/nedderdüütsche Snee-Riemels för Kinner to, mit mien
ingelsch Översetten, un een vun de Riemels ok mit phoneetsche Schrift
(SAMPA).  De Texten hebbt Berend Klönne un ik al in'n Christmaand 1998
bröcht.  Dat eerste Riemel kümmt ut de Provinz Drenthe in de Nedderlannen
un is in 'n drenthschen Dialekt.  Dat hett de drenthsche Sanger Ab Drijver
bekanntmaakt.  Dat tweede Riemel kümmt ut Noorddüütschland, is in 'n
noordsassischen Dialekt un is vun Klaus Groth (1819-1899).  Dat lett so as
of "Fru Meddern" in dat tweede Riemel dat sülvige is as "Fru Holle." Ik
will höpen, de Riemels seggt Ju to.
     Fründliche Gröten,
     Reinhard/Ron

Beste Leyglanders,
     Vundaag' bün ik in-sneyd, un daar wegen stüyr ik Ju noch maal twey
Neddersassische/Nedderdüütsche sney-rymels vör kinder tou, mit myn Ingelsch
ööversetten, un eyn vun dey rymels ook mit foneetsche schrift (SAMPA).  Dey
teksten hebt Berend Klönne un ik al in d'n Kristmaand 1998 bröcht.  Dat
eyrste rymel kümt uut dey provinss Drenthe in dey Nedderlanden un is in 'n
Drenthschen dialekt.  Dat het dey Drenthsche sanger Ab Drijver bekand
maakt.  Dat tweyde rymel kümt uut Nord-Düytschland, is in 'n
Nord-Sassischen dialekt un is vun Klaus Groth (1819-1899).  Dat lett so as
of "Fru Meddern" in dat tweyde rymel dat sülvige is as "Fru Holle." Ik wil
hööpen, dey rymels segt Ju tou.
     Vründliche gröyten,
     Reinhard/Ron

Dear Lowlanders,
     Being snowed in today, I thought I might as well (re)introduce you to
two Low Saxon/Low German children's poems about snow, accompanied by my
English translations, and one of the poems with phonetic transcription
(SAMPA).  Berend Klönne and I first presented the texts in December 1998.
The first poem is from the Province Drenthe in the Netherlands and is in a
Drenthe dialect.  It was made famous by the Drenthe singer Ab Drijver.  The
second poem is from Northern Germany, in in a North Saxon dialect and was
written by Klaus Groth (1819-1899).  "Fru Meddern" in the second poem seems
to be the same as "Fru Holle" (German "Frau Holle").  I hope you will enjoy
the peoms.
     Friendly regards,
     Reinhard/Ron

***

(1)

Vrouw Holle

Stillek dele valt de snei
op witte voten komp de nacht
Vrouw Holle nemp heur beddesprei
en schud uut peul de vlokkenvracht

Stroek en bomen staot zo bloot
gien blad um an te trekken
Vrouw Holle redt heur uut de nood
en giet ze underdekken

De wereld was 'n aole man
met vet in doezend rimpels plooid
Vrouw Holle meuk er pankouk van
met zukersnei en riem bestrooid.

Vrouw Holle kik uut 't hemelraom
en lacht ies stil tevreden
Heur pewul is leeg, de wereld blaank
een witte hof van Eden.


Mother Holle

Softly the snow comes falling down.
Night is arriving on white paws.
Mother Holle takes her bedspread
And shakes the flake load from the bed.

Bushes and trees are standing so bare.
No single leaf they have to wear.
Mother Holle saves them from their woe
And gives them cover under snow.

The world was an old man
With fat draped in a dozen folds.
Mother Holle makes pancakes from it,
Sprinkled with powdered sugar and cream [?].

Mother Holle looks from heaven's window
And smiles with quiet satisfaction.
Her pillow empty, the world all bright
A Garden of Eden, beaming white.

***

(2)

(Original)

De Snee

De Snee ut 'n Heben
kummt eben, alleben
in Grimmelgewimmel
hendal ut 'n Himmel,
hendal ut de Wulken
as Duben, as Swulken,
as Feddern, as Duun
op de Hüüs, op 'n Tuun,
as Duun un as Feddern:

Fru Meddern! Fru Meddern!
Herinner! Kruup ünner
un roop alle Kinner!
De Höhner, de Küken!
Schüllt kamen, schüllt kieken!
Schüllt kieken un sehn,
de groten, de kleen'n,
alleben, alleben
den Snee ut 'n Heben.


(Phonetic)
dEI snEI

dEI snEI ?u:t=n 'he:b=m
k`Umt ?e:b=m ?a'le:b=m
?In 'grIm=lgevIm=l
hEn'dQ:l ?u:t=n 'hIm=l
hEn'dQ:l ?u:te 'vUlk=N
?as 'du:b=m ?as 'svUlk=N
?as 'fEd3n ?as du:n
?Op dEI hy:.s ?Op=m tu:n
?as du:n ?Un ?as 'fEd3n

fru: 'mEd3n fru: 'mEd3n
hE'rIn3 kru:p ?Yn3
?Un roUp ?ale 'k`In3
dEI 'h9In3 dEI 'k`y:k=N
SYlt k`Q:m: SYlt 'k`i:k=N
SYlt 'k`i:k=N ?Un zEIn
dEI 'groUt=n dEI klEIn
?a'le:b=m ?a'le:b=m
dEn snEI ?u:t=n 'he:b=m


(Translation, R. F. Hahn)

Snow

Snow from the sky
keeps coming, all over
in dense blurry flurry
down from the heavens
down from the clouds
as doves and as swallows,
as feathers, as down
on the houses, the fence,
as down and as feathers:

Mrs. Meddern! Mrs. Meddern!
Down, down now! Come down
and call all the children!
The chickens, the chicks!
Must come and must look!
Must look and must see,
the big ones, the small ones,
all over, all over
the snow from the sky.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 01:30:01 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:30:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.173001.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (02)

Criostoir et al,

I hope other members will forgive us discussing Irish, but I do feel
the issues are similar to those for other languages.

There are two fundamental points to any linguistic study:
1) All languages are equal in the needs of their users
2) Language is about communication

There are far-reaching consequences here.

English is the language of international business and computing. Fact.
There is no point in lesser-used languages (or any others, for that
matter) trying to compete with English in such arenas - to do so would
hinder communication (point 2), but it does not make other languages
inferior (point 1). It is simply that 'World English' (a slightly
simplified Americanized version) is the one used. English itself has
had to borrow hundreds of thousands of terms from other languages over
time because it was not used in the contexts they were used in
(Latinate legal terms, Greek medical terms, localized terms for things
found by colonizers such as 'chocolate' or 'bungalows'). Likewise it
is futile for supporters of lesser-used languages to pile money and
resources into developing their own terms for English words in these
arenas - they will happen naturally, and usually though not always the
English will be borrowed direct (eg German 'Website', 'Internet',
'Links', 'downloaden' BUT Scots 'wabsteid'). I do get concerned when
activists get bogged down in arguments about such pointless issues
when there is so much work to be done making their lesser-used
languages more relevant to modern society generally. These languages
will never be relevant in scientific journals or documents on
international management techniques. They *can* be relevant in general
society - in the home, in pubs and clubs, on the sportsfield etc.

At a certain level national languages, particularly English, will
always be used - because of point 2). Lesser-used languages have to
target their areas of use carefully - based on the genuine needs of
their users rather than on trying to compete with others.

If we take Irish, the signs are encouraging, although you still wonder
whether it might be a little too late. For a long time activists in
Northern Ireland have annoyed reasonable people (even Catholic
Nationalists) by making apparently ludicrous demands. However, there
are indications with new adverts from the All-Ireland Language Board
(simply depicting Irish being used in a restaurant for example - no
threat to anybody, just genuine use) and other policies that are being
suggested that maybe, just maybe, the right people are leading Irish
the right way, so that one day it will again be heard in the right
cultural context (e.g. Gaelic games, where at present it often does
not go beyond a symbolic level) and in the right social context (it
would be nice to see the day when you would always hear Irish after a
trip to any major shopping centre on the island). Lowlanders may feel
they have something to learn from this.

Regards,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]

Georg,

> Under the title Language survival
> Gabriele Kahn and Ian James Parsley discussed aspects of
trilinguality of
> children. Gabriele Kahn did not see a principal problem, Ian James
Parsley had doubts if
> a full competence of three languages is possible.

Well, that's not quite what I meant (the fault is probably mine, I
wasn't clear enough). I don't doubt that a full competence in three
languages is possible, but I do doubt that it is possible *at the same
time*. It could be that the children get so used to 'switching' that
the 'changeover' of second language happens quite naturally and within
minutes. However, I know that to 'change' from having Scots as my
second language to either German or Spanish takes me *days*. On a
recent trip to Spain I could hardly ask for directions at the airport
because the words just didn't come to me, and it was a good 48 hours
before I was remotely confident. However, after a week I would have
had trouble switching into Scots or German immediately.

> And it does not go really fully automatically - parents apparently
do invest
> more time in the language aspects of education than  in a standard
> one-language situation.

I think this backs up my point to an extent (actually it's not really
*my* point, it's other researchers'). The point is that it *would* go
fully automatically if the children were *bilingual*. Once they have
to be trilingual (or multilingual) then more time and effort will have
to be spent training them to recognize one language from another and
ensuring that they do not use words from one in another.

Or not, as the case may be? I await responses with interest!

Regards,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

You wrote:

> I don't doubt that a full competence in three
> languages is possible, but I do doubt that it is possible *at the same
> time*.

I know exactly the experience you are relating.  "At the same time" is the
operative phrase here.  Yes, it is very familiar to me.  However, I have
noticed in my own case that foreign languages compete for a place only then
when they are still at a type of intensive learning stage.  I can
comfortably switch between three languages.  If I learn another one and my
mind is really preoccupied with this intensive learning process, the
language that occupied that compartment previously is thrown out, at least
temporarily.  However, once this new language passes a certain mark after
which it becomes virtually second nature it seems to be shifted from the
learning compartment to the compartment of fluent languages, and a new
language may move into the vacated compartment.  This is not to say that I
stop learning any of the languages.  It only means that my mind is no
longer preoccupied with learning those that have moved from the basement
into the penthouse.  However, I think that children, certainly younger
ones, seem to have a much easier time with this, and to us adults it may
seem as though they acquire three languages at the same time, comfortably.

I wrote about the Israeli family.  I need to add that the three children
are raising their own native Hebrew speakers now, children that are not or
hardly influenced by the first languages of their parents and grandparents.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 16:33:28 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:33:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.FEB.2001.083328.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (03)
[D/E/German]

A chairde,

Please excuse me for the delayed reply to what Ian
asserted.

> >You can't get round the fact that some of the
> essence of
> >the language will be gone, because it already has
> gone
> >(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum
> of
> >colours - colour names are now expressed on a
> >one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather
> than
> >on their own scale).

I would like to know where Ian read this, as it is not
the case. The Irish I speak and all Irish I come into
contact with retains the native Gaelic colour
spectrum, which is structurally mismatched to the
English version. Whilst I understand that there are
moves within "official Irish" (i.e., the monitored
literary standard) to impose an alien colour scheme,
the facts on the ground remain that we use our Gaelic
system:

liath = Eng. grey, sky-blue
glas = Eng. blue, aquamarine, torqouise, grass-green.
gorm = Eng. navy blue (also "duine gorm" = a black
   person)
uaine = Eng. forest-green, dark green, green-brown.
donn = Eng. mud-brown, soil-dark
dubh = Eng. deep black, ink-black
is dorcha = darkening (of all colours)
is geal = brightening (of all colours, also used to
       describe white)
corcra = Eng. purple, burgundy
bán = Eng. white
dearg = Eng. red, scarlet, maroon
rua = Eng. red of hair
buí = Eng. yellow, orange

I have noticed that orange is described in the
literary standard as "oráiste" which is clearly a loan
from English, although no-one uses it in everyday
speech. The Irish for "Orangemen" is "na Fir Buí"
which also plays with the Irish allusive "buí" to mean
"thankful" (i.e., "buíochas" = gratitude, effusive
praise).

I hope I haven't overstepped the mark but a correction
was required.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Ron,

> I know exactly the experience you are relating.  "At the same time"
is the
> operative phrase here.  Yes, it is very familiar to me.  However, I
have
> noticed in my own case that foreign languages compete for a place
only then
> when they are still at a type of intensive learning stage.  I can
> comfortably switch between three languages.

Some researchers have suggested three are possible (I wonder if in my
case English and Scots take the first two 'compartments', so actually
German, Spanish and others are competing for a third). However, in my
case, arriving to live in Granada for a few months in early 1998, I
had to 'throw out' fluent German (fluent to the extent that at the
time I chose to read German rather than English on multilingual signs)
in order to have a go at novice's Spanish. My suspicion is still,
therefore, that most people can only manage two *at the same time*,
and that those who appear to manage three (or more) are simply those
who can manage the 'changeover' between them quickly. But then, I
would not consider myself a natural linguist (I'm more mathematically
minded), so my experiences are by no means necessarily definitive.

Further notes on this appear on pages 362-3 of:

Crystal, D., 1987. _Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_. Cambridge,
New York and Melbourne: Cambridge University.

Regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Feb 17 16:58:38 2001
From: parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk (Ian James Parsley)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:58:38 -0000
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.FEB.2001.165838.0000.PARSLEYIJ@YAHOO.COM>

Cristoir et al

I am glad to hear that Cristoir's own Irish and that which others use
with him retains the older Celtic colour spectrum. It is also helpful
to this list, because it leads on nicely to the points we were making.

In what I call 'Learners' Irish', i.e. that often taught at courses in
Belfast, colours are assigned directly to their English equivalents:

bán - white
liath - grey
glas - green
gorm - blue
donn - brown
dubh - black
dearg - red
oraiste - orange

'Rua' is retained for the hair colour, but other than that the only
difference with English is that 'glas' is used to describe a 'grey'
horse. I believe this indeed based on the modern standard as Cristoir
suggests. These courses also have a tendency towards 'Anglicized
simplification' not only with vocabulary but also with grammar (e.g.
conjunctions are simplified) and pronunciation (the /r/ in words such
as 'Eire' and 'Doire' is very distinct from anything in English, but
it is pronounced as in English even by teachers at some courses in
Belfast).

However, not all courses do this. Some teach 'Donegal Irish'
(occasionally played up as 'Ulster Gaelic'), and these, I would
imagine, retain all the structures of the Donegal Gaeltacht, including
a dative case distinction which is generally lost in 'Standard Irish'.

But I am missing the point, which is that this backs up what other
list members, most particularly Colin, have been saying in recent
submissions. Firstly, it shows that there would appear to be a divide
in terms of purpose with Irish. Some people seem content to teach a
'watered down' version, and even to base the 'standard' on it, and I
have been told even by Foras na Gaeilige Board members that this is
deliberate to simplify the language and therefore entice more people
to learn it. Personally I would feel betrayed by such a version, and
many others are determined not only that this particular lesser-used
language should survive, but that it should survive 'properly'.

Scots in Ireland is more obviously divided in this way. People are
content to use 'speir' in all positions for 'ask' simply because it
looks different, even though Scots speakers actually distinguish
between 'speir' (meaning more 'consult') and 'ask' (meaning more
'request'). Many activists are not remotely concerned even about using
'anent' ('about' in the sense of 'regarding', NOT 'approximately'!)
properly, and old words that have long since been lost in Ulster or
even in Scots generally are not only revived, but their meanings
extended. I cannot describe a lot of the Scots you see even in
official publications in Ireland as anything other than barbaric, with
a complete disregard for the intricacies of grammar and idiom but far
too much attention paid to 'maximally differentiating' from English,
while failing to recognize that Scots words that look like English are
as much a part of the Scots tongue as those that aren't. I personally
have no time for this 'cheat version' (nor for the 'learners'
standard' version of Irish) - I hold to the firm belief that if you
are going to teach it, you teach it properly. But that's maybe because
I'm not politically motivated?

Regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley


From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 21:32:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:32:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.FEB.2001.133206.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

At 16:58 17/02/01 +0000, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Some people seem content to teach a
>'watered down' version, and even to base the 'standard' on it, and I
>have been told even by Foras na Gaeilige Board members that this is
>deliberate to simplify the language and therefore entice more people
>to learn it.
>I cannot describe a lot of the Scots you see even in
>official publications in Ireland as anything other than barbaric, with
>a complete disregard for the intricacies of grammar and idiom but far
>too much attention paid to 'maximally differentiating' from English,

The irony here is that the Irish nationalists want to create
a language that's *more* like English, whereas the British nationalists
want to create one that's *less*, all of which is exactly the opposite of
what common sense would suggest.

Basically, I agree with every word that Ian James Parsely wrote and,
in my view, these anecdotes serve to illustrate the pitfalls in front
of anyone who seeks to revive a language into spoken usage. It's
especially unfortunate given that, with these two languages, there
are still speakers who do know these languages as living forms of
expression. Unfortunately, some people's eagerness to make
A Statement far exceeds their willingess or ability to stay quiet,
pay attention, and learn from others, or even just to look up the
dictionary. I suspect that this tendency is the greatest obstacle
to language revival, rather than anything inherent in the task.

As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
"gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
and more. Alasdair Allan, who wrote a Ph.D thesis in Scots a few years ago,

invented the word "hyperlallanism" as a convenient derogatory term for
this tendency. Ian James Parsley might care to adopt it in the form
"hyperullanism".

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

A chairde,

Ian makes some astute observations about Irish which
are of great relevance to the situation of language
survival not just in a Celtic but also a Lowland
context. Further, we must bear in mind that the terms
of reference for most endangered or minority (insert
qualifying "negative" adjective as desired, a mindset
that all of us within our language communities have to
avoid) languages are the same, whether it be because
of a colonised/coloniser, suppressed/suppressor or
decimated/decimator relationship to the "killer"
language. Nonetheless I thank Ron for permitting the
digression into specifically Irish parameters.

I would like to know how far the dominant language in
a Lowland situation affects the languages we discuss
here: for example, has there ever been a specifically
Frisian colour spectrum that has now been imbalanced
toward Dutch? Or are the two languages too close
genetically to engender different colour schemes?

> In what I call 'Learners' Irish', i.e. that often
> taught at courses in Belfast, colours are assigned
> directly to their English equivalents.

This is only partly true, and implies a blanket
standard applied to Irish in the Six Counties. The
situation with regards to the Gaelic in Belfast is
complex, because of the Shaw's Road Gaeltacht (SRG;
i.e., an enclave of native Irish speakers in west
Belfast) who are a source of great local pride and who
exert some influence on how the language is taught in
the local vicinity.

Ian describes "Learner's Irish" and it seems to me he
is in fact describing the Irish of the SRG (a minority
variety of Irish of Belfast with a few hundred
speakers), which is massively contaminated by a heavy
English/Ulster-Scots substrate, to the point that the
syntax of the language is severely affected and
divergent from other varieties of Irish. Indeed, SRG
Irish speakers also freely mix English reflexives into
their speech ("Tá sé ocras air, like, you know?") and
use "aye" ("An mbeidh cupán tae agat?" "Aye, beidh mé,
go raibh maith agat"). This enrichment of the language
is a source of great pride to the SRG community and to
west Belfast.

However, the consequence has been an undeniable
"Germanicisation" of the more difficult sections of
Irish, at least to English-speaking ears. This is of
course the Anglicisation that Ian is referring to.
(Although I have to say it seems to me to be more of
an Ulster-Scotsisation given that the English of the
Six Counties tends to be heavily affected by Ulster
Scots.) Therefore the Gaelic colour spectrum has been
discarded in Shaw Road's Gaelic in favour of a
one-to-one with English but I'm unsure whether this
will last considering that most Irish speakers shun
the English spectrum. We may see the Irish of the SRG
become gradually regaelicised over time as the network
grows and evolves and is reintegrated into Donegal
Irish.

> These courses also have a tendency towards
> 'Anglicized simplification' [...] and pronunciation
> (the /r/ in words such as 'Éire' and 'Doire' is very
> distinct from anything in English, but it is
> pronounced as in English even by teachers at some
> courses in Belfast).

This is entirely true and a good point well made. In
the Irish of the SRG, the entire system of
palatisation and velarisation has been severely
compromised, and indeed even aspiration and
nasalisation (i.e., mutation and eclipsis) is not
always present. Further, most plural pronouns have
been lost so that "agaibh" (at you, plural) is simply
replaced as per English with "agat" (at you,
singular). This is the hallmark of re-learned
languages, where the "old language" (in this case,
Belfast English), which itself involves a substrate
from the dormant language (i.e., Irish) has itself
become a substrate, with attendant interference.
As the Belfast English phonology is idiosyncratic when
compared to the rest of Ireland, we see that
"compromise-sounds" have come to the fore.

As the velarised /r/ of which Ian speaks is difficult
for English speakers to articulate, it is ignored, so
that "Éire" and "Doire" are pronounced amongst
learners as [e:ir@] and [do^r@]. From my own
experience I have noticed that the ghamma sound is
also becoming obsolete in relearnt Irish: it tends to
simply be pronounced as [g]. However there is a
tendency amongst Irish speakers who have spent
considerable time in the Gaeltacht to utilise this
sound, if unevenly. The consequence of using [g] for
ghamma is that it can confuse: /dh/ in Irish is also
the ghamma phoneme. This produces a situation whereby
the poet Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill has her name variously
pronounced [ni: go:n at lj], [ni: jo:n at lj], [ni:
hjo:n at lj] and even [ni: ho:n at lj]. All of these are
correct insofar as the speakers know who they are
referring to. I would argue that an imperfect relearnt
phonology hardly discredits the fact that someone has
taken the effort to relearn their language.
Nonetheless the point stands that structural and
phonological interference in relearnt Irish is a major
"code-noise" slough, and occassionally difficult.

> However, not all courses do this. Some teach
> 'Donegal Irish' (occasionally played up as 'Ulster
> Gaelic'), and these, I would imagine, retain all the
> structures of the Donegal Gaeltacht...

This is a little inaccurate, again, and clarification
is needed. Donegal Irish enjoys high prestige amongst
learners in the nine counties of Ulster as the native
"Ulster" variant of Irish; consequently, the Gaeltacht
villages are flooded with learners from all over the
nine counties, so that they can learn "their" Gaelic
rather than "RTÉ Irish". Donegal Irish is extremely
idiosyncratic and serves as a transitional variant
between the Irish of Connacht and the Scots Gaelic of
the Inner Hebrides. It employs the heavy palatisation
characteristic of all speech in the nine counties
(i.e., the [j] after initial consonants which also
features in Ulster English and Ulster Scots) and a
distinctive syntax and grammar that appears quite odd
to speakers of other variants of Irish.

Donegal Irish is the prestige variant taught in all
Six County schoolrooms except where Shaw's Road Irish
is the immediate native form. Even in the SRG the
Irish community recognises that Donegal Irish is
relatively "uncontaminated" (I use the term
reservedly), unlike their own variety. (Nonetheless
SRG Irish-speakers are proud of their language's
vitality and idiosyncracies which they do not see, and
nor should they, as negative or "impure".)

I would argue that Donegal Irish is in fact the most
"Irish" in its syntax of all Gaelic variants. I learnt
Conmara Irish (i.e., the Irish of the extreme west of
Ireland, Connacht) and I am frequently baffled by my
friends who all use the Donegal Irish variant. Not
only is there much "code noise" from the phonology of
Donegal Irish but the actual grammar at times appears
to make no sense. An example of this is a simple
greeting we use (glossed as "How are you?" in
textbooks):

Donegal Irish: Cad é mar atá tú?
               lit. "What it like is you?"
Conmara Irish: Conas tá tú?
               lit. "How are you?"

We see, then, that Donegal Irish's distinctive
features may be put down to retention of native forms,
or interference from Ulster Scots. To digress to
personal anecdote, I find Donegal Irish fairly
confusing; the words are there but the way they are
arranged is erratic and strikingly odd. This is no
barrier to communication, but I tend to find myself
speaking Irish more often and more easily to my
Munster Irish-speaking friend, avoiding undue mistake.

> Firstly, it shows that there would appear to be a
> divide in terms of purpose with Irish. Some people
> seem content to teach a 'watered down' version, and
> even to base the 'standard' on it, and I have been
> told even by Foras na Gaeilige Board members that
> this is deliberate to simplify the language and
> therefore entice more people to learn it.

This is indeed the case, although I'm not sure that
Foras na Gaeilge should be implicated fully in this.
These attempts to Anglicise (as that is what so-called
"simplification" of Irish really is in this context)
the Gaelic are ignored and derided as "RTÉ Irish" or
"Dublin 04 Irish" - RTÉ (Raidió Teilifíos Éireann)
being the Irish television network and Dublin 04 being
a bourgeois Britain-orientated postal district
renowned for its apathy toward Irish (indeed a
counter-Irish campaign has been waged from Dublin 04
since the 1960s under the title of "the Language
Rights Movement").

Consequences of subverting the language to the learner
are nothing short of catastrophe, I feel. One throws
away the vitality of the language to peg it to the
dominant language. When this occurs, the "minority"
tongue becomes something of an appendage, dependent
and colonial still, and this entirely defeats the
purpose of language survival. I love the Irish
language: I love its modes of expression, its
richness, its vibrancy, its sounds and its words, its
grammar and its vocabulary. I do not want to have a
"half-Irish" language that is in fact a hollowed out
slave to English. I would argue, in fact, that it is
better that a few people learn "factual Irish" in
continuity with the past (that is, native forms such
as Donegal Irish, Conmara Irish etc.) rather than
everyone learn "hypothetical Irish" based on
"simplicity" and "ease of acquisition".

This is precisely the dilemma facing Cornish today,
and seriously undermining its continued revival. Some
rather philanthropic faux-linguists have "recreated
historical Cornish" rather than simply picked up where
the last speakers left off, which would of course be
the most honest and true to the language approach.
Misfortunately, though, this "Unified Cornish" is a
mixture of reconstructed cognates from Welsh and
Breton, neologisms, and literary terms from plays of
c.1500. Even more lethally, a linguist named Ken
George gave himself the moral right to invent a whole
new "Cornic" (as Glanville Price scathingly rejected
it) that is in fact a Cornubisation of Breton and
distinctly Breton-looking. The only Cornish language
that has historical and factual legitimacy is
Curnoack, which, rather ironically, uses the
English-based orthography of the final speakers.
Nonetheless, it is the Cornish spoken in Cornish
mouths in the 18th and 19th Centuries. The
introduction of George's "Kernewek Kemmyn" caused a
schism in the small Cornish-speaking community which
reverberated through Cornish nationalism as a whole.
Thankfully, George's ridiculous "north Breton" is now
thoroughly discredited.

> Personally I would feel betrayed by
> such a version, and
> many others are determined not only that this
> particular lesser-used
> language should survive, but that it should survive
> 'properly'.

This is entirely the issue at stake. One has to be
true to the language, and not to one's ambitions -
languages are not static, but neither are they
infinitely malleable. Take for example the situation
of neologisms in Israeli Hebrew: Ben-Yehuda created a
whole slew of "suitable" terms, of which perhaps 60-70
percent were accepted. Elsewhere loans are simply
Hebraicised and used in everyday speech. Nonetheless
this is equally "proper Hebrew" because the native
speakers themselves have accepted the loans.

I am reminded of the state of Romanian in the 19th
Century, when the tongue was discovered to have
Romance affliation and a mass "Frenchification"
programme was put into practice, including the switch
from the Cyrillic alphabet, the purging of Slavic and
Magyar loans and their replacement with French, and so
on. I am left to wonder if modern Romanian is "proper
Romanian" given that it was tampered with and abused
by linguists with their own agendas.

Conclusively, then, we have learnt that it is one
thing to revive a language, but quite another to claim
historical legitimacy for our new tongue. And as the
politicos amongst us argue that historical legitimacy
is the sole arbiter of legitimacy in the present, it
seems to me that manufactured languages and variants
enjoy no more legitimacy and right than does Volapuk
or Esperanto.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

Ian wrote:

> I cannot describe a lot of the Scots you see even in
> official publications in Ireland as anything other than barbaric, with
> a complete disregard for the intricacies of grammar and idiom but far
> too much attention paid to 'maximally differentiating' from English,
> while failing to recognize that Scots words that look like English are
> as much a part of the Scots tongue as those that aren't. I personally
> have no time for this 'cheat version' (nor for the 'learners'
> standard' version of Irish) - I hold to the firm belief that if you
> are going to teach it, you teach it properly. But that's maybe because
> I'm not politically motivated?

There are no official publications in Zeeuws/Zeelandic and the language is
not teached at any level, but roughly the same discussion about 'purer' and

less 'purer' forms of the language as Ian describes can be found in Zeeland

as well.
In Noe-magazine, the only magazine in Zeeuws, you'll find articles, short
sories and poetry in Zeeuws. Some authors prefer to 'write as they speak'.
That is, using quite a few 'hollandisms' and thus more or less neglecting
the older, more typically Zeelandic forms. The same goes for expressions,
grammar, etc. Other writers use a more literary form of Zeeuws, using old
words that are still quite commonly known throughout Zeeland, but are only
seldomly heard in every day speech. A third approach is exaggerating things

in very much the same manner as Ian described for Scots and using the older

forms in ways they were never used before...
I find it very hard to 'label' these different approaches: they all have
there advantages and disadvantages and even the last approach sometimes has

its charms in terms of creativity and flexibility.

Within two years, there will be a teaching method for Zeeuws for adults
available. Ian mentions proper teaching of a language. But how do you
define
proper teaching if one can't even define proper use of the language. I
mean,
who determines what is proper Scots, Gaidhlig, Zeeuws, etc.? Is it the
language that is used in every day life in the early 21th century? Is it
the
language as it was used in rural areas before, say, World War II?

Saemenvattienge vo die a gin Iengels wille verstae: bin je noe goed bezig a

je je stuten in een stutemaele stekt of a je je botrammen in een broôddoôze

stopt?

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E/S]

Marco,

You asked:

> Within two years, there will be a teaching method for Zeeuws for adults
> available. Ian mentions proper teaching of a language. But how do you
define
> proper teaching if one can't even define proper use of the language. I
mean,
> who determines what is proper Scots, Gaidhlig, Zeeuws, etc.? Is it the
> language that is used in every day life in the early 21th century? Is it
the
> language as it was used in rural areas before, say, World War II?

It is easier to begin by defining what it is *not*. To quote from
Purves' Scots Grammar (1997: 4-5):

'Against a background of continuing erosion of colloquial Scots, it is
arguable whether a substantial proportion of recent writing,
purporting to be in Scots, can properly be regarded as Scots at all.
Much contemporary material contains few of the features which
characterize the language, and appears to consist of attempts at back
translation from English into personal notions of what Scots is. What
can we make, for example, of such a sentence as "Ah wudnae of came if
Ah had of knew?" The acceptance of such a sentence as modern Scots
perpetuates the insulting notion that Scots is simply corrupt English.

Some of the so-called Scots currently written and published may be
syntactically and idiomatically English, and attempts to compensate
for its inauthenticity by spelling English words in an unusual way. It
is not possible to write well in Scots without experience of
colloquial speech or without a sound knowledge of Scots idiom and
syntax. In the absence of distinctive features of Scots grammar, as
exemplified in such sayings as "Auld men dees an bairns suin forgets",
the language loses its unique quality. Good Scots certainly cannot be
written by anybody who decides to invent his own orthography and
grammar off the cuff, because it is too much effort to discover the
standards inherent in speech and in the substantial corpus of
literature which already exists. A passage of English cannot be
transformed into Scots simply by substituting Scots words for English
words without reference to structure and idiom.'

With reference to Scots vis-a-vis English (but I'm sure the same
applies to Zeeuws, Low Saxon or whatever), it is undoubtedly difficult
even for the most proficient of speakers to write Scots well simply
because they are not used to doing so. However, some attempt must be
made. It is difficult to define some texts, but there is no dispute
that a large proportion of texts recently published, perhaps most
notably in Ulster, are actually English with strange spellings and odd
words (or common words used oddly) thrown in. You *can* define that.

So, for example, it is questionable whether the so-called 'verbal
concord rule' (illustrated above my 'auld men deeS' and 'bairns
forgetS') is actually necessary in Scots. Many Scots speakers adhere
to it, many (including most poets) don't. However, a phrase such as
'twa yeirS' or 'fowerty-echt mileS' is undoubtedly English to me
despite the Scots numbers - Scots speakers would always say 'twa yeir'
and 'fowerty-echt mile' (i.e. singular noun used after numerals where
relating to time, distance or length) - although I suspect even this
usage is dying under influence from modern English and general
analogical tendencies.

With regard to spelling, it is not good enough to invent a whole new
orthography, particularly one with no apparent system which is bound
to be full of inconsistiencies. What is required is general agreement
of traditional usage, and then general agreement on any moves towards
diverging from it. Few Scots writers would dispute such spellings as
'guid' and 'abuin' (which reflect a vowel pronounced quite differently
across dialect areas), but there remain other debates ('deid' vs.
'deed', 'sheuch' vs. 'sheugh', 'aw' vs. 'aa' etc). What *is* required
is consistency (if you use 'deid' use 'heid', if you use 'sheuch' use
'eneuch', if you use 'aw' use 'haw' and 'baw' etc).

So there may be no such thing, always, as 'correct Scots' (or Zeeuws
or whatever), but there is such a thing as clearly 'wrong Scots'. That
distinction can be built on.

Regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 00:18:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:18:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.FEB.2001.161806.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 18.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

> As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
> here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
> used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
> "gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
> and more. Alasdair Allan, who wrote a Ph.D thesis in Scots a few
> years ago, invented the word "hyperlallanism" as a convenient
> derogatory term for this tendency. Ian James Parsley might care to
> adopt it in the form "hyperullanism".

I haven't had anything to add to the "Language survival"
debate, since everything I might be able to say is already
being so well said.

However, to start a new thread on the above definition from
Colin, isn't "hyperlallanism" just a language-specific version
of "hypercorrection"? Admittedly the hypercorrection is going
in the opposite direction from usual (English to bad Scots
rather than Scots to bad English), but this should make no
difference if we can assume equal status for the languages.
I suppose the reason why Alisdair Allan puts forward a new
term is that we can't assume equal status - Scots in most
real-life or even literary situations doesn't have as high
a status as English, so it's difficult to equate overdone
Scots with an attempt at correction.

I once came across a very useful (and longstanding) definition
in a dictionary of literary terms. It was "inkhorn term",
meaning a word or phrase which could only have come from a
writer's inkhorn rather than anybody's mouth. I think this is
the perfect term for another common class of ill-advised
"Lallanisms" - words such as "mucklegate", "faurspaeker",
"atomstour" &c.

This would be distinguished from a "neologism" which is a word
which although it may be new, has a meaning so obvious and
natural that it could easily have arisen in conversation
between native speakers - the main point being that the writer
isn't attempting language architecture but just found a
temporary use for an unusual lexical construction which he
wouldn't expect to enter the language unless a lot of people
happen to find it memorable.

I would distinguish this again from a "coinage", which would
be a word which someone writing on a technical subject might
invent to make a necessary distinction in his own area of
expertise. Here there's no pretention of using "real words"
and the meaning intended is explained by the writer. It only
enters the language if enough people find it useful.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Críostóir wrote:

> I would like to know how far the dominant language in
> a Lowland situation affects the languages we discuss
> here: for example, has there ever been a specifically
> Frisian colour spectrum that has now been imbalanced
> toward Dutch? Or are the two languages too close
> genetically to engender different colour schemes?

I doubt there are many such perceptual differences where the dominant and
dominated languages belong to the same language subbranches and are
relatively closely related, which seems to be the majority in our Lowlandic
circle: English vs Scots, Dutch vs Frisian, Dutch vs Zeelandic (incl.
Western Flemish), Dutch vs Low Saxon, German vs Low Saxon (Low German),
German vs Frisian, English vs Afrikaans, American Standard English vs
Appalachian, Black English, Hawai'ian Creole, etc.  (Did I forget any?)
Things like color spectrum tend not to vary a great deal within the same
branch or subbranch, and what may have varied in the past has most probably
been unified long ago under continual cultural contacts, bilingualism and
dominant-language education.

This is not to say that pressures and influences from the dominant
languages are any weaker in these instances.  On the contrary, I assume
they are stronger on the whole, because the close genealogical
relationships tend to blur the dividing line between the dominant and
dominated languages in the mind of the average speaker.  The absence of
standards for the dominated language helps to blur the dividing line even
further.

In the case of Low Saxon/Low German in Northern Germany, there are massive
German influences that have accumulated over time and are increasing with
declining levels of language proficiency.  This has been the case
especially with lexicon and syntax.  For instance, most dialects now have
(German _Geist_ =) _Geist_ [gaIst] instead of native _Geest_ [gEIst]
'spirit', (German _Krieg_ =) _Krieg_ [kri:C] instead of native _Oorloog_
['?oU3loUx] 'war', (German _Jude_ =) _Juud_ [ju:.d] instead of native
_Jööd'_ [j9.I(d)] 'Jew', (German _Zigeuner_ =) _Zigeuner_ [(t)si'go.In3]
instead of native _Tater_ ['tQ:t3] 'Gypsy', and (German _Kirsche_ =)
_Kirsch_ vs native _Kars(beer)_ ['k`a(:)s(be:3)] 'cherry'.  (This lexical
decline is particularly noticeable in the areas of the zoological and
botanical inventories.)  In some instances, a German cognate is assigned
semantic specialization; e.g., (German _fein_ >) _fein_ [fa.In] 'fine' =
'refined', 'nice', vs native _fien_ [fi:n] 'fine' = 'thin', 'delicate'.
Native words that have German cognates have stronger survival chances than
and will eventually replace native words that have no (apparent) German
cognates; e.g., (German _raten_ =) _raden_ ['rQ:d=n] vs _gissen_ ['gIs=n]
'to guess', and (German _Schote_ =) _Schoot_ [So:t] vs _Paal_ ~ _Pahl_
[p`Q:l] 'pod'.  Loaning from German is particularly strong in cases of
abstract nouns; e.g., many of those nouns that have the suffixes _-heit_ or
_-keit_ in German, e.g., (German _Krankheit_ =) _Krankheit_ ['krã.nkhaIt]
vs native _Süük_ [zy:k] or _Süükdoom_ ['zy:kdo.Um] 'illness', 'disease',
and (German _Kleinigkeit_ =) _Klenigkeit_ ['klEInICkaIt] vs _Kleikraam_
['kla.IkrQ:m] ~ _Klacks_ [klaks] ~ _Pittjepattje_ ['p`Itje,patje] ~
_Spier(ken)_ [spi:3(k=N)] ~ _Scheet_ [Se:t] 'trifle'.  Many, if not most,
German loans are disguised in that they are "calques," i.e., translated
loanwords.  Naturally, this is particularly noticeable in the naming of
more recent innovations and German institutions; e.g., (German
_Wartezimmer_ =) _Tööfruum_ ['t`9Ifru:m] 'waiting room', (German _Kaufhaus_
=) _Koophuus_ ['k`oUphu:s] 'department store', or as semi-calques; e.g.,
(German _Genossenschaft_ =) _Genossenschupp_ [ge'nOs=nSUp] '(socialist)
cooperative' vs native-based _Maatschupp(ie)_ ['mQ:tSUp] (~ [mQ:tSu'pi:]) ~
_Maatschapp(ie)_ ['mQ:tSap] (~ [mQ:tSa'pi:]) '(capitalist) cooperative'
(cf. Dutch _maatschappij_).

Those of us who have been around for a few decades also notice rapidly
increasing German phonological influences, typically uvular [R] instead of
native apical [r] for /r/; [St...], [Sp...], [Sm...] and [Sn...] in
dialects in which native pronunciation is [st...], [sp...], [sm...] and
[sn...] respectively; monophthongization of diphthongs (no doubt enhanced
by unsuitable German-based orthographic devices), lack of _Schleifton_
("dragging tone," i.e., vocalic superlength and non-application of final
devoicing), e.g., _mööd(')_ [mø:t] instead of native [m9.I(d)] 'sleepy',
'tired'; and denasalization and shortening of vowels before nasals (e.g.,
[mOIn] < [mÕ.I~n] _Moin!_ 'Hi!', [?an=n StRant fUn=n 'blaNkhans] < [?ã.n:
strã.nt fU~.n: 'blã.Nkhã.ns] _an'n Strand vun'n Blankhans_ 'at the North
Sea beach/shore' ("at the beach of the White John").

Colin wrote:

> As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
> here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
> used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
> "gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
> and more.

I do not necessarily condone such artificial lexical separatism, but I
wonder if it is not to be expected, especially where the dominant and the
dominated languages are so closely related and planners and writers
therefore have the need (consciously or subconsciously) for making the
dominated language different, at least to choose a less similar lexical
item where there is a choice.  I see the same happening in Low Saxon (Low
German) of Germany, especially in non-traditional literature, predominantly
in modern poetry.  Some writers, including myself, occasionally mix
dialects by choosing now rare words or expressions from other dialects
because they sound better in some contexts.  In other words, there are such
lexical choices as artistic devices, but some measure of "activism"
(separatism and purism) may play a role at least subconsciously.  For
instance, I usually say _Krieg_ for 'war', but in one piece I used the word
_oorloogsmööd'_ instead of _kriegsmööd'_ for 'war-weary', simply because I
like the sound of the former better in that instance.  Similarly, Waltrud
Bruhn from Schleswig-Holstein, probably the champion of modern Low Saxon
poetry in Germany, freely alternates between equivalent words from
different dialects.  She, too, usually uses the word _Krieg_ for 'war', but
then she uses only _Oorloog_ in an entire poem ("Vun'n Oorloog" (About
War), which is specifically about war), and I think this, too, is for
predominantly artistic style.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 18:53:56 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:53:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.105356.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 19.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 =======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]

Criostoir asked:

> I would like to know how far the dominant language in
> a Lowland situation affects the languages we discuss
> here: for example, has there ever been a specifically
> Frisian colour spectrum that has now been imbalanced
> toward Dutch? Or are the two languages too close
> genetically to engender different colour schemes?

As Ron already mentioned, just like for the other Lowland languages, the
Zeelandic colour spectrum is basically the same as the Standard
Dutch/German/English one. They way colours of cattle and horses are
described, are very different though. This might be a relic of an older
colour scheme which was used more generally than just for cattle/horses
once.

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Ron,

You wrote:

> I do not necessarily condone such artificial lexical
> separatism, but I wonder if it is not to be
> expected, especially where the dominant and the
> dominated languages are so closely related and
> planners and writers therefore have the need
> (consciously or subconsciously) for making the
> dominated language different, at least to choose a
> less similar lexical item where there is a choice.
> I see the same happening in Low Saxon (Low German)
> of Germany, especially in non-traditional
> literature, predominantly in modern poetry.  Some
> writers, including myself, occasionally mix dialects
> by choosing now rare words or expressions from other

> dialects because they sound better in some
> contexts.  In other words, there are
> such lexical choices as artistic devices, but some
> measure of "activism" (separatism and purism) may
> play a role at least subconsciously.

Well, I think again this depends. There is undoubtedly
the tendency, probably even a conscious one, to want
to make the 'dominated language' *seem* different from
the dominant one. However, you are doing so as a
linguist, fully aware of what you are doing, what you
are trying to achieve, and how you can best achieve
it. Ultimately I am sure you will agree that the aim
of the game is *communication* in the lesser-used
language, and 'maximally differentiating' from the
dominant tongue comes secondary to that.

It really depends on the individual case. My point is
(as McClure inter alia points out) that words that
appear English are as much a part of Scots as those
that aren't. On average you would expect over 90% of
words in a Scots text to have an immediately
recognizable English cognate - if that is *not* the
case, then the chances are the text isn't genuine
Scots. 'Gar' has an utterly different meaning from
'make' (as in 'machen')

Colin gives some very useful examples. 'Norie', for
example, simply doesn't mean 'idea' - it means more
'whim', which is a different thing. There is a
difference between 'speir' and 'ask' in Scots, and
between 'write' and 'screive/scrieve' - to ignore that
difference is to assign to 'screive' a direct English
equivalent ('write'), and this goes back to what I was
saying earlier, where you actually lose the essence of
the language. 'Gar' has an utterly different meaning
from 'make' (as in 'create' or 'do'), and some people
use 'rax' to mean 'reach' as in 'reach a place' -
which is worrying because Scots already has a
perfectly good alternative (along the lines of 'win
tae'), and would be lost if the previous false usage
is maintained.

Of course, some of these new meanings do become
generally accepted, probably most notably 'leet'. That
doesn't make it right necessarily, but languages do
develop (I mean, what idiot inserted the <b> in 'debt'
or assigned the meaning of 'not pay attention to' to
'ignore'?!!)

In Ireland the case is far more serious still. Texts
produced not only contain inaccuracies, but are often
utterly incomprehensible (remember: 'language is about
communication'). There are often blatantly wrong
translations - 'Ministrie' (Ministry) for
'Department', 'fowkgates' (customs) for 'culture',
worst of all perhaps 'Ulster' (Ulster; i.e. the
province based on the ancient kingdom) for 'Northern
Ireland'. These are compounded by a pile of made-up
words, as opposed to actual proper neologisms (or
attempts at them). In this regard I am very grateful
to Sandy for explaining the clear-cut distinction. The
result in Ulster has been the alienation of native
speakers, who simply do not recognize their own speech
in texts which are supposed to represent it!

Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

I generally agree with you.

However, I would like to add that I feel that people ought not be chided
for using what they feel is the native choice wherever there is a choice,
as long as they are still understood, and as long as we do not speak about
outright, organized engineering attempts.  This applies particularly to
relatively older speakers -- and they need not be linguists, need only have
conscious -- who have witnessed a clear proficiency decline within their
own lifetimes.  For instance, this would apply in the case of the Celtic
color spectrum.  Why should someone who grew up with the original spectrum
adopt the English based spectrum if he/she knows "better" and considers the
new spectrum a symptom of declining proficiency?  Another example is names
of certain ethnicities and countries in Low Saxon (Low German) of Germany.
The fact that many speakers use the German names is due to proficiency
decline combined with seeing the outside world through national German
eyes, yet the original names tend to be understood if heard/read, and they
are preserved in some dialects.  I had already given _Jööd'_ > _Juud_ 'Jew'
and _Tater_ > _Zigeuner_ 'Rom', 'Gypsy'.  I might add _Greek_ [gre:k] >
_Griech(e)_ ['gri:C(e)] 'Greek (person)', _Grekenland_ ['gre:k=Nla.nt] >
_Griechenland_ ['gri:C=nla.nt] 'Greece', _Törk_ [t`9.3k] > _Türk(e)_
[tY3k(e)] 'Turk', _Törkie_ ['t`9.3'ki:] > _Türkei_ [t`9.3'ka.I] 'Turkey'.

We are talking about choices, most of them acceptable and understandable to
most speakers.  While I do not agree with concerted efforts to engineer a
standard language without a predominance of genuine speakers' input, I also
do not agree with condemning people's choices, especially where they
themselves perceive alternative choices as being incorrect, foreign and a
sign of insufficient proficiency.  The "truth" must lie somewhere in
between.  Why should I say _Türk(e)_ when _Törk_ feels right and original
to me?  Just because more and more people say _Türk(e)_?  People usually
use German words because they do not know the Low Saxon equivalents.  They
would probably use the native words if they knew them.  They look to
proficient speakers and writers for the education schools are not offering
them.  So should these "models" use the native words, or should they bow to
declining proficiency in others and use the German equivalents?  Would the
latter choice not amount to speeding up language proficiency decline and
language death?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 18:59:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:59:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.105954.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 19.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: Multi-linguistic environments

For the moment I'm supervising (subcontracted from one of the major 5
auditing offices) an ERP (logistics software) implementation at an
important federal governmental institution downtown Brussels. Never ask
me wether I discussed in French or in Dutch with person ABC: In most
case I absolutely do not remember. We occasionally are switching
language during discussions, without one is aware of the switch.

Semantics is a major issue though: in this kingdom.
Multi-cultural/multi-regional agreements are balanced on thin ropes
above large falls. An issue of today was how to formulate delivery terms
or payment credits of two weeks in screens where people have to enter a
number of days in a text box:
- French speaking people say "dans quinze" jours and enter 15 in the
"d/j" text box.
- Dutch speaking people say "binnen veertien dagen" and enter 14 in the
"d/j" text box.

Issues like this are of an extreme sensitivity, and I unfortunately
cannot give more details of the whereabouts. Somebody may blow it up to
an issue, as: "Walloon suppliers get one more day on payment terms as
Flemish suppliers" and one or another polical fellow certainly will use
it at the proper time for breaking the career of his fellow-friend.

Regards,
Roger
www.euro-support.be

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 22:42:27 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:42:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.144227.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 19.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Multi-linguistic environments

Roger Thijs heeft geschreven:

> An issue of today was how to formulate delivery terms
> or payment credits of two weeks in screens where people have
> to enter a number of days in a text box:
> - French speaking people say "dans quinze" jours and enter 15
> in the "d/j" text box.
> - Dutch speaking people say "binnen veertien dagen" and enter
> 14 in the "d/j" text box.

One convenient way around an impasse like that would be to have
people write the actual date 14 days or 10 business days etc.
from the current one.

If the form is electronic, the computer could add a uniform
number of days, regardless of language (or user's poor math);
that would also confirm the precise date for the user, e.g. <15.
april>.  Someone would still have to decide definitively how to
define "two weeks", but there would then be one standard at
least.

Stefan

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 23:37:15 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:37:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.153715.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 19.FEB.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 =======================================================================
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]

At 13:32 18/02/01 -0800, Criostoir O Ciardha wrote:

>Ian describes "Learner's Irish" and it seems to me he
>is in fact describing the Irish of the SRG (a minority
>variety of Irish of Belfast with a few hundred
>speakers), which is massively contaminated by a heavy
>English/Ulster-Scots substrate, to the point that the
>syntax of the language is severely affected and
>divergent from other varieties of Irish.

Would it perhaps be more accurate to classify this language
as an Irish-based creole, rather than as a variety of Irish?

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

At 16:18 18/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:
>However, to start a new thread on the above definition from
>Colin, isn't "hyperlallanism" just a language-specific version
>of "hypercorrection"? Admittedly the hypercorrection is going
>in the opposite direction from usual (English to bad Scots
>rather than Scots to bad English), but this should make no
>difference if we can assume equal status for the languages.
>I suppose the reason why Alisdair Allan puts forward a new
>term is that we can't assume equal status - Scots in most
>real-life or even literary situations doesn't have as high
>a status as English, so it's difficult to equate overdone
>Scots with an attempt at correction.

I think the reason is more likely to be for the sake of greater
precision. "Hypercorrection" could mean many things, but
"hyperlallanism" means something very specific.

>I once came across a very useful (and longstanding) definition
>in a dictionary of literary terms. It was "inkhorn term",
>meaning a word or phrase which could only have come from a
>writer's inkhorn rather than anybody's mouth. I think this is
>the perfect term for another common class of ill-advised
>"Lallanisms" - words such as "mucklegate", "faurspaeker",
>"atomstour" &c.

I don't necessarily agree that these terms are ill-advised, but
I do believe (now) that the decision as to whether this is the
right way for Scots to develop, is one that can only be taken by
the Scots-speaking community at large rather than by a
relatively small number of activists. In my view, the main aim for
activists at present ought to be to promote the status of Scots at
its current stage of development.

R.F. Hahn wrote:
>I do not necessarily condone such artificial lexical separatism, but I
>wonder if it is not to be expected, especially where the dominant and the
>dominated languages are so closely related and planners and writers
>therefore have the need (consciously or subconsciously) for making the
>dominated language different, at least to choose a less similar lexical
>item where there is a choice.

I have no objection to this either, but with Scots there is a tendency
on the part of some to use a less similar lexical item even when there
isn't a real choice, because the less similar item is actually wrong.
For example "norie", which people use to mean "idea", actually means
a false or fanciful idea, and anyone who cares to look at the dictionary
can check this. "Screive", which people use to mean "write", actually
means (more or less) "scribble". I could give a good number of others.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]

Ron wrote:

<snip>
> I hope this will help shed some more light on the possibility of language

> revival.

The case with Hebrew, I assume, is perhaps sigular by its nature.
There must have been /is a great desire in the population to do this. I A'm

surprised that is has been so successful. I assume there are social
networks
of the various immigrant groups where the use of Hebrew could easily be
avoided for everyday purposes, much as it is in some ethnic communities in
the UK.

Does any one know about the situation it Catalonie vis a vis the revival of

Catalonian. I have often seen this used an an example of what could be
possible in Scotland in view of Scots. How similar/disimilar are Castillian

and Catalans?

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Sandy Fleming wrote:
> Subject: "Language survival"

> However, to start a new thread on the above definition from
> Colin, isn't "hyperlallanism" just a language-specific version
> of "hypercorrection"? Admittedly the hypercorrection is going
> in the opposite direction from usual (English to bad Scots
> rather than Scots to bad English), but this should make no
> difference if we can assume equal status for the languages.
> I suppose the reason why Alisdair Allan puts forward a new
> term is that we can't assume equal status - Scots in most
> real-life or even literary situations doesn't have as high
> a status as English, so it's difficult to equate overdone
> Scots with an attempt at correction.

Is 'hyperlallanism' hypercorrection or a deliberate attemp to artificially
try and increase the diference between Scots and English? I make a
difference here between 'creative writing' an what are supposed to be
'official' publications.
Creative writers can do what they want. That is their prerogative. I would
assume the intention of 'official publications' is to inform the public. If

the public these writings are aimed at can't understand what's written then

they must be considered dismal failures. Wether this is a result of an
idiosyncratic orthography or a preponderance of indeciperable neologisms.

The only Scots neologisms I use regularly are to do with the medium we are
using now. wabsteid (website), wittinscurn (newsgroup), straivaig (surf)
airtin or cleik (link) and sneck (click) most of these should be
recognisable in a web context. Any thoughts?

Ron wrote:


> This is not to say that pressures and influences from the dominant
> languages are any weaker in these instances.  On the contrary, I assume
> they are stronger on the whole, because the close genealogical
> relationships tend to blur the dividing line between the dominant and
> dominated languages in the mind of the average speaker.  The absence of
> standards for the dominated language helps to blur the dividing line even

> further.

It's not neccessarily the absence of 'a' standard but lack of knowledge of
which linguistic features are those of the dominant and dominated language.

My experiance at school was, when I used Scots grammar forms I was simply
told it was wrong. No explanation of 'interference'. The implication being
my family/community were also wrong etc. etc.

> In the case of Low Saxon/Low German in Northern Germany, there are
massive
> German influences that have accumulated over time and are increasing with

> declining levels of language proficiency.  This has been the case
> especially with lexicon and syntax.  .... (This lexical
> decline is particularly noticeable in the areas of the zoological and
> botanical inventories.)

The same in Scots. The assumption being for many is that these terms are
not
encountered everyday any anybody needing to learn such terminology resorts
to books in the dominant langage (for want of any in the dominated
language)

> Those of us who have been around for a few decades also notice rapidly
> increasing German phonological influences

Equally true in Scotland.(English of course)

> Colin wrote:
>
> > As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
> > here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
> > used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
> > "gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
> > and more.
>
Some writers, including myself, occasionally mix
> dialects by choosing now rare words or expressions from other dialects
> because they sound better in some contexts.  In other words, there are
such
> lexical choices as artistic devices, but some measure of "activism"
> (separatism and purism) may play a role at least subconsciously.

In creative writing that's OK. But would it work well in 'official'
publication aimed at encouraging use of a dominated language?

To me what makes something Scots is the Scots grammar features and certain
vocabulary. Not a slavish one to one translation, often full of words out
of
context or alien looking neologisms. I 've read stuff more or less written
with a standard English orthography but it was blatantly obvious it was
Scots and not bad English.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Language survival
>
> circle: English vs Scots, Dutch vs Frisian, Dutch vs Zeelandic (incl.
> Western Flemish), Dutch vs Low Saxon, German vs Low Saxon (Low German),
> German vs Frisian, English vs Afrikaans, American Standard English vs
> Appalachian, Black English, Hawai'ian Creole, etc.  (Did I forget any?)
> Things like color spectrum tend not to vary a great deal within the same
> branch or subbranch, and what may have varied in the past has
> most probably
> been unified long ago under continual cultural contacts, bilingualism and

> dominant-language education.

There are a few colour-spectrum differences between Scots
and English. A perfect example of how the scheme of the
dominant language can be imposed on the minority language
can be seen in the Scots "blae". To me, this is a dull
greyish-blue, as in the colour of bilberries (Scots
"blaeberries", of course) or bruises and suchlike. Many
modern Scots speakers simply don't use the word, whereas
many Scots or "Scots" writers use it for "blue". Either
way the spectrum ends up matching that of English and the
problem is that, as Ian says, the expression of the
language is lost.

Another colour-word distinction made in Scots, though not
related to the actual colour spectrum, is that between
"black" and "bleck". My interpretation of this is that
"black" is the adjectival form, "bleck" is used in other
cases. For example, "bleck" will be used as a verb, as in
"bleckenin" (blackening for shoes &c) from the verb form
"tae bleck" meaning "to blacken". "Bleck" is also
invariably used in Scots to mean a black person. These
distinctions are still so firmly entrenched in
contemporary Scots that I'd be surprised to find anybody
confusing them.

There are also some figurative uses of colour in Scots
that don't occur in English as far as I know (idiomatic
rather than semantic):

Scots             English

black             extreme
grey              sombre, sad
blae              dark

eg:

Scots "black affrontit", English "extremely embarrassed".

Scots "blae glower", English "black looks"

Scots, from "Wee Willie Winkie": "The cat's singin grey thrums tae the
sleepin hen".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Colin wrote:

> I have no objection to this either, but with Scots there is a tendency
> on the part of some to use a less similar lexical item even when there
> isn't a real choice, because the less similar item is actually wrong.
> For example "norie", which people use to mean "idea", actually means
> a false or fanciful idea, and anyone who cares to look at the dictionary
> can check this. "Screive", which people use to mean "write", actually
> means (more or less) "scribble". I could give a good number of others.

I occasionally encounter this sort of thing in Low Saxon (Low German) of
Germany also.  One example is the expression of the idea 'opinion'.  Most
people say _Menen_ [mEIn:] in every context, which I suspect to have been
reinforced by German _Meinung_.  I have come across a couple of writers who
say _Verscheel_ [f3'Se:l] in every context, a word that does not seem to
have a German cognate (at least not a generally apparent one).  I consider
either case to be symptomatic of a proficiency decline: a tendency toward
translating German and having only one choice like in German, in the second
case choosing a less similar word.  _Verscheel_ originally had (and
hopefully still has in most inventories) the specific meaning
'contrary/diverging opinion', whereas _Menen_ is more general and neutral.
Thus, if someone expresses their opinion and you concur it seems wrong to
say something like _Dat is ook mien Verscheel_ 'That's my opinion too',
unless you want to stress that you, like the other person, has an opinion
that differs from the generally held opinion.  It seems to me that knowing
when to say _Menen_ and when to use _Verscheel_ distinguishes speakers that
can use the language without a side glance at German.

Andy wrote:

> The case with Hebrew, I assume, is perhaps sigular by its nature.
> There must have been /is a great desire in the population to do this. I
A'm
> surprised that is has been so successful.

You are not alone there.  I have a feeling that its success lies in great
part in a strong nationalistic (Zionist) base.

> I assume there are social networks
> of the various immigrant groups where the use of Hebrew could easily be
> avoided for everyday purposes, much as it is in some ethnic communities
in
> the UK.

Of course.  You will find numerous immigrant language communities and
networks, and there are printed and electronic media in the main immigrant
languages (Yiddish, Polish, Russian, German, French, English, Spanish,
etc.).  However, with few exceptions (e.g., the closed, ultra-orthodox
Naturei Charta community that clings to Yiddish only, and some
language-specific kibbutzim) people cannot avoid rubbing shoulders with
people of different linguistic backgrounds in everyday life, and in most
instances Hebrew is the lingua franca; thus, there is an absolute
requirement to have at least some Hebrew proficiency.  The three official
languages of Israel are Hebrew, English and Arabic, but Hebrew
predominates.  Pressure from Hebrew is great, and some endangered languages
that initially found a refuge in Israel (e.g., Judeo-Aramaic [Semitic],
Judeo-Bukharan [Iranic], and Karaim [Turkic]) are therefore doomed.  The
success story of  Hebrew from a book language to a power language is indeed
remarkable and may even surpass the expectations of Theodor Herzl.
Whatever the key to its success may be, this case does show that a language
*can* be revived.

Sandy wrote:

> Another colour-word distinction made in Scots, though not
> related to the actual colour spectrum, is that between
> "black" and "bleck".

Some of you may be interested to know that in many Low Saxon dialects
_Black_ means 'ink'.  (Old High German had _blah_.  I can't think of a
Modern German descendant other than the adjective _blakig_ 'sooty'.)  A Low
Saxon alternative for 'ink' is _Dint_ (cf., German _Tinte_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 16:12:45 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:12:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
 20.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.081245.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Sandy Fleming wrote:

> "blae": To me, this is a dull
> greyish-blue, as in the colour of bilberries (Scots
> "blaeberries", of course) or bruises and suchlike.

In Zeeuws, we have 'blaeuw' for any colour stretching from blue to grey.
It's used less and less in every day speech and replaced bij Dutch 'blauw'
and 'grijs', except when describing the colour of a grey horse. In Dutch
such a horse is called 'schimmel' and the colour is referred to as 'grijs'.
In Zeeuws, we call this kind of horse a 'blaeuwen'.
As opposed to the 'vivid' grey described as 'blaeuw', all dull, darkish,
less explicit colours (greyish, brownish...) are described as 'graeuw'. In
Dutch 'grauw' isn't used as a name for a colour, it's strictly used as an
adjective, dull, grey, plain.

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Color terms

Dear Lowlanders,

Marco wrote:

> In Dutch
> such a horse is called 'schimmel' and the colour is referred to as > 'grijs'.

Same thing in Low Saxon.

Here are some of the main colors in the North Saxon dialects of Low Saxon (Low
German) of Germany:

witt [vIt]: white (> pale, clean)

blau [bla.U], blaag ~ blaach [blQ:x]: blue (> drunk)

violett [fio'lEt], vigelett [fige'lEt], violenblau [fi'o:ln,bla.U]:
     violet, bluish purple (Eastern Friesland _zangen_ ['tsa.N:])

rood, root [ro:t] ~ [roUt]: red (> blushed)

purpur(rood) ['p`u3pu3(ro:t)]: (reddish) purple

geel [ge:l]: yellow (> blond, golden, ugly, false; _geel snacken_ 'to
     speak Germanized Low Saxon', 'to speak German', 'to talk in an
     uppety/affected way')

gröön [gr9.In], greun [grO.In]: green (> unripe, inexperienced,
     immature, unprocessed; e.g. _Aal gröön_ 'fresh (vs smoked)
     eel', _grönen Heern_ 'fresh (vs smoked or pickled) herring')

gries [gri:s], grau [gra.U], graag [grQ:x]: gray (> pale, pallid,
     ashen, clever, cunning; e.g., _He is 'n Griesen_ 'He's a
     devious one')

swart [sva:t], swatt [swat]: black (> dark)

Let's take the color term discussion out of "Language survival" and give it
its own subject thread.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 15:32:38 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:32:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.073238.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Teterevenkow Andrej [teterev at ssu.samara.ru]
Subject:

Dear Lowlanders,

Ron Hahn wrote:

>Note that Russian has
>_pavlin_ rather than just *_pav_. Something strange and interesting is
>going on here. Can any of you help?

Stefan Israel wrote:

>Could the -uun/luun (and maybe the Russian -lin) be a
>pseudofrench ending, tacked on to make a foreign word look
>"properly foreign"? I had that gut reaction, but I haven't
>thought of any good basis to pin that on.

"The Historico-etymological Dictionary of Modern Russian" by P.Ya. Tchernykch
1999 gives the following explanation of Russian 'pavlin' (first mentioned in
Russian dictionaries 1704):

It is unlikely to have any relation to French 'pavillon' (contrary to the
opinion of Russisches Etymologisches Woerterbuch von Max Vasmer). It has
rather been derived from Latin ''pavoninus' - "many colored; of the peacock"
(showing a dissimilation of n:n>l:n). (1 part, p.615)

The female form 'pava' which seems to have been the originally common form for
both male and female species is supposed to be a common Slavic loan from
Latin.

S privetom,

Andrei Teterevenkov

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the explanation above, Andrei.  It was a pleasure to hear from one
of our Russian subscribers.

For the benefit of more recent subscribers, let me explain that Andrei
responded to my question why the Low Saxon (Low German) word for 'peacock' was
_Pageluun_ [p`Qge'lu:n], specifically what the origin of the _...luun_ part
may be, and if there was any connection with Russian _pavlín_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 16:14:38 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:14:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.081438.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Folk,

A always find these discussions, where they link a
variety of languages, extremely useful.

Andy asks how similar Catalan is to Castilian, with
reference to possible parallels with Lowlands minority
languages. Of course, that depends on how you measure
it and on what variety of Catalan (and, for that
matter, Castilian) you adopt.

Not unlike Scots, Catalan has a long and distinguished
literary tradition and use as the formal language of a
state. However, the modern standard derives from the
work of a chemical engineer and linguist called Fabra
at the beginning of the 20th century. He adopted the
Barcelona dialect as the one to base the standard
grammar and vocabulary on, but ensured that all
spellings were truly reflective of all dialects. He
deliberately adopted words and terms that were
different from Castilian where they were still in use
in some dialects (even if not in Barcelona), or even
where they had a common literary use. However, he
ensured that whatever was written remained within the
bounds of understanding by your average modern
speaker, thus the widespread adoption of his system.
In the 1910s there was a grammar published, but
language planners should note well that a generally
agreed dictionary did not follow until 1932. There
remains some debate over modern technological terms
(and even, I daresay, over whether they are required
at all). Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
language activists - they assure me that Scots is
highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
standardize it!!!

It is *not* true to say that other Spaniards regard or
regarded Catalan as a dialect of 'Spanish' (I have
seen that written by people who really should know
better!). It was in fact *banned* under Franco (and
its use positively discouraged in previous eras after
the unification of Castile and Aragon), which is a
quite different thing - it would be pretty difficult
to *ban* a dialect of your own language! In fact,
contemporary right-wing Spaniards (i.e. those not
living in Catalonia) often refer to Catalan as
'Polaco' (Polish), on the basis that it is no more
comprehensible that an East European language. This is
slightly unfortunate, because the underlying and
genuinely misguided belief is that Catalans speak
Catalan 'just to be different', whereas in fact they
are merely speaking their native tongue! The result,
however, not dissimilarly to Scots and other
languages, was that Catalan became banished to the
countryside (where prohibitive laws were harder to
enforce), and the urban middle-class adopted the
'dominant language' (Castilian).

Certainly as one with adequate Spanish and (probably
quite importantly in this case) reasonable French, I
have no great difficulty understanding the jist of a
Catalan conversation. It is much more reduced than
Spanish (e.g. the past participle of 'estar' is
'estat' rather than 'estado'; final consonant-s
combinations are allowed as in 'amics catalans' vs.
'amigos catalanes'), but less so than French. Arabic
lexical influence is there, but not nearly so marked
as with Castilian.

I think the parallels are there with Lowlands
languages, and I think the key lesson is that we need
to operate on a united front where possible. In 1998
Catalan was afforded 'main language' status within the
education system in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands
(with some exceptions), but *not* in Valencia. This
was because 'Valencian' (which is almost indisputably
actually a southern dialect of Catalan) was considered
separate from 'Catalan', even by many 'Valencian'
activists. The parallels with Lowlands languages
spoken across national, regional or other geographic
boundaries are obvious (although it is true that the
political situation in Valencia is rather different
from in Catalonia).

However, it is extremely difficult to think of an
example among Lowlands tongues with such political
support (Catalans have no difficulty distinguishing
between 'political' and 'cultural' nationalism, so
although the present exceptionally high status of the
language in the education system in Catalonia and the
Balearics is very much the result of moves made by
Jordi Pujol's Catalan nationalists, the two movements
are clearly distinct and people understand this).
Furthermore, as a comparatively wealthy region of
Iberia, Catalonia has received a huge number of
immigrants from the rest of Spain (most notably
Andalusia and Extremadura) with the result that use of
Castilian is constantly being reinforced by the
arrival of native speakers rather than specific
government policy.

Hope that helps
Regards,
------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 19:13:08 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:13:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.111308.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

I get a lot of questions about sources for learning (about) Old and Middle
English.  I always refer people to our specific English resource page
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/english_offline.htm).  If
you know of any other good books, please let me know, and I will add them.

I know that quite a few Lowlanders are interested and versed in Old and Middle
English.  If any of you (singly or in teams) feel inclined and confident,
there is nothing to stop you from translating our welcoming page into these
language varieties.  I know, I know ... Some will find it silly (and it would
require making up a few words), but it might be a "fun" thing for many
readers.

Our web site has been experiencing a bit of a visitation boom lately, and I am
happy to welcome a number of new subscribers.  This is another opportune
moment for posting the pules for posting.  This is mandatory reading for all
but the most experienced contributors.

I encourage lurkers to come forward and contribute.  You need not feel
self-conscious or intimidated as long as you stick to the basic guidelines.

PLEASE DO READ THESE GUIDELINES:

(1) KEEP DISCUSSIONS RELEVANT.  Please remember that we deal with the
"Lowlands" area.  This is not synonymous with "Germanic" but excludes German,
Luxemburgish and the North Germanic languages (Scandinavian, Icelandic and
Faroese).  It is perfectly fine to mention these related languages, and any
other languages and their cultures for that matter, especially wherever there
are parallels or connections that are useful in understanding topics that are
within our main subject area.  However, the focus must remain on the Lowlands
languages and cultures.  It is all right to sidestep within a discussion, as
long as the discussion returns to the original focus.  However, this should
not be seen as an excuse to start a new, extraneous subject line.

(2) KEEP SUBJECTS SEPARATE.  Do not submit a single posting in which more than
one topic is discussed.  ("Topic" equals "subject line".)  This also applies
when you respond to other people's postings.

(3) STICK TO THE SUBJECT TITLE.  If you start an entirely new discussion, you
are welcome to create your own subject title.  I may or may not adopt that
title.  (The more general the title is the better is the chance that I'll
adopt it; otherwise I'll generalize it.)  If you respond or add to previous
postings in an already existing subject line, please use the already existing
title of that discussion threat as your subject heading. For instance, if the
current title is "Language varieties" and you respond to what someone wrote
about vowels in Flemish dialects, don't choose something like "Long o and u in
the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of young Belgians" as your
subject heading; stick to "Language varieties," if you like it or not. This
facilitates sorting submissions at my end.  If I feel that the discussion has
changed or a new discussion has branched off an existing one, it is *my* job
to give it a new title.

(4) EDIT QUOTES.  When you reply to what someone else has written, don't just
hit the reply button and write your reply before or after the quoted text.
EDIT OUT WHATEVER IS NOT ESSENTIAL, most definitely the LL-L masthead and
footer.  (They are going to stay, for good reasons.)  Also, don't do what some
do: they follow this rule nicely until they run out of things to say, and then
they let the rest of the quoted text dangle behind their "signature."

(5) GIVE CREDIT.  Don't forget to say who the writer of the text is to which
you are responding.  (When you hit the reply button your system most likely
credits me or "Lowlands-L," the sender, even if I did not write it.)

(6) IDENTIFY YOURSELF.  Anonymous postings are not permitted and will be
ignored.  Readers must be able to see who wrote a posting.  Many people have
automatic "signatures;" they are great, as long as they are not attached. (No
attachments allowed!)  Otherwise, your name must appear either with your email
address or at the end of your contribution.  It is all right to have your
surname appear in one place and your given name in another place within the
same posting.

(7) DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS.  Attachments (i.e., attached documents or
pictures), including signature attachments, are unacceptable.  The list server
strips most attachments off submissions and would probably remove the rest
during final distribution if I did not remove them already.  Anyway, sending
attachments without prior approval from recipients is a big no-no in
"netiquette."  So, please put everything you wish to convey inside your email
submissions.

By all means, please feel free to submit postings to LL-L, even if you have
never done so before.  If you make a gross mistake, I'll tell you so privately
and will have you resubmit it correctly before anyone else sees it -- which
isn't the end of the world. If the mistake is not so bad, I'll correct it once
or twice in the hope that you will get the hint eventually.

If you have never posted but are considering getting into it, it's a good idea
to watch the "masters," the "old hands" or "veterans" on LL-L, namely those
subscribers who contribute frequently and have been around for a long time (a
handful of them since the very beginning in 1995!) Good luck, and keep us
posted!

Reinhard "Ron" Hahn
Lowlands-L

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 20:24:48 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:24:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.122448.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 08:14 20/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
>remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
>language activists - they assure me that Scots is
>highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
>standardize it!!!

I don't think personal greatness is the issue here - even if such a
person appeared, there would be strong opposition from some parts of
the Scots-language movement. Consider, for example, C. I. Macafee's
piece "Leave the Leid Alane" in the latest edition of Lallans. I
personally was glad to see it refuted, in the same issue, by John
Tait.

Anyone who tried this...

>He adopted the
>Barcelona dialect as the one to base the standard
>grammar and vocabulary on, but ensured that all
>spellings were truly reflective of all dialects. He
>deliberately adopted words and terms that were
>different from Castilian where they were still in use
>in some dialects (even if not in Barcelona), or even
>where they had a common literary use.

or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
(misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

Ron,

You wrote:

> However, I would like to add that I feel that people ought not be
chided
> for using what they feel is the native choice wherever there is a
choice,
> as long as they are still understood, and as long as we do not speak
about
> outright, organized engineering attempts.

Well this is undoubtedly true. I would in fact encourage the native
choice where possible, but only on the proviso that it is used
'properly'.

Again, the obvious example with Scots is 'speir'. 'Speir' has actually
died out in Ulster, but because it does appear in Ulster-Scots poetry
and it is still current in other dialects of Scots, I have no problem
with attempts at rekindling it here. I *do* have a problem, however,
when it is rekindled and used as a direct equivalent to the English
'ask'. Again, we're talking about spectrums. English has 'consult,
request, ask and inquire', Scots has 'speir, pree and ask' - this is
far from a perfect example, but my point is that there is no direct
one-to-one correspondence. Any attempt to apply one goes against
native usage and is actually a surrender to the dominant language,
whose semantic system the dominated language is now adopting.

This is the crux of the issue. Too few people here understand that if
you adopt English semantic boundaries in Scots, then you are thinking
in English, and you might as well use English. Too few are aware than
consistent one-to-one correspondences are rare. What is 'give' is
Scots? 'Gie'? How about 'Give me the salt'? 'See us the saut owre'.
Again, even the simplest of words lacks a one-to-one correspondence.

Another example might be 'ettle', which has now taken on a number of
extra meanings in Ulster texts. However, that is maybe not so serious
because there has been no loss, in this case, of an idiomatic
distinction.

So yes, native speakers of course do not have to be linguists. But
really people engaged in rekindling obsolete and obsolescent words
*do* have to be aware of their idiomatic and grammatical usage
(whether in another dialect or another era), as well as taking account
of what native speakers feel about them.

Best regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

Thanks.  You make some interesting points (above), and I agree in general.

Of course, if there is to be any language planning, such as standardization,
it ought to be under the guidance of people with some linguistics background
as well as high degrees of proficiency, at least with extensive consultation
of genuine native speakers.  Only that way can improper choices be avoided.

You wrote:

> Too few are aware than
> consistent one-to-one correspondences are rare. What is 'give' is
> Scots? 'Gie'? How about 'Give me the salt'? 'See us the saut owre'.
> Again, even the simplest of words lacks a one-to-one correspondence.

There are numerous such examples in the case of Low Saxon (Low German) vs
German too.

If you say, _Geev mi (maal) dat Sult_ (= German _Gib mir (mal) das Salz_) it
would be all right if the request came for instance from someone cooking;
he/she wants someone to fetch the salt.  Similarly, _Reck mi (maal) dat Sult_
(= German _Reich mir (mal) das Salz_) would assume passing the Salt across
some barrier or distance.  It is all right to render 'Pass me the salt' (said
at the table) as _Gib mir (mal bitte) das Salz_ or _Reich mir (mal bitte) das
Salz_ in German.  The authentic Low Saxon expression in this context would be
_Do mi maal dat Sult_ ("Do me once the salt"), and the literal German
translation *_Tu mir mal das Salz_ would be incorrect.

Similarly, I have heard and read 'Take a seat' rendered as _Sett di daal_
("Set yourself down") or even _Set di hen_ (= German _Setz dich hin_).  _Sett
di daal_ is all right, but it is rather general and not quite idiomatically
correct for '(Walk across the room and) Take a seat'.  You might say _Sett di
daal_ to someone who is already standing next to the seat, for instance a
pupil who keeps standing up.  In offering someone a seat it is proper to say,
_Gah(t) sitten_ ("Go to sit") or, under German influence the deferential form
_Gaht Se sitten_.

What is needed in textbooks is a good assortment of such phrases to illustrate
proper idiomatic usage and to drive home the point that word-for-word
translations from German are frequently inappropriate and incorrect, are
hallmarks of what is known as "Patentplatt" (Low Saxon made up on the basis of
German).  Emphasizing this point seems particularly important where people's
minds are still haunted by the beliefs that Scots is a form of English, Low
Saxon (Low German) is a form of German, and dialects of the same language have
word-for-word correspondence.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 20:41:01 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:41:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.124101.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

> From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Multi-linguistic environments
> Roger Thijs heeft geschreven:
> > An issue of today was how to formulate delivery terms
> > or payment credits of two weeks in screens where people have
> > to enter a number of days in a text box:
> If the form is electronic, the computer could add a uniform
> number of days, regardless of language (or user's poor math);
> that would also confirm the precise date for the user, e.g. <15.
> april>.  Someone would still have to decide definitively how to
> define "two weeks", but there would then be one standard at
> least.

Thanks Stefan,
what we basically are doing, for critical spots, is just forseeing "list
boxes" for having people to select options, with a clear rulesetting
behind each element of the selection list.
Though customizing of standard packages is not obvious when dealing with
large (governmental) organizations, since
- budgets are strictly linked to tender books
add to that
- the risks of incompatibility of customized parts with furture releases
of the basic package
and typical, for govenmental applications in this kingdom of Belgium:
one has to foresee guis (user fronts) in 4 versions:
- Dutch for the North
- French for the South
- bilingual Dutch/French for Brussels
- German for the East.
Adding more features, as e.g. list boxes for each of the languages,
implies more "objects" to mantain, and to controll with future software
releases.

It's curious that powerpoint presentations reporting the progress of the
implementation are in Belgian English most of the time.

Back to code switching:
I'm trying to follow-up what (uncounsciously) triggers Dutch-French code
switching during meetings:
- 1th rule: when somebody needs to be convinced, one switches to his
language (the seller chooses the language of the buyer)
- 2d rule (subordinated to the second rule): when one doesn't have
directly in mind the translation of a key term or expression in the
language one is speaking, one switches to the other language for a
while.

What surprises me: the "old politeness" is playing a very minor role. In
the past, when just one of the participants was speaking French-only,
the whole conversation was held in French. Actually, I have the
impression hardly anybody has empathy for those who only master one
language, and the old adagio "Et... pour les Flamands "la même chose""
(replacing a translation), is more and more frequently reversed against
monolingual Walloons, as to my perception in Brussels.

250 Years of French-speaking by the dominant class in Brussels (from the
beginning strongly pushed by the Austrians in the 18th century) turned
the population of the town, and 18 suburbs, gradually to become French
speaking for 85-90%. My perception is that nowadays Dutch is strongly
present downtown during business hours. If this will trigger a switch
back to the linguistic past for the inhabitants, I dare not say. The
Belgian population strongly moved to the outskirts and there is a
significant Maghreb population downtown. It's hard to say what
linguistic evolution this population will have in the future.

(English colonies are strongly fixed at the East of Brussels, in the
area around Tervuren; Swedish immigrants are foming a strong colony in
Waterloo, South of Brussels.
Last Sunday I toured on the flee marked in Mons: I observed  a very
strong American presence on the market: quite a lot of Americans live
around the NATO-SHAPE military basis in Casteau-Mons, about 35 miles
South of Brussels)

Btw: 3-language code switching Dutch-French-English is not exceptional
over here. That doesn't imply that the English spoken is upper-class
Oxford English. I think fluent code-switching requires a restricted
vocabulary. I remember participating at a "Managerial analytices"
training, for a complete week, in Cambridge. The course started with an
explanation of the meaning of the word "event", a richely colored
semantical analysis, taking about 2 hours. Such exposés are not suitable
for code switching every 30 seconds..

Regards,
Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 15:57:20 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:57:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.075720.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Ron hefft schreven:

> I get a lot of questions about sources for learning (about)
> Old and Middle English [...]
> I know that quite a few Lowlanders are interested and versed
> in Old and Middle English.  If any of you (singly or in teams)
> feel inclined and confident, there is nothing to stop you from
> translating our welcoming page into these language varieties.

I have started sketching out a translation of the welcome page
into Old English and Old Saxon.  I would love to hear from
anyone interested in working with me/critiquing my translation;
feel free to email me directly if you wish:
stefansfeder at yahoo.com.
I have never done much with Middle English and so won't attempt
that translation.

For the Old Saxon, I'm inclined to include this verse _de
Heinricho_, a poem from from circa 940 AD, addressing the Saxon
emperor Heinrich, with my quick translation:

primitus quoque dixit   Toeerst sä he ook:
wilicumo Heinrich       willkamen Hinrich
ambo vos aequivoci      wi beide hebbt den glieken Naam'.
bethiu goda endi mi     Gott un mi
nec non et sotii        un ook Frünn'
willicumo sid gi mi     sünd ji mi willkumen

First of all he said:
welcome Heinrich,
we are both namesakes.
Both to God and to me
and also friends
Welcome you are unto me.

Stefan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Thanks, Stefan!  That sounds exciting, to use a very American phrase.

Thanks to Niels Winther I was able to add two items to our list of offline
material for English
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/english_offline.htm): two
books published in Denmark, in English.  They are the only two items currently
marked as new on that list.

Please let me know if you know of any books or tapes worth recommending, so I
can add them to our offline lists
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/guides_offline.htm).

By the way, these pages are visited relatively frequently.  (A number of other
sites link to them.)

Daily visits (unique visitors) per day on record:

Offline Materials Guides:

                Minimum Maximum
Afrikaans       1       17
Dutch           4       28
English         6       61
Frisian         1       15
Low Saxon       4       44
  General       0       17
  Pre-Modern    0       18
  Modern        1       19
Scots           0       13

Online Presentation Guides
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm):

                Minimum Maximum
Afrikaans       0       67
Creoles         0       10
Dutch           2       38
English         0       18
Frisian         0       24
General         0       13
Low Saxon       0       25
Scots           0       41

It would be nice to have such guides for Limburgish and Zeelandic/West Flemish
as well.

I'll have to find a way of making the links to the online and offline guides
more visible on the homepage, because many people visit the Lowlands-L site
and then send me messages asking what other sites there are and/or what kinds
of books and tapes are available.  I'll work on that.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 16:31:49 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.083149.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
20.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Marco Evenhuis wrote:
>
>In Zeeuws, we have 'blaeuw' for any colour stretching from blue to grey.
>It's used less and less in every day speech and replaced bij Dutch 'blauw'
>and 'grijs', except when describing the colour of a grey horse. In Dutch
>such a horse is called 'schimmel' and the colour is referred to as 'grijs'.
>In Zeeuws, we call this kind of horse a 'blaeuwen'.
>
In Dutch and Low-Saxon It's the same for cats and other animals. A
completely greyish cat, is termed a blue cat. Never understood why,
but that's how it is.

Henry Pijffers

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Color terms

Henry,

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]

Henry,
Welke "gryse" katten hebt 'n klöyr; dey is so 'n lüt beten blau.  Daar wegen
heytt de eyn sort "Russian Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw",
"bleus russes", etc., ofschoonst nich elk eyn daar vun blau is; vaken sünd sey
eynfach grys or 'n beten bruun.  Blau is wat besünners.  Villicht is up düsse
wys' "grys" tou "blau" worden.
Gröyten!

Henry,
Some "gray" cats have a bluish tint.  That's why one sort is called "Russian
Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw", "bleus russes", etc., even
though not all of them are bluish; some of them are simply gray or brownish.
Blue is special.  Perhaps this way "gray" came to be generalized as "blue."
Regards!

I wrote:

> Here are some of the main colors in the North Saxon dialects of Low Saxon (Low
> German) of Germany:
>
> witt [vIt]: white (> pale, clean)
>
> blau [bla.U], blaag ~ blaach [blQ:x]: blue (> drunk)
>
> violett [fio'lEt], vigelett [fige'lEt], violenblau [fi'o:ln,bla.U]:
>      violet, bluish purple (Eastern Friesland _zangen_ ['tsa.N:])
>
> rood, root [ro:t] ~ [roUt]: red (> blushed)
>
> purpur(rood) ['p`u3pu3(ro:t)]: (reddish) purple
>
> geel [ge:l]: yellow (> blond, golden, ugly, false; _geel snacken_ 'to
>      speak Germanized Low Saxon', 'to speak German', 'to talk in an
>      uppety/affected way')
>
> gröön [gr9.In], greun [grO.In]: green (> unripe, inexperienced,
>      immature, unprocessed; e.g. _Aal gröön_ 'fresh (vs smoked)
>      eel', _grönen Heern_ 'fresh (vs smoked or pickled) herring')
>
> gries [gri:s], grau [gra.U], graag [grQ:x]: gray (> pale, pallid,
>      ashen, clever, cunning; e.g., _He is 'n Griesen_ 'He's a
>      devious one')
>
> swart [sva:t], swatt [swat]: black (> dark)

I forgot:

bruun [bru:n]: brown (apparently without any derived meanings -- or?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 17:23:09 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:23:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.092309.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Colin Wilson wrote:

> or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
> (misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?
I regularly write 'synthetic English' AKA standard English. I know very few
people who actually speak like that.
I have heard it's possible to do so by placing a round object such as a
marble or plum in one's mouth;-)

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
> remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
> language activists - they assure me that Scots is
> highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
> standardize it!!!

Scots could produce such a person. The problem is not enough people would
agree with them. No matter how pragmatic, logical or well researched the
proposals.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 17:24:30 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:24:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.092430.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa"

Ron Wrote:

> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I get a lot of questions about sources for learning (about) Old and Middle
> English.  I always refer people to our specific English resource page
> (http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/english_offline.htm).
If
> you know of any other good books, please let me know, and I will add them.
>
> I know that quite a few Lowlanders are interested and versed in Old and
Middle
> English.  If any of you (singly or in teams) feel inclined and confident,
> there is nothing to stop you from translating our welcoming page into
these
> language varieties.  I know, I know ... Some will find it silly (and it
would
> require making up a few words), but it might be a "fun" thing for many
> readers.

There are some Anglo-Saxon neologisms at:

http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/4506/neolg.html

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 17:27:05 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:27:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.092705.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> Blue is special.  Perhaps this way "gray" came to be generalized as
"blue."

Could be, especially if you look at the objects that are referred to when
using the word 'blue' for (a shade of) grey. I mentioned earlier that in
Zeeuws everything stretching from bright blue to dark grey is called
'blaeuw' and that plain, dull colours are described as 'graeuw'. But there
is an example I remembered hearing earlier this week that puzzles me: the
colour of milk that was mixed with water to, let's say increase farmers'
income, was also called 'blaeuw'. But this colour doesn't fit the
description above: it's not a bright, clear colour. Therefore, I would have
expected to be called 'graeuw'...

Some other colors in Zeeuws then:

wit (bright white)
bleik (off-white, so not only used to describe pale)
oeranje (orange)
roôd (red)
geluw (yellow)
groeen (green)
bruun (brown)
zwart (black)
gries (grey)
...

regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 21:00:04 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:00:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (06) [E/LS]
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From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

Colin Wilson wrote:

> or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
> (misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

and Andy Eagle replied:

> Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?

Of course it is! But I think a major problem, or let's say challenge, with
relatively small regional languages without (or no longer with) an accepted
standard form is local pride. On the one hand, local pride could be seen as
a condition for survival of a language. But on the other, when it comes to
standardization or acceptance of texts in a standardized spelling or even a
standardized form of the language, strong local pride and 'awakened'
speakers could be a huge disadvantage.
In the case of Catalan, Fabra was lucky to be one of the few people that
were really concerned with the language. Plus that only a very small number
of speakers had an opinion on the subject or even cared about it.
Times changed. People have opinions about everything, simply because of the
huge amount of information that they get by the paper, tv, radio, internet,
etc. People are more aware and involved now then ever before.

When we constructed a spelling for internal (!) use in our Noe-magazine, all
regional media jumped on the subject: 'Zeeuws does not exist; there are only
Zeelandic dialects, so constructing a standard spelling is useless'. They
refused to see that we only made a spelling  in which all different dialects
of Zeeuws could be written without these dialects having to give up their
own identity (all dialects were still recognisable as such). Most speakers
agreed with the media and sent in letters to us and the newspapers. 'I don't
speak Zeeuws, I speak the dialect of the village of Westkapelle'... (I don't
speak Scots, I speak Doric/Glaswegian ('the Patter', wasn't it?)/etc.)

Our standardized way of spelling all dialects of Zeeuws has become more or
less excepted over the years and our magazine florishes. But working towards
a standardized Zeelandic writing language is still very much not-done. Even
blending in words from other dialects than your own in peotry and prose is
not done! Allthough some begin to 'blend' now and the results are promising.
There is no Zeelandic Hugh McDiairmid yet, but we'll get there some day...
I believe we would have had less problems when our little language
renaissance of the past ten years would have taken place much earlier.

By the way, both spelling (to be found under 'Schriefwiezer') and examples
of texts written in this spelling (try Noe-magazine nr. 10, our latest
issue) can be found at www.zeeuws.cjb.net.

regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Marco,

I was very interested to read what you kindly shared above about the Zeelandic
experience.  It is pretty much the same story in the Low Saxon (Low German)
scenario -- same attitudes, same fears, same arguments, same obstacles, but
unfortunately not the same success as yet (although our success is that at
least our language has been officially recognized).

It is very difficult to get people to do what someone once called _över d'n
eygenen töllerrand kyken_ ("to look beyond the edge of one's own plate") and
to abandon the fear that the introduction of a uniform, language-specific
*system* of spelling somehow messes with or obliterates people's respective
home dialects.  As you know from your own experience, dialectal differences
will remain if a uniform system is used, but interdialectal reading
comprehension will be improved.

I commend you on your efforts and congratulate you on your success with _Noe_
and beyond.  Daar köönt wy wat vun af-leyren.

Gröötnissen,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: It would be nice if the Zeêuwse Taelsite had a link to our Lowlands-L
page under "Butendiekse taelen in de Laege Landen."  And we should start a
Zeelandic links page for LL-L.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 00:36:53 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:36:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (07) [E]
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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 09:23 21/02/01 -0800, Andy Eagle wrote:

>Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?

Not necessarily: see below.

>I regularly write 'synthetic English' AKA standard English. I know very few
>people who actually speak like that.

So-called "standard" English isn't synthetic, in that it isn't
a synthesis - something that someone has put together, combining
different components from different sources. "Standard" English is
really just a formalised version of the dialect spoken by the
English ruling class.

The term "synthetic Scots" was coined (possibly even by the poet
himself) to describe the work of Hugh MacDiarmid, who wrote poetry
in a form of Scots composed from words drawn from different regional
dialects, as well as a small proportion of obsolete vocabulary
found in dictionaries.

At the time, it was an apt description, but around the time of the
Second World War the word "synthetic" came to be (mis-)applied to
ersatz products so that, for example, "synthetic coffee" was
something that tasted similar to coffee but wasn't coffee. The
connotations of the word "synthetic" are fairly derogatory nowadays,
and are only slightly short of describing something as "fake".

When I sent an early draft of the manuscript for "Stertin Oot in
Scots" to Hodder & Stoughton to be considered for publication, they
(for reasons best known to themselves) gave it to a Gaelic-language
activist to review. I don't know who it was, except that it was
either Boyd Robertson or Iain Taylor, but he gave it a nervous,
anxious review, hostile not just to what I'd written but even to the
very idea of teaching Scots. One of his comments was "the language
in this book appears to be a form of "synthetic Scots".

Although it was no such thing, the reviewer was quite content
to exploit, disingenuously, the now derogatory connotations of the
word "synthetic" to an editor who probably knew nothing of the
significance of the term "synthetic Scots". Needless to say, the
manuscript was rejected for publication.

As a description for a form of Scots derived in this way, I'd
much prefer the term "composite Scots". I'm not convinced of the
need for such a thing, although I do believe that there's a need
for some basic standards, and I also believe there's a great need
for an accepted generic Scots orthography.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"
>
> Ian James Parsley wrote:
>
> >Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
> > remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
> > language activists - they assure me that Scots is
> > highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
> > standardize it!!!
>
> Scots could produce such a person. The problem is not enough people would
> agree with them. No matter how pragmatic, logical or well researched the
> proposals.

I think you have to be careful what you say (or keep on saying)
about the nature of Scots and its users/proponents.

Although Scots enthusiasts do disagree a lot, this is a lot to
do with the ignorance that derives from the fact that no-one
has a formal education in the language, coupled with the fact
that some bring political motives into the arena.

I think we need to stop touting the idea that proponents of
Scots never agree about the language, before the sheer
impossibility of educating anyone in the proper use of the
language turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Why should us Scots hold a special position on contumaciousness?
The only difference between us and the Catalans is that we
tolerate and even propagate these myths about ourselves.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Marco Evenhuis wrote:

>
> Colin Wilson wrote:
>
> > or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
> > (misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.
>
> and Andy Eagle replied:
>
> > Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?
>
> Of course it is! But I think a major problem, or let's say challenge, with
> relatively small regional languages without (or no longer with) an
accepted
> standard form is local pride. On the one hand, local pride could be seen
as
> a condition for survival of a language. But on the other, when it comes to
> standardization or acceptance of texts in a standardized spelling or even
a
> standardized form of the language, strong local pride and 'awakened'
> speakers could be a huge disadvantage.

The same is true with Scots especially vis-ayis Central and northern
Dialects.
Any good standard written form should be read and pronounced as it locally
would be. The spellings then represent under lying phonemes an not a
particular pronunciation. No variety is seen as more 'proper' than any
other.

> In the case of Catalan, Fabra was lucky to be one of the few people that
> were really concerned with the language. Plus that only a very small
number
> of speakers had an opinion on the subject or even cared about it.
> Times changed. People have opinions about everything, simply because of
the
> huge amount of information that they get by the paper, tv, radio,
internet,
> etc. People are more aware and involved now then ever before.

It's hopefully through the use of such media that people can be persuaded
that a 'pan-dialect' written form makes sense for communicating to a wider
audience that your own village etc.

> When we constructed a spelling for internal (!) use in our Noe-magazine,
all
> regional media jumped on the subject: 'Zeeuws does not exist; there are
only
> Zeelandic dialects, so constructing a standard spelling is useless'. They
> refused to see that we only made a spelling  in which all different
dialects
> of Zeeuws could be written without these dialects having to give up their
> own identity (all dialects were still recognisable as such). Most speakers
> agreed with the media and sent in letters to us and the newspapers. 'I
don't
> speak Zeeuws, I speak the dialect of the village of Westkapelle'... (I
don't
> speak Scots, I speak Doric/Glaswegian ('the Patter', wasn't it?)/etc.)

I take it all the so called 'power languages' mention during theis thread
have dialect as well but no one seems to argue "there are only 'insert power
language name here' dialects, so constructing a standard spelling is
useless". Such attitudes are based on the assumtion that leser used language
have no merit.

> Our standardized way of spelling all dialects of Zeeuws has become more or
> less excepted over the years and our magazine florishes. But working
towards
> a standardized Zeelandic writing language is still very much not-done.
Even
> blending in words from other dialects than your own in peotry and prose is
> not done! Allthough some begin to 'blend' now and the results are
promising.
> There is no Zeelandic Hugh McDiairmid yet, but we'll get there some day...
> I believe we would have had less problems when our little language
> renaissance of the past ten years would have taken place much earlier.

Words from various English dialects spread through TV. Scots is as good as
never heard on TV so any spreading of words through the use of written media
is decried as artificial. These critics seem to be using two different sets
of rules when they make such comments.

In English, if people here a word or phrase they like - for what ever
reason- on TV or read it in a well known best-seller they may adopt it. No
one seems to object. How many cockney phrases or Americanisms etc. are used
up and down the british Isles because of (London based) TV? Do this with
Scots and the critics are down on you like a ton o bricks.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 16:56:43 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:56:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.085643.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:
>
>Henry,
>Welke "gryse" katten hebt 'n klöyr; dey is so 'n lüt beten blau.  Daar wegen
>heytt de eyn sort "Russian Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw",
>"bleus russes", etc., ofschoonst nich elk eyn daar vun blau is; vaken sünd sey
>eynfach grys or 'n beten bruun.  Blau is wat besünners.  Villicht is up düsse
>wys' "grys" tou "blau" worden.
>Gröyten!
>
>Henry,
>Some "gray" cats have a bluish tint.  That's why one sort is called "Russian
>Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw", "bleus russes", etc., even
>though not all of them are bluish; some of them are simply gray or brownish.
>Blue is special.  Perhaps this way "gray" came to be generalized as "blue."
>Regards!
>
Well, I delved into cat colors and cat genetics a while ago, because I'm quite
a cat lover. There isn't any mentioning of the term "gray" ever being used for
a Russian Blue or a British Blue. It's always been "blue". Even though not all
of them have that shade of blue, as you mentioned. So I think the use of blue
for gray is a bit older than cat breeding history.

regards,
Henry

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 17:05:45 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:05:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language survival"

Colin Wilson wrote:

> As a description for a form of Scots derived in this way, I'd
> much prefer the term "composite Scots"

"composite" still strikes me as a bit abstract and not so
positive.  Might not something like "all-Scots Scots" or
"broadreach Scots" (braedreach?) give it a more positive tone
and catchier name, something that stresses that it is reaching
out across the varieties of Scots?

Stefan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

> "composite" still strikes me as a bit abstract and not so
> positive.  Might not something like "all-Scots Scots" or
> "broadreach Scots" (braedreach?) give it a more positive tone
> and catchier name, something that stresses that it is reaching
> out across the varieties of Scots?

How about "General Scots," "Universal Scots" or "Interdialectal Scots"?
("Common Scots" won't do, I suppose, because of the semantic range of
'common', including 'vulgar'.)

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (06) [E/LS]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

> I was very interested to read what you kindly shared above about the
Zeelandic
> experience.  It is pretty much the same story in the Low Saxon (Low
German)
> scenario -- same attitudes, same fears, same arguments, same obstacles,
but
> unfortunately not the same success as yet (although our success is that at
> least our language has been officially recognized).

I wouldn't call the success of out magazine a success for the Zeelandic
language  as a whole. There is not one single place where you can learn the
language, there is no attention what so ever for it in education, there
isn't even a university where the language is studied (which makes Zeeuws
unique within the Netherlands and Flanders), there is only very limited
media attention (Omroep Zeeland, the only regional radio and tv-station,
only broadcasts one hour a week in Zeeuws on radio and no Zeeuws on
television), etc.

Our magazine, which we started early 1998, now has about 1,000 subscribers
(700 of them living in Zeeland, some 200 elsewhere in the Netherlands or
Belgium and about 100 in e.g. Canada, the US, Scotland, Ireland, northern
France, etc.). For the majority, the first Noe-magazine they received, was
the first time that they were ever confronted with their language in a
written form.
About 140 different people wrote articles, prose, poetry for it, about 120
never wrote anything in Zeeuws before that.
So in that way, Noe is a success. On a very small scale though.

Thanks for your support, Ron,

regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 23:33:40 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:33:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.153340.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> In English, if people here a word or phrase they like - for what ever
> reason- on TV or read it in a well known best-seller they may adopt it. No
> one seems to object. How many cockney phrases or Americanisms
> etc. are used
> up and down the british Isles because of (London based) TV? Do this with
> Scots and the critics are down on you like a ton o bricks.

I'd say little or no Cockney gets into other dialects via TV.
The reason London expressions spread is because there are so
many Londoners on the island as compared to anybody else.

Certainly there's a popular long-running Cockney soap and
various other programmes by Londoners (again expected as
there are so many Londoners), but there are also similar
and even longer-running soaps from the north west of England,
and nobody in Scotland starts talking like that.

You should also note that there is very little Cockney spoken
on TV. One complaint I do often here from the Londoners down
here is that the Cockney of "Eastenders" has been grossly
anglified so that the rest of the nation can understand -
pretty much in the way that programmes by what should be
Scots speakers are heavily anglified for non-Scots.

Because of the ongoing tradition of rhyming slang in Cockney
many speakers are not only incomprehensible to people from
other parts of the island but sometimes trip each other up
because new expressions continually arise and immediately
become accepted as standard by those who have heard them. A
couple of young chaps from London I work with and who know
"all" the rhyming slang, recently overheard someone in a
London bar asking for a "couple of Nelsons". They were
stumped until they saw the barman reaching for the Stella
Artois!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 00:46:51 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:46:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
 22.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.164651.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Colin Wilson wrote:

> So-called "standard" English isn't synthetic, in that it isn't
> a synthesis - something that someone has put together, combining
> different components from different sources. "Standard" English is
> really just a formalised version of the dialect spoken by the
> English ruling class.

To a certain extent I agree with you but were not the prescriptive
introduction of Latin grammar features such as not ending a sentence with a
preposition, avoidance of split infinitives and the 'you and I' business
'synthetic'? Not to mention pseudo etymological spellings like the <s> in
island and the <b> in debt etc. What about the numerous vocabulary items
coined from Latin and Greek roots?

> As a description for a form of Scots derived in this way, I'd
> much prefer the term "composite Scots". I'm not convinced of the
> need for such a thing, although I do believe that there's a need
> for some basic standards, and I also believe there's a great need
> for an accepted generic Scots orthography.

I prefer the term General Scots.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 01:21:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:21:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.172154.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I was interested to come across the Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'to dip', 'to
bathe', 'to duck' (> noun _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'dip', 'swim', _dookers_ ~ _doukers_
'bathing costume').  It overlaps semantically greatly with what appears to be
the Low Saxon (Low German) cognate /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N] 'to duck', 'to
dive (under water, not into the water)', 'to dip' (> _duuknackt_ ~
_duuknackig_ "duck-necked" = 'with hanging head').  These appear to be related
to Dutch _duiken_ 'to take a dive', 'to plunge', 'to hide (in something)', and
German _tauchen_ 'to dive (under water, not into the water)'.  Yet, German
also has _ducken_ 'to duck'.  Are we talking about two word origins or two?
Is German _ducken_ a Low Saxon loan?  It looks that way to me.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 15:24:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:24:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.072432.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" (was "Language survival")
LOWLANDS-L,         22.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Andy and Colin,

You will already be aware of plans for a Language
Learning Centre for Scots to be placed in Co Donegal
later this year.

However, the necessity under the Belfast Agreement
1998 (or 'Good Friday Agreement') for an office in
Donegal means we have had to speed up the process
somewhat.

At a recent meeting in Dublin with Donall O Riagain,
senior EBLUL adviser, he pointed out that there was no
point in such a centre without it being linked to
education in schools and that, in addition, there was
no point in placing Scots into the school system
without decent teaching materials (and materials for
teacher training). Of course, these are nigh
impossible without as least an 'educational standard',
because it will be unbelievably confusing to try to
teach people Modern Scots without some written
material, and that written material must be consistent
(you can change the system after a generation, but
it's no good tampering with it every year). This means
a form of 'Composite' or 'General' Scots is required
urgently, and that it must be agreed with Scotland
otherwise we'll end up having to do our own materials
on either side of the North Channel, and that would be
a ludicrously unnecessary expense for each side if we
can do them together.

However, before we can even do that we have to raise
awareness of the need for such a 'standard' or
'guidelines' among native speakers, and explain
exactly what it would be used for.

Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 15:26:24 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:26:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
 23.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.072624.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

I have never noticed that London expressions spread
from there into other English dialacts, nobody would
use words like "barnet" for hair in Newcastle,
speaking for Tyneside I believe that there is an
increasing number of American-sounding expressions
which seem to spread but many of them can be traced
back old-Geordie expressions, or at least similar
sounding ones and through AE those expressions are
getting reinforced in Tyneside, not too surprising
when considering that AE had a strong Northern-English
influence as well and is much closer to old English
than London-English is.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 15:53:39 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:53:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.075339.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ron heff fraagt:

> Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'to dip', 'to bathe', 'to duck'

> the Low Saxon (Low German) cognate /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N]
> 'to duck', 'to dive (under water, not into the water)',

> Dutch _duiken_ 'to take a dive', 'to plunge', 'to hide (in
something)'

> German _tauchen_ 'to dive (under water, not into the water)'.
> Yet, German also has _ducken_ 'to duck'.  Are we talking about

> two word origins or two?
> Is German _ducken_ a Low Saxon loan?  It looks that way to me.

The Duden Herkunftswörterbuch lists Old High German
_iintu^hhan_, Dutch _duiken_, English _to duck_ and makes the
reasonable suggestion that _dukk-_ is an intensive.  It does not
mention Old High German _fertu^hhen_ "in Vergessenheit
versinken", a strong verb.
It also points out that the English bird the duck presumably
gets its name from this verb.

Thus the original verb would have been *du^kan, which gives us
_duiken_ and _tauchen_, and the intensive *dukjan > *dukkjan.
Usually a strong verb like this should have had -iu- (**diukan),
but some of them simply had long _u_, for reasons unknown, e.g.
_slutan_ 'to shut', _lukan_ 'to close', _bugan_ 'to bend, bow'
Intensives formed from such verbs have just the short -u-, and
the old ending -j- causes the consonant to double, e.g.
*skiotan/skuttjan > schiessen/schützen.
>>From this we get *dukkjan > duck (sort of).  The odd thing is
that you really should get umlaut there: *dükkjan > English
**ditch; I'm not sure why you'd get the long consonant with the
umlaut and palatalization.

Stefan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for your exhaustive explanation above, Stefan.

I wrote:

> /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N] 'to duck', 'to
> dive (under water, not into the water)', 'to dip' (> _duuknackt_ ~
> _duuknackig_ "duck-necked" = 'with hanging head')

There is another alternative form: _duuknacksch_ (with _-sch_ expressing
manner).  And there is another one with a short vowel: _ducknackig_!

I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine noun
_Dückdalben_ ['dYkda.lb=m] ~ _Düükdalben_ ['dy:kda.lb=m] ~ _Duckdalben_
['dUkda.lb=m] (pl. same) and if it is related to the former, in this case
having umlauting in some dialects.  It denotes a group or row of large poles
or posts, partly submerge in water, to which  moored ships are tied.

I have never come across *_Dalben_ or *_Dalven_ by itself.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 18:07:11 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:07:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.100711.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> I have never come across *_Dalben_ or *_Dalven_ by itself.

I had some vague recollection of some word like "Dolben" or the
like meaning 'peg' (I was thinking of _Dübel_, which is hardly
likely to be related).  While searching in my Duden
Universalwörterbuch, I came across High German (from Low German)
_Dalbe, Dalben_ "Kurzf[orm] von Duckdalbe, Duckdalben".  It
lists _die Duckdalbe/ der Duckdalben_ and "seltener Dückdalbe /
Dückdalben".  Their tentative etymology is to the tauchen/duiken
word and to Dolle < mniederd. _dolle_ "drehbare eiserne Gabel an
der Bordwand zur Aufnahme des Ruders"

It's something of a stretch from _dolle_ to _dalve_, but I can't
think of anything better right off.

English "dowel [pin]" [dau. at l] is listed as coming from Low
German _dövel_, 'peg, block, nail".  Again, it's a stretch to
turn _dövel_ into _Dalve_.

Stefan

----------

From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 07:53 AM 02/23/01 -0800, Stephan wrote:
>It also points out that the English bird the duck presumably
>gets its name from this verb.

"What did the Rooster do when it started to rain?"

"He took a duck under the porch"

Sorry, couldn't resist.  Say, Ron, I wonder how this pun would translate
into LS?

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Stefan wrote:

> I had some vague recollection of some word like "Dolben" or the
> like meaning 'peg'

Perhaps (*_Dolbe_ >) Modern North Saxon _Doll(e)_ [dO.l(e)] ~ _Dull_ [dU.l],
which denotes not only 'peg' and specifically 'one of two pegs between which a
boat's paddle is anchored' but can also be used to denote the same as
_Dückdalben_ ~ _Düükdalben_ ~ _Duckdalben_ mentioned earlier.  However, I
cannot think of any other instances of assimilation of /b/ or /v/ to preceding
/l/ (/lb/~/lv/ -> ll), while assimilation of /d/ to preceding /l/, /r/ and /n/
is common in North Saxon dialects (/ld/ -> ll, /rd/ -> r(r), /nd/ -> nn; e.g.,
_holden_ > _hol(l)en_ 'to hold', _warden_ > _warren_ 'to become', _finden_ >
_finnen_ 'to find').  Besides, _Doll(e)_ ~ _Dull_ is feminine (pl. _Dollen_ ~
Dullen_), and I would expect _Dolben_ ~ _Dolven_ to be masculine.

I have never come accross *_Dövel_ or *_Döbel_ in modern dialects.  On the
other hand, Low Saxon (Low German) likes to metathesize certain consonant
sequences, especially those involving liquids (/l/ and /r/).  We have examples
such as /köür+S/ 'choice' + manner > (_köörsch_ ~) _küürsch_ > _krüüsch_
'choosy', 'picky', and *_wilge_ > _Wichel_ 'willow'.  Thus, I can imagine
earlier *_dövel_ ~ *_dovel_ to have metathesized to (*_dolve_ or *_dolev_ >)
_Doll(e)_.  Gender does not seem to be too much of a problem, considering that
a great many Low Saxon nouns occur dialectally with different genders,
sometimes with all three genders.

Ed:

> "What did the Rooster do when it started to rain?"
>
> "He took a duck under the porch"
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.  Say, Ron, I wonder how this pun would translate
> into LS?

Sorry, Ed.  It doesn't work, for two reasons:

(1) 'to take a {verb>noun)', 'to go for a {verb>noun}' and 'to have a
{verb>noun}' is uniquely English (and Scots?), I believe.

(2) /duuk-/ _duken_ ~ /duk-/ _ducken_ 'to duck' vs /aant/ _Aant_ ~ _Oont_
'duck' (the bird)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 19:35:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:35:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
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=======================================================================

From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

At 10:07 AM 02/23/01 -0800, Ron wrote:

Sorry, Ed.  It doesn't work, for two reasons:

(1) 'to take a {verb>noun)', 'to go for a {verb>noun}' and 'to have a
{verb>noun}' is uniquely English (and Scots?), I believe.

(2) /duuk-/ _duken_ ~ /duk-/ _ducken_ 'to duck' vs /aant/ _Aant_ ~ _Oont_
'duck' (the bird)

No, I meant the part about the Hahn.  I knew it wouldn't work.

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
"More buildings are destroyed every year by termites than by fires"

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

> I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine noun
> _Dückdalben_ ['dYkda.lb=m] ~ _Düükdalben_ ['dy:kda.lb=m] ~ _Duckdalben_
> ['dUkda.lb=m] (pl. same) and if it is related to the former, in this case
> having umlauting in some dialects.  It denotes a group or row of large
poles
> or posts, partly submerge in water, to which  moored ships are tied.

I vaguely remember that this word (Dutch: dukdalf) has something to do with
'duc d'Alve'... See if I can find some more details...

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:02:28 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:02:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.150228.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> Perhaps (*_Dolbe_ >) Modern North Saxon _Doll(e)_ [dO.l(e)] ~
> _Dull_ [dU.l] [...]
> However, I  cannot think of any other instances of
> assimilation of /b/ or /v/ to preceding /l/ (/lb/~/lv/ -> ll),

> while assimilation of /d/ to preceding  /l/, /r/ and /n/
> is common in North Saxon dialects (/ld/ -> ll, /rd/ -> r(r),
> /nd/ -> nn    [...] Besides, _Doll(e)_ ~ _Dull_ is feminine
> (pl. _Dollen_ ~ > Dullen_), and I would expect _Dolben_ ~
> _Dolven_ to be masculine.

On the other hand... part of the High German territory turned
medial [v] <w> into [b], e.g. gelw- > German _gelb_ vs. _geel_
or _yellow_,  or Bavarian Iwein > Iban.
Just as /gelv/ yielded Platt _geel_ (in all dialects of Platt?),
*dolv- might yield _Dolle_, alongside _Dolve_ in other dialects,
and Dolb- in upper Germany.

As far as the gender goes, the word usually occurs in the
plural, making its gender hard to keep track of over time.

Stefan

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I was interested to come across the Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_

The Scottish National Dictionary lists "dook" as existing
in Old Scots and also lists Dutch, English and Low Saxon
cognates.

As well as the standard meaning of "to dip" or "to take a
dip", there are various other uses in modern Scots.

The local river at our village has a wide part where
children build a dam to make a large, deep pool to swim
in. This pool is called the "big dooker", and the smaller,
shallower pool in front of the dam the "wee dooker". This
sort of activity is rarer now that most localities have
an indoor swimming pool.

A "dookie piece" is a piece of bread soaked in the gravy
from mince (=American "hamburger") or stew to tide a child
over until the meal is ready. I recently discussed this
tasty morsel with a friend from Paisley whose mother also
made him this in the run-up to meal times, so it is a
country-wide thing.

Ducking for apples at Halloween is called "dookin", and
the apples are called "dookin aiples".

A member of a Baptist Church is known as a "dookit body".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Sandy wrote:

> A "dookie piece" is a piece of bread soaked in the gravy
> from mince (=American "hamburger") or stew to tide a child
> over until the meal is ready.

> Ducking for apples at Halloween is called "dookin", and
> the apples are called "dookin aiples".

This reminds me of American English 'to dunk' in the sense of 'to dip (an
object in liquid)', hence also American 'dunking for apples' and 'apple
dunking' where non-American has 'ducking for apples' and Scots has 'dookin
aiples'.  (The basketball use of 'to dunk' must be a derivation.)  According
to the _American Heritage Dictionary_, 'to dunk' comes from "Pennsylvania
Dutch" (i.e., Pennsylvania German or "Pennsylfanisch (Daitsch)," an American
dialect of Hessian German) -- I suppose _dunke_ 'to dip'.  (Pennsylvania
German has /d/ where Standard German has /t/.)  The Standard German cognate is
_tunken_ with the same meaning, usually used in the sense of dipping pieces of
food in soup, sauce or gravy, hence the derivation _Tunke_, the native
equivalent of _Soße_ (< French _sauce_) 'sauce', 'gravy'.

'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I tried to think of the Low Saxon (Low German) equivalent of German
_(ein)tunken_ in the sense of 'to dip pieces of food in soup, sauce, gravy,
cocoa, etc.'.  *_Dunken_ or *_dünken_?  Nope.  I don't think so, even though
it works phonologically.  I would use either /dip-/ _dippen_ (cf. English 'to
dip') or /stip-/ _stippen_ (with the additional meaning of 'to touch lightly,
with a fingertip').  (_Dippen_ seems to have the German cognate _tupfen_ 'to
dab', 'to dot'. Could /stip-/ be one of those elusive roots with the s-
prefix?)  Cf. English _to stipple_.  The Low Saxon feminine noun (_Stippe_ >)
_Stipp_ (also neuter _Stipp_) denotes a thick and/or fatty sauce or gravy, or
better to say a 'dip'.)  (In Hamburg, a _Stipperspott_ is a casserole pot with
a long handle.)  The masculine noun _Stipp_ denotes 'short moment', 'jiffy',
'wink' and 'short visit', expanded to _Stippvisiet_ (> German _Stipvisite_)
'short visit'.  Masculine _Stippel_ denotes 'dot'.

Aha!  So perhaps Standard German _tunken_ and Pennsylfanisch _dunke_ are
cognates of Low Saxon _duken_ and Scots 'dook', only "Ingveonically
n-deprived"!  What do you think, folks?

Pondering,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:55:30 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:55:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.155530.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Margaret Tarbet [oneko at mindspring.com]
Subject: Etymology

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:02:28 -0800, Ron wrote:

>This reminds me of American English 'to dunk' in the sense of 'to dip (an
>object in liquid)', hence also American 'dunking for apples' and 'apple
>dunking' where non-American has 'ducking for apples' and Scots has 'dookin
>aiples'.

Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?  I've
never.  'Bobbing' and 'ducking'/'dookin', yes, but never 'dunking'.
I only know 'dunk' as a transitive verb, and always in connection
with Germanic culture and coffee (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa,
Minnesota,Texas hill country).   Anything else (e.g., bread in gravy
or soup, etc.) has always been 'dip', or if in the sense of
'drench':  'sop'/'soop' or 'soak'/'sook'.

>'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I'd almost bet not, just remembering where it was popular before the
telly homogenised everything.  Or if it is American, it's
Lowlandic-American.

Margaret

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Margaret wrote:

> Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?

I have indeed, though I agree that it seems a bit strange, so I wonder if it
has been "contaminated" by non-American "ducking for apples."  Yes, usually
'to dunk' is transitive (as in "Dunkin' Donuts"), but perhaps it can be both
transitive and intransitive, as can Low Saxon _duken_ and German _tauchen_
(though transitively they tend to have the prefixes _in-_ and _ein-_
respectively).

A cursory web search brought up "dunking for apples" at these sites among
others:

http://halloweenfreak.homepage.com/halloween4.html
http://ashland-city.k12.oh.us/ahs/classes/panorama/97-10-17/pg2.html
http://132.183.145.103/forum_2/LandauKleffnerSynF/HavinofallthingsFUN.html
http://www.bsaboston.org/happening/familycamp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~SNE/bmc.htm

Go figure!

Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 19:10:36 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:10:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.FEB.2001.111036.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]

At 16:46 22/02/01 -0800, Andy Eagle wrote:

>To a certain extent I agree with you but were not the prescriptive
>introduction of Latin grammar features such as not ending a sentence with
a
>preposition, avoidance of split infinitives and the 'you and I' business
>'synthetic'? Not to mention pseudo etymological spellings like the <s> in
>island and the <b> in debt etc. What about the numerous vocabulary items
>coined from Latin and Greek roots?

Yes, you could probably justify the use of the word "synthetic"
here, although it doesn't have the same significance as in the
term "synthetic Scots". Deliberately introducing foreign elements
into a language is quite a different thing from creating a new
variety of a language from a synthesis of existing varieties.

My suggestion of "composite Scots" was only that, a suggestion,
and there may be better alternatives such as those that have since
been suggested here. However, I do think we need to lose the
description "synthetic" because, to many people nowadays, it just
means "bogus".

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 19:16:33 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:16:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.FEB.2001.111633.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]

At 03:55 PM 02/23/01 -0800, Margaret Tarbet wrote:

Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?  I've
never.  'Bobbing' and 'ducking'/'dookin', yes, but never 'dunking'.
I only know 'dunk' as a transitive verb, and always in connection
with Germanic culture and coffee (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa,
Minnesota,Texas hill country).   Anything else (e.g., bread in gravy
or soup, etc.) has always been 'dip', or if in the sense of
'drench':  'sop'/'soop' or 'soak'/'sook'.

>'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I'd almost bet not, just remembering where it was popular before the
telly homogenised everything.  Or if it is American, it's
Lowlandic-American.

Very interesting.  I was surprised at the theory that the word may be
borrowed into American English, since the usage is so pervasive.  We only
say "dunking" for apples at Halloween, and I've never heard any other
variant such as "ducking".  In addition to the coffee shop chain called
Dunkin' Donuts, I've also heard "to take a dunk".  Everywhere I've
travelled and lived in North America, everyone has pretty well understood
and used the verb to dunk, i.e. to dip, and although it has an almost
interchangeable meaning with the latter, yet dunk seems to be used in more
colloquial contexts.  This fact alone would not necessarily point to a
borrowed origin.  However, when I looked for it in my large Funk & Wagnalls
1914 US dictionary, I find Dunkers, but no dunking.  So perhaps it is
borrowed from Rhinelandic or Lowlandic immigrants.

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
"More buildings are destroyed every year by termites than by fires"

----------

From: Ethan Barrett [barrett at kitcarson.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]

Intersting!  In the appalachians of Virginia we commonly said bobbing for
apples, but dunking was occaisionally said in reference to the halloween
tradition.  Dunking is used in Virginia when speaking of soup and crackers
or bread or when speaking of cookies and milk.  Oh!  That is interesting!
The British call cookies buscuits. Where did the word 'cookie' come from?
Scotland?  Where before that?

-----Original Message-----
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Margaret wrote:

> Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?

I have indeed, though I agree that it seems a bit strange, so I wonder if
it
has been "contaminated" by non-American "ducking for apples."  Yes, usually

'to dunk' is transitive (as in "Dunkin' Donuts"), but perhaps it can be
both
transitive and intransitive, as can Low Saxon _duken_ and German _tauchen_
(though transitively they tend to have the prefixes _in-_ and _ein-_
respectively).

A cursory web search brought up "dunking for apples" at these sites among
others:

http://halloweenfreak.homepage.com/halloween4.html
http://ashland-city.k12.oh.us/ahs/classes/panorama/97-10-17/pg2.html
http://132.183.145.103/forum_2/LandauKleffnerSynF/HavinofallthingsFUN.html
http://www.bsaboston.org/happening/familycamp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~SNE/bmc.htm

Go figure!

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

> I tried to think of the Low Saxon (Low German) equivalent of
> German _(ein)tunken_ in the sense of 'to dip pieces of food in

> soup, sauce, gravy, cocoa, etc.'.  *_Dunken_ or *_dünken_?
> Nope.  I don't think so, even though  it works
> phonologically.  I would use either /dip-/ _dippen_
> (cf. English 'to dip') or /stip-/ _stippen_ (with the
> additional meaning of 'to touch lightly,
> with a fingertip').  (_Dippen_ seems to have the German
> cognate _tupfen_ 'to dab', 'to dot'. Could /stip-/ be one of
> those elusive roots with the s- prefix?)

could very easily be, they are a lot of them.  Of course, on the
other hand, it's not easy to tell those apart from chance
resemblances.

> Aha!  So perhaps Standard German _tunken_ and Pennsylfanisch
> _dunke_ are cognates of Low Saxon _duken_ and Scots 'dook',
> only "Ingveonically n-deprived"!  What do you think, folks?

It's problematic-  Ingveonic Nasalschwund und Ersatzdehnung only
happened in front of spirants: f, th, s, as in finf/fiif, uns/us
etc.  There isn't any parallel for n disappearing before k.

On the other hand- if we go way back, to Proto-Indo-European,
which frequently put the curious n-infix -into- verbs under some
circumstances (e.g. stand/stood, Latin frango/fractus 'break',
etc.).  Unfortunately, that should happen only in strong verbs.
So  it's a stretch, but a thought.
The Duden etymologic dictionary connects _tunken_ to a root
*teng-, 'to moisten', related to Lat. _tingere, tinctura_ 'to
moisten'.  Now, etymology is a somewhat statistical science- we
can be confident that the bulk of etymologies are sound, but
unless a word has something rather unique about it, you can't be
sure if any individual etymology is correct.  Still, the Duden
etymology works better than what I suggested.

Steff

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 21:03:26 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:03:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 15:33 22/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:
>I'd say little or no Cockney gets into other dialects via TV.
>The reason London expressions spread is because there are so
>many Londoners on the island as compared to anybody else.

I do remember reading of a study a couple of years ago where it was
shown that the speech of children in some areas of Glasgow was
being affected by London English. This really would have to be
caused by the TV, as those children's direct personal contact with
London English would be minimal.

I wonder if Sandy, or anyone, can suggest an explanation for how
"cheers" has largely displaced "thanks" in colloquial usage, even
here in northern Scotland.

I can honestly say that I had *never* heard the word used in that
way, until I took a job in Potters Bar (just outside London) in
1979. Nowadays, you even see it in written Scots, in the newsgroups
for example.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 01:00:19 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:00:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.FEB.2001.170019.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language contacts"

> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
>
> I do remember reading of a study a couple of years ago where it was
> shown that the speech of children in some areas of Glasgow was
> being affected by London English. This really would have to be
> caused by the TV, as those children's direct personal contact with
> London English would be minimal.

There are a few constants to be borne in mind here.

One is that very few people pick up any significant amount of
usage without meeting someone in person who speaks that way.
This is because passive and active vocabularies are separated
- it takes a conscious effort to keep moving words from ones
passive to ones active vocabulary and so change ones speech
patterns - or, for that matter, across the written/spoken word
barrier. (And as an aside, it's worth stopping to think for a
moment about why it's almost impossible to get Scots speakers
to improve their Scots vocabulary - someone has to go first,
and this is a role that's normally taken by teachers or parents.
If teachers only use English and parents don't correct their
children's Scots, then the language starts to die.)

Anyway, this is why language isn't transmitted through a passive
medium like TV. If it were, then surely British women of all ages
would be speaking a mixture of Cockney, Manky and Scouse by now?
Linguistic maps show language change occurring along trunk roads
and railways, hence cities taking up on the permanent changes
more quickly than country areas.

The exception is youth slang, where younger people deliberately
pick up expressions from the TV and certain types of film and use
them with their peers to show that they're up-to-date. This sort
of language tends to be transient, however. For example, the
resuscitated "cool" of modern youth doesn't mean the same thing
as it did in the sixties. The craze for "dudespeak" that was rife
amongst British youth only five years ago has vanished, being
replaced by such expressions as "chilled", "tops banana" &c.

One thing worth noting, though, is that some new trends such as
email and newsgroups do excercise active vocabulary, but there's
still the written/spoken word barrier to protect native speech.

> I wonder if Sandy, or anyone, can suggest an explanation for how
> "cheers" has largely displaced "thanks" in colloquial usage, even
> here in northern Scotland.

I don't think I've heard it in my part of Scotland - certainly
I never use it myself. It's possible that people have become
used to using this word through picking it up in drinking
routines.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 19:17:52 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:17:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.111752.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Pat Reynolds [pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Possibly not counting as a 'significant' change, a study in Milton
Keynes (Bucks) about ten years ago (I think) found that young people
were speaking what you'ld expect - except they'd got a few Australian
vowel sounds, picked up from soaps.

Best wishes to all,
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years
time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 19:20:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:20:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.112006.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

> I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine noun
>.....~ _Duckdalben_
>.  It denotes a group or row of large
> poles or posts, partly submerge in water, to which  moored ships are
tied.
>
> I have never come across *_Dalben_ or *_Dalven_ by itself.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Düeset Waterbauweärks es erfunnen worn van Hertog d'Alba.
Borüm  de Lüe denn de besunnere Anordnung van Pöhle und Pöste
im Water Dalben nömt weit ek nit.
Gued gaohn
Reiner

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 02:57:56 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:57:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.185756.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]

> From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
> Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
>
> > I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine
noun
> >.....~ _Duckdalben_
> Düeset Waterbauweärks es erfunnen worn van Hertog d'Alba.
> Borüm  de Lüe denn de besunnere Anordnung van Pöhle und Pöste
> im Water Dalben nömt weit ek nit.
> Gued gaohn
> Reiner

Hieronder wat erover op de CDROM van het WNT (Woordenboek der
Nederlandsche Taal) te vinden is:

--- quote (pasted from the CD ROM):

DUKDALF, znw. m. Ontleend aan den eigennaam Duc d' Albe.

1) De hertog van Alva, en bij uitbreiding: wreed tyran. || Dien
snorcker, die ... van syn vromicheyt soo wonder veel vertelt Als of hy
had Ducdalf geslagen uyttet velt, V. BEAUMONT 64. Een party wyven die my
voor een tyran, voor een beul, voor een Ducdalf uitschelden, V. EFFEN,
Spect. 1, 82.

2) In een vaarwater staande zware paal, gesteund door drie tot zes
symmetrisch geplaatste schoorpalen. || Duckdalf. Een hooft van zware
palen in 't water geslagen, daer men schepen aen belegt, en vast maekt,
't geen zijn naem behout van den Hertogh van Alva ..., die insgelijcks
hart en onverzettelijck was, als dit paelwerk, WITSEN, Scheepsb. 489 b.
Verscheiden' schepen werden zo vreesselyk geslingerd van den wind, dat
zy, de zogenaamde Dukd'alven, zynde bossen van zwaar paalwerk, met
yzeren bouten aan een geklonken, waaraan zy vast lagen, uit den grond
rukkende, van hunne ankers dreeven, WAGEN., Amst. 1, 736 a. Om hem
(Alva) te vernederen, noemt men ook de groote palen Ducdalven, die door
vier of zes andere ondersteund, in diepe wateren staan, en geschikt
zijn, om groote scheepstouwen om vast te slaan, en op een' afstand
gezien eenigzins de gedaante hebben van een mager menschenhoofd, dat uit
een' Spaanschen mantel steekt, terwijl dit ondertusschen voorwerpen
zijn, die met geene achting behandeld en geheel niet ontzien worden,
LOOSJES, Lijnsl. 1, 381. Deze paardelijnen of kabeltouwen ... worden
vastgemaakt op dus genoemde ducd'alven, zijnde zware in den grond
geheide of gegravene palen, MOSSEL, Manoeuvres 258. Daar krielde het van
tjalken en sloepen, van boeijers en jollen en gieken, de eenen
vastgesjord aan den wal, de anderen in het midden der rivier voor anker
liggend, de meesten ... aan de stevige ducdalven bevestigd, BUSKEN HUET,
Lidew. 1, 88. Het inheien van ... dukdalven, Alg. Voorschr. 1901, § 194.

---endquote

Regards,
Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 02:59:53 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:59:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.185953.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

At 17:00 25/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:

>Anyway, this is why language isn't transmitted through a passive
>medium like TV. If it were, then surely British women of all ages
>would be speaking a mixture of Cockney, Manky and Scouse by now?
>Linguistic maps show language change occurring along trunk roads
>and railways, hence cities taking up on the permanent changes
>more quickly than country areas.

It would be good if Sandy was right about this, but I have my doubts,
and I'm not the only one. If Sandy is right, then minority language
campaigners in many places are labouring under a massive
misunderstanding. Some people have fought long and hard to get
a decent TV service, in some cases (such as with Welsh, for
example) threatening to starve themselves to death unless their
demands were met. If it's true that language isn't transmitted (I
do like the pun) through TV, then any such sacrifice would have been
for nothing.

I've been waiting for any British women here to comment on the
implication that they only watch those programmes where "Cockney,
Manky and Scouse" are used (for anyone who doesn't know, the
programmes concerned are soap operas) but perhaps there aren't any
among our readers. That aside, I think it's reasonable to say that the
dominant form of language on TV is what is often called "BBC
English", and I also don't think anyone can reasonably doubt that
this is the direction towards which language in the UK has been moving
at least since TV started in the middle of the last century.

I think Sandy actually undermines his argument with his comment, which
I didn't quote above, that "it takes a conscious effort to keep
moving words from ones passive to ones active vocabulary". I suggest
that people *will* make that conscious effort, if an incentive is
there for them to do so. I also suggest that such an incentive
does exist, in that BBC English is a prestige variety, and everyone
knows it.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 03:03:03 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:03:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (05) [E/S]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.190303.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning"

Colin wrote:

> My suggestion of "composite Scots" was only that, a suggestion,
> and there may be better alternatives such as those that have since
> been suggested here. However, I do think we need to lose the
> description "synthetic" because, to many people nowadays, it just
> means "bogus".

A gree wi ye on that ane!

Andy Eagle

------------

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

At 07:24 23/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>because it will be unbelievably confusing to try to
>teach people Modern Scots without some written
>material, and that written material must be consistent
>(you can change the system after a generation, but
>it's no good tampering with it every year). This means
>a form of 'Composite' or 'General' Scots is required
>urgently, and that it must be agreed with Scotland
>otherwise we'll end up having to do our own materials
>on either side of the North Channel

I understand Ian James Parsley's argument here, although I don't
necessarily agree with every point of it. It is possible to
teach a laanguage without a set standard: one obvious example is
Scottish Gaelic, where a set orthographic convention is taught,
but in other respects teachers and pupils use local language
features freely.

However, if the Ulster Scots lobby choose to approach the Scottish
authorities about this, although I wish them well I suspect that
they would find that the Scottish Education Department (does
anyone know whether the name has changed since self-government?)
has neither the interest nor the budget to co-operate in such a
venture.

However, one step toward the existence of a 'Composite' or 'General'
Scots was taken a few years ago, when Alasdair Allan wrote his
Ph.D thesis (1998) on the whole issue of language planning for Scots,
and devoted a large part of the work on the question of
"standardisation" (perhaps we'd better say "composition"). I had
the chance to read it in an unfinished form, and on that basis I
can say that anyone with an interest in this area could do much worse
than start by reading Allan's thesis.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 16:42:26 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:42:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.FEB.2001.084226.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (05) [E/S]

Colin,

Well, I wonder if we're not already down-playing the
achievements made so far by Scots. We have the
'Grammar Broonie', 'Doadie's Bodie' and a whole Scots
course (written by Sheila Douglas) which would be
ideal for schools, as well as 'the Kist' of course.
The real problem is not that the products don't exist,
but that they are not marketed properly (no criticism
meant here - marketing takes initial capital as well).

The issue is that there is little benefit in having
all these things available, if there is not some
agreement on a 'General Scots'. As you suggest, this
would be nothing like as rigid a standard as 'BBC
English' or the French of the Academie Francaise,
merely a set of agreed orthographic guidelines which
could be reviewed after 20 years.

Of course, agreement on these issues is rare - usually
it simply takes one major work (such as a Bible
Translation - although even that wasn't enough in our
case!) whose spellings become widely adopted.

With kind regards,
Ian
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 16:54:02 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:54:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.FEB.2001.085402.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/LS]

Geachte Lowlanders,

Dukdalven kan ook voorkomen van duikdelven, dus onder water uitgevoerde
delfwerken om meerpalen te heien. Dat deze dukdalven dan ver achteraf, in
de
Spaanse tijd, vergeleken werden met Alva lijkt me zeer gewoon.

Het is opvallend hoe rijk het Nederlands is aan woorden; er bestaan maar
weinig woorden uit andere talen die men er niet in terugvindt. Niet voor
niets bezit het Nederlands het grootste woordenboek ter wereld; het WNT,
dat
werkt met 38.000.000 woorden en men is nog volop bezig met woorden te
verzamelen. Bovendien is er in het Nederlands een merkwaardige samenhang
van
woorden die men bij andere talen nooit zover doorgedreven kan terugvinden,
wat tot gevolg heeft dat het Nederlands een ideale testtaal is voor het
achterhalen of twee verschillende, maar op elkaar gelijkende woorden, wel
uit eenzelfde woordkern voortkomen, bij voorbeeld het geval met de woorden:

> Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'to dip', 'to bathe', 'to duck'

> the Low Saxon (Low German) cognate /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N]
> 'to duck', 'to dive (under water, not into the water)',

- duiken, duik, duiker, doken, onderduiken, dukdalven (duikdelven), enz.
- dijk, de dijker, dijkdeven, induiken, buitendijks, dijkgraaf, (le
dyckgraef), enz.
- diep, uitdiepen, verdiepen, opdiepen, ondiep, het diep, Dieppe, enz.
- bad, baden, bading, enz.
- delven, gedolven, dijkdelver, enz.
- dunken, me dunkt dat ..., = onderkennen!, een hoge dunk, dunk zoals duik
heeft maken met onder-, onderwater en onderverstaen.

De Nederlandse vergelijkende woordenschat is werkelijk oeverloos en die is
er niet zo maar vanzelf gekomen; het is het gevolg van een voorgeschiedenis

die in de laatste drie eeuwen werd vernietigd, doodgezwegen, verschreven,
en
"gediaboliseerd", uit schrik voor wat ???

Met achtingsvolle groetenf

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/LS]

Reiner Brauckmann wrote

> > Düeset Waterbauweärks es erfunnen worn van Hertog d'Alba.
> > Borüm  de Lüe denn de besunnere Anordnung van Pöhle und Pöste
> > im Water Dalben nömt weit ek nit.

Roger Thijs quoted from the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal):

> 2) In een vaarwater staande zware paal, gesteund door drie tot zes
> symmetrisch geplaatste schoorpalen. || Duckdalf. Een hooft van zware
> palen in 't water geslagen, daer men schepen aen belegt, en vast maekt,
> 't geen zijn naem behout van den Hertogh van Alva ..., die insgelijcks
> hart en onverzettelijck was, als dit paelwerk, WITSEN, Scheepsb. 489 b.

Earlier, I mentioned remembering a connection between the word dukdalf and
the Duc d'Alve. Roger ans Reiner suggest the same. The 'Etymologisch
Woordenboek' by dr. J. De Vries however gives the following:

'dukdalf: een nl-fries woord, dat men wel in verband wil brengen met duc
d'Alve, dus de naam van de hertog van Alva. Ten hoogste kan men aannemen
dat
deze naam invloed op het woord heeft uitgeoefend, maar het is weinig
waarschijnlijk, dat voor dit scheepvaartwoord zulk een naam zou zijn
gekozen. Bovendien komt het reeds in 1581 in Emden als dükdalben voor.
Misschien een reïnterpretatie van een ouder woord'.

regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Marco hett ziteert/quoted:

> 'dukdalf: een nl-fries woord, dat men wel in verband wil brengen met duc
> d'Alve, dus de naam van de hertog van Alva. Ten hoogste kan men aannemen
dat
> deze naam invloed op het woord heeft uitgeoefend, maar het is weinig
> waarschijnlijk, dat voor dit scheepvaartwoord zulk een naam zou zijn
> gekozen. Bovendien komt het reeds in 1581 in Emden als dükdalben voor.
> Misschien een reïnterpretatie van een ouder woord'.

Dat is akraat dey braden, den ik by dat verklaren vun wegen "Hertog vun
Alba" raken har.

That's precisely the rat I've been smelling ever since I heard of this
"Duke of Alba" thing.

Gröyten/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 00:28:59 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:28:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.FEB.2001.162859.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

At 08:42 27/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Well, I wonder if we're not already down-playing the
>achievements made so far by Scots. We have the
>'Grammar Broonie', 'Doadie's Bodie' and a whole Scots
>course (written by Sheila Douglas) which would be
>ideal for schools, as well as 'the Kist' of course.

I wasn't seeking to downplay these achievements and, if it seemed
as if I was, then I'm glad that there's been the chance to clarify
matters.

>The real problem is not that the products don't exist,
>but that they are not marketed properly (no criticism
>meant here - marketing takes initial capital as well).

Yes, agreed.

>The issue is that there is little benefit in having
>all these things available, if there is not some
>agreement on a 'General Scots'. As you suggest, this
>would be nothing like as rigid a standard as 'BBC
>English' or the French of the Academie Francaise,
>merely a set of agreed orthographic guidelines which
>could be reviewed after 20 years.

Personally, I'd be all for this, but it's surprising how much
opposition even this suggestion attracts. Some of it comes from creative
writers who think (maybe "imagine" would be a better word) that their
work will be judged negatively if it doesn't conform to the guidelines.
I don't think that's especially likely myself, but if it does then
(as far as I'm concerned) that's just hard luck, as there are more
important issues at stake.

On the other hand, there is also opposition from other quarters, and
there's a good example from the academic, C. I. Macafee, in her
article "Leave the Leid Alane" is the most recent edition of "Lallans"
magazine.

>Of course, agreement on these issues is rare - usually
>it simply takes one major work (such as a Bible
>Translation - although even that wasn't enough in our
>case!) whose spellings become widely adopted.

I can think of a number of reasons why Lorimer's orthography hasn't
passed into general acceptance, some of them circumstancial and some
of them practical. First, Lorimer's translation of the New Testament
doesn't see a great deal of use in churches, even in the most densely
Scots-speaking areas, possibly because it is just that - the New
Testament, rather than the entire Bible. Also, the churches simply
don't have the influence that they used to, in an age when church-
going is the exception rather than the norm. Finally there is the
practical matter, that Lorimer's orthography uses diacritic marks,
which very few keyboards in Scotland have.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 00:30:31 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:30:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.FEB.2001.163031.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language contacts"

> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
>
> At 17:00 25/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:
>
> >Anyway, this is why language isn't transmitted through a passive
> >medium like TV. If it were, then surely British women of all ages
> >would be speaking a mixture of Cockney, Manky and Scouse by now?
> >Linguistic maps show language change occurring along trunk roads
> >and railways, hence cities taking up on the permanent changes
> >more quickly than country areas.
>
> It would be good if Sandy was right about this, but I have my doubts,
> and I'm not the only one. If Sandy is right, then minority language
> campaigners in many places are labouring under a massive
> misunderstanding. Some people have fought long and hard to get
> a decent TV service, in some cases (such as with Welsh, for
> example) threatening to starve themselves to death unless their
> demands were met. If it's true that language isn't transmitted (I
> do like the pun) through TV, then any such sacrifice would have been
> for nothing.

Not at all. Bear in mind that what I said above was in
response to the idea that centralised TV was changing
the speech of people in other areas. This is what I'm
saying isn't true.

On the other hand, as I've said before when discussing
Welsh TV, television in the local language does cause
people to assign higher status to their own language
and does give them an opportunity to improve it if they
so wish. It's still all to do with what I was saying -
people only change their way of speaking if they have
motivation.

> I've been waiting for any British women here to comment on the
> implication that they only watch those programmes where "Cockney,
> Manky and Scouse" are used (for anyone who doesn't know, the
> programmes concerned are soap operas) but perhaps there aren't any

I never said that anybody watched only these programmes.
But it's easily enough observed that even the most avid
fans of Coronation Street &c don't, in the long term, pick
up anything in their own speech that would suggest that
they did watch those programmes.

> among our readers. That aside, I think it's reasonable to say that the
> dominant form of language on TV is what is often called "BBC
> English", and I also don't think anyone can reasonably doubt that
> this is the direction towards which language in the UK has been moving
> at least since TV started in the middle of the last century.

I do doubt it, if you mean to say that this language is
picked up from television. My father watches the news and
many other topical programmes every day, for example, and
still has considerable difficulty talking anything other
than his native Scots. In fact the dominance of standard
English arises from its use in the education system and
from migration.

For example, the death of Scots in Glasgow in the early
20th century was a result of an immigrant English and
Irish workforce, not television. Glasgow was heavily
anglicised long before the widespread availability of
TV in Scotland.

Again, Scots speakers who wilfully use English in the
midst of other Scots speakers are normally conscious of
their professional standing, eg nurses, teachers,
managers &c and the fact that this is how they're
expected to speak in work. It's certainly not from a
desire to sound like a BBC newsreader!

> From: Pat Reynolds [pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
>
> Possibly not counting as a 'significant' change, a study in Milton
> Keynes (Bucks) about ten years ago (I think) found that young people
> were speaking what you'ld expect - except they'd got a few Australian
> vowel sounds, picked up from soaps.

I've heard of this particular study, but as I said, this
does happen with young people. I don't think this study
tells us anything useful about language change because it
doesn't establish whether this sort of change is lasting
or, like dudespeak in England, just a fad.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 16:06:08 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:06:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.080608.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: rudi [rudi at its.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (05)

Hallo Ron
I have been following the several discussions going on LL-L - most
interesting.
It's time I stopped lurking and also made a contribution.

Language survival has always been an interesting topic to me - both at the
language level and at a personal level. Having been born in Holland and
emigrating
to South Africa (in 1948), I grew up speaking Dutch and Afrikaans. English was
a
later addition. Where does language survival come in all of this? I spoke (and
still speak) Dutch to my children, siblings and my Dad. My children thus grew
up
in a bilingual home -Afrikaans and Dutch. When pressed, (like when they speak
to
their grandfather) they speak a perfectly acceptable Dutch, but not as fluent
as
they would like. They only speak Afrikaans to each other and Dutch in our
family
will die with them. Is this a case of non survival? Certainly at the
individual
level.

Contrast this with German speaking South Africans who have maintained their
language for up to four generations after immigrating to SA. This, I believe,
is
largely due to their very strong support for the Deutsche Schule. There is one
in
Pretoria, one in Johannesburg and one in Cape Town. Some of your contributors
on
the topic of Scots survival and acceptance, stated that if a language is to
survive, it needs to be spoken at school. I believe that to be true in the
case of
German. One should also not forget the well established and flourishing
Lutheran
Church which conducts its services only in German.

Question: does this phenomenon occur in other countries and other languages?

Another question: What would be the role be that a company like Microsoft
plays in
the arena of language standardisation? As their spelling checkers in a variety
of
languages are ubiquitous, would they not have a disproportionate influence on
language standardisation? Could they (MS) even go so far as to 'dictate'
standards?

Even though I am not a linguist, now that the ice is broken, I will attempt to
participate in your very interesting discussions.

Please keep it up!

Kind regards
Rudi Vari

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Rudi,

Thanks for daring to leave the relative safety of "lurkerhood" ("lurkerdom"?),
and welcome among the contributors.

You seem to be bringing two threads back together again: "Language survival"
and "Language planning."  That's all right, though, because the two are
related.

I think the case can be made that hitherto non-standardized languages,
certainly minority languages, have less of a chance of survival.
Unfortunately, the usual pattern is that there is little more than squabbling
about whether or not a language should undergo planning, and if so then how
and who gets to contribute input, etc., etc.  And by the time all the
squabbling dies down there isn't much of a language left to plan for, because
there has been much squabbling and little or no planning.  In the case of
Scots, there may still be plenty of time to continue the squabbling, because
Scots is still widely spoken and relatively strong.  In the case of Low Saxon
(Low German), time is truly awasting.  There are numerous estimates of speaker
numbers being thrown around, ranging from a handful to 10 million, but for all
intents and purposes, the language is moribund, and only its integration into
formal education can save it, which requires the creation of standards, which
requires some planning ...  But I am afraid people are not going to get their
act together, judging by the way things have been going.

The case of Dutch vs Afrikaans in your family is very interesting to me.  I
wonder if Dutch as a minority language overshadowed by Afrikaans may have
certain disadvantages that contribute to its demise as a family language.  The
two languages are extremely closely related and to a high degree mutually
intelligible.  As pretty much every LL-L subscriber knows, Afrikaans has
stripped itself of most morphological complications; i.e., it has rid itself
of suffixes, gender differences in articles, etc., by way of what may be
considered regularization and simplification.  I can imagine that Dutch seems
like a complicated version of Afrikaans to Afrikaans speakers, and this, I
imagine is an impediment to Afrikaans speakers learning and retaining Dutch.

In my and other people's experience, it is sometimes easier to learn a
language that is or seems unrelated to your own, because you have to learn it
"from the ground up," so to speak.  The more closely a language is related to
and mutually intelligible with your own or a previously studied one, the
harder it is to motivate yourself to learn its rules properly; i.e., you tend
to learn it in a "sloppy" way.  This is a problem I have always had with
learning Dutch and Afrikaans, because my Low Saxon (Low German) and German
background allowed me to understand a lot of them even before I ever made an
effort to improve my passive knowledge of them.  This is also a problem I had
learning additional Turkic languages after having learned Turkish, Uyghur and
Kazakh, which represent the main Turkic groups and allow you to understand
most other Turkic languages without really studying them.  So I wonder if your
children (secretly) perceive Dutch as being "just a bother."  Why speak
complicated when you don't have to and when most people you know don't?

Yes, I agree that formal education in a minority language, like German in
South Africa, probably increases its survival chances.  However, there are
considerable differences between German and Afrikaans, even though they are
related.  Would Dutch have the same survival chances as a minority language
under Afrikaans if there were Dutch schools?  I am inclined to assume that it
would still have more of a struggle.

How about taking a survey among your children about their perceptions and
motivation (or lack of motivation) in this regard (if you can get them to
speak frankly)?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 16:08:03 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:08:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (02) [LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.080803.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 28.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/LS]

Concerning "Duckdalven"

Dat giff een Leed vun Klaas Groth oever "Old Buesum",
in duet Leed giff dat een Stroph dee heet "denn duk de
Toorn herut ut Sand as waer't een Finger vun een
Hand", hier beduet dat meist meer "kiek herut", also
"sticks out", dat pass to den ersten Deel vun
Duckdalven, awer wat "dalven" beduet, dat weet ik ni.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 20:11:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:11:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "All is well" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.121118.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 28.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: All is well ... so far

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]

Hallo!
Wi hebbt hier in Seattle jüst 'n grötter Eerdbeven hatt (6,4 Richter), as Ji
dat sachs al höört hebbt.  Ik bün hier up de Arbaid up'n 5. Böön west, un dat
was bannig gresig.  Ja, mien Hannen sünd noch tatterig ...  Ji schöölt weten,
dat bi mi Allens in de Reeg' is.
Beste Gröten,
Reinhard/Ron

Hi!
As you may have heard already, we just had a fairly strong earthquake (6.5 on
the Richter Scale) here in Seattle.  I was here at work on the 5th floor, and
it was quite scary.  Yes, my hands are still shaking ... This is to let you
know that I am all right.
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 20:59:08 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:59:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "All is well" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.125908.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 28.FEB.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: All is well ... so far

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]

Leve Lüüd',
Ik dank för de privaten Emails, ook för dé vun us Liddmaten in us Rebeed
(Staat Washington un Provinz Brietsch Kolumbien), dé alltohoop so as ik
verfraren sünd.  Nu is künnig maakt worren, dat dat 'n Eerdbeven vun 7,0 up de
Richter-Skala west is.  Dat is deep in de Eer west.  Anners wöör 't so west as
in Kobe, Japan ...
Beste Gröten,
Reinhard/Ron

Folks,
Thanks for the private messages, also for those from our subscribers in this
general area (State of Washington and the Province of British Columbia), all
of whom seem to have gotten as scared as I did.  They just reported that the
quake has been upgraded to 7.0 on the Richter Scale.  It was quite deep.
Otherwise it would have been like the one in Kobe, Japan ...
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 16:36:29 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:36:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 01.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.FEB.2001.083629.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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 =======================================================================
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: David Wilson [scots.whacan at virgin.net]
Subject: FRISIAN at the University of Amsterdam

Just a brief reminder....

From: Gorter <<mailto:dgorter at fa.knaw.nl>dgorter at fa.knaw.nl>
To: UvA-Frysk <<mailto:Uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl>Uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Frisian at the university of Amsterdam

Dear colleague,

The Dean of the Faculty of Humanities of the Universiteit van Amsterdam
proposes to close down the study programme in Frisian. The Dean wants to
'exchange' Frisian against Modern-Greek at the State University of
Groningen. If these plans are implemented, it means that one can study the
Frisian language at university level in only one place in the Netherlands.

    When you agree with us that this is an ill-fated plan that has to be
removed as quickly as possible, please send a letter or an email to the
Board of
the Universiteit van Amsterdam
<mailto:mstorm at bdu.uva.nl>mstorm at bdu.uva.nl> as well as to the Dean
of the Facultyof Humanities
<mailto:bestuur.decaan.gw at hum.uva.nl>bestuur.decaan.gw at hum.uva.nl>.
When you want to know more, please contact us. (Please also send a copy of
your reaction to one of us).
We want to thank you in advance for your support.

Sincerely,
Prof dr Ph.H.Breuker
Prof dr D. Gorter

Email: <mailto:uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl>uva-frysk at fa.knaw.nl
postal address: Oplieding Frysk, P.O. Box 54, 8900 AB Ljouwert/Leeuwarden,
The Netherlands

Postal addresses of the University:
Board of the Universiteit van Amsterdam, Spui 21, 1012 WX Amsterdam, The
Netherlands

 Dean Faculty of Humanities, Prof dr K. van der Toorn, Spuistraat 134,
1012 VB Amsterdam, The Netherlands

----------------------------------------------------------------
                            Nicholas   Ostler
                                President
               Foundation for Endangered Languages
                   Registered Charity 1070616

            Batheaston Villa,  172 Bailbrook Lane
              Bath           BA1 7AA        England
         +44-1225-85-2865 fax +44-1225-85-9258
                  nostler at chibcha.demon.co.uk
                      http://www.ogmios.org
        http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Philosophy/CTLL/FEL/

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 18:26:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:26:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 01.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.FEB.2001.102654.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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 =======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 01.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

A chairde,

It was with abject deject horror and dismayed despair
that I read the proposal to "barter" Frisian for
Modern Greek at the State University of Groningen.
Such an action is detrimental and destrcutive to the
propogation of Frisian, and, by extension to both the
Frisian-speaking community and Frisians in general.
Too often has cool rationale led to the "inevitable
and necessary" extirpation by stealth of our
languages. I represent Cornish and Irish Gaelic; how
many other languages, Lowland languages yet, are
expected to keep quiet, die on the tongue, and be
buried without a linguistic gravestone?

Language preservation is not the key. That is a false
nostalgia that can serve only to destroy a language
and ensure its inferiority to a superstrate "killer
tongue" such as English. It will be remembered that
language is, above all else, a means for communication
between human beings. Everything else associated with
language is secondary - even nation, pride,
self-esteem, and so forth. A language is a motion of
the tongue and, as such, a part of being human. And so
to quietly deny the right of a language to be spoken,
or to make it as difficult as possible to speak a
language, or to relegate the language through bizarre
imperialist convention is not "language death" - it is
language murder.

And how much language murder have we seen? How much
blood crusts the vowels and consonants of English, or
French, or Castillian? While we have the chance, and
the choice, and the freedom to act, we cannot allow
Frisian to be railroaded to a siding and left to rust,
a disused vehicle. Because to do that is to denigrate
Frisian speakers and disenfranchise them of their
fundamental human rights. Let not Frisian become Ubyk,
dying away on an old man's lonely lips - let it live,
let it explode with verve down Frisian streets, from
Frisian children, in Frisian schools, in Frisian
homes; above all, let not Frisian be left to a
hearth-fate, private language, coveted by a few who
have to switch to Dutch in the wider world context.
Frisian needs as many outlets for its propogation as
it can: that means all the schools; all the homes; all
the Universities; the hospitals, the streets, the
churches, the mosques, the synagogues, everywhere.

So how should we go about doing this? If you've read
this far you're probably convinced that I'm an
eccentric linguistic polemicist, an out-of-date
extremist ideologue, washed-up on history and atavism.
Not so. What I want is for all of us on Lowlands-L to
use our collective will and whatever influence we have
to pool our support for Lowland languages. We can't
really afford to argue and procrastinate over whether
one of us is a little more energied and vigoured in
his resistance than the rest. All support is support
nonetheless and must be pooled.

Petitions, pickets if you live in Fryslan, deluge of
protest snail and e-mail to the occupation Ministry in
the Netherlands, vituperate indignation to the r?gime
in Ljouwert. What is the remit of the Fryslan
government? Is it to protect Frysk and Frisian
culture? If it is, then it is destroying its own
validity in allowing Greek to replace Frysk at a
University. Greek has hundreds of courses, and
thousands of learners. What of Frysk? Is there a
Department of Frisian at the University of Athens, or
Lefkosia? There isn't. Frisian is a phenomenon that
cannot, will not and should not be stifled.

Look at Cornish. Look at Polabian. Look at Euskara and
at Irish. Look at G?idhlig. Look at Manx. Look, and
see the morgue of languages. Look, and realise that
all threats - such as disposession of Frysk from a
University - are but bullets in the pistol to the
language murderer.

And do we want to stand idly by? It starts with
Universities, and ends with lonely dying speakers,
reminiscing on what should have and could have been.
If only we could have tried that little bit harder
whilst we had the chance.

We have that chance. Prepare your e-mails and your
slate mail. But most of all, don't give in. Take the
power Frisian needs and retain the power it already
has. Extirpation of language is an extirpation of a
people; and all people are human beings. Would you
collude in the denial of human rights?

Go raibh m?le maith agaibh,

Cr?ost?ir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language policies

Below is a copy of my letter of appeal.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:41:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. F. Hahn" <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Frisian Studies Program
To: Dean <bestuur.decaan.gw at hum.uva.nl>, Board <mstorm at bdu.uva.nl>
CC: European Bureau of Lesser Used Languages - Dublin <eblul at indigo.ie>,
European Bureau of Lesser Used Languages - Brussels <eblul at eblul.org>, Fryske
Akademy <fa at fa.knaw.nl>, Omrop Frysl?n <redaksje at omropfryslan.nl>

Dear Dean and Members of the Board,

It is with great alarm that I received the news that you are considering
closing the Frisian Studies Program at the University of Amsterdam.  I would
like to appeal to you to dismiss any such plans.

As you well know, Frisian is one of the official languages of the Netherlands
(and of Germany).  For this reason alone, opportunities for study and research
of it (and of Low Saxon) ought to be available at more than one of the
country's institutions.  One ought to assume that it has a secure place at the
most important institution of learning and research of the country's largest
city, a hub in a country that enjoys a global reputation of being exemplary,
forward-thinking and happily homogeneous.

Frisian and Low Saxon in addition to Dutch are mainstays of the Netherlands'
native ethnic and linguistic diversity, which is clearly an asset and which
ought to be cherished, promoted and represented internationally as a part of
the country's image.  Removing the Frisian Studies Program from your
university would send a contrary signal internationally.  Furthermore, it
would signal to the international community of users, learners and researchers
of Frisian that the object of their love and interest is inconsequential, even
in the very country in which it is used.

Disregard and neglect have been consistent themes of the history of Frisian
(as of Low Saxon), being a minority language everywhere.  Those of us who
advocate and support continued use and research of Frisian (and of Low Saxon)
had thought that we were entering a better, kinder, more considerate and
enlightened era with the ratification of the European Languages Charter and
with the reemergence of Frisian (and Low Saxon) language awareness and pride.
News of the impending removal of the Frisian Studies Program from your
institution thus appears to be ill advised and regressive.  I therefore ask
you and your colleagues to dismiss this plan and to provide Frisian Studies a
secure place.

Thank you very much for your kind consideration.

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Seattle, USA
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 15:24:23 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:24:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 02.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.FEB.2001.072423.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 21.DEC.2000 (06) [E]

Hello all,

John Feather asked (in December already!):
Since my Greek is not up to much, may I have an explanation of the
translation, > 'eiapopeia, polei'

Wahrig's Deutsches W?rterbuch says "eia pop eia" means:
"wohlan, ha, wohlan".

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 15:36:26 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:36:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 02.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.FEB.2001.073626.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 Sorry, this went out under the wrong subject line.  RFH
 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Folklore" LOWLANDS-L, 21.DEC.2000 (06) [E]

Hello all,

John Feather asked (in December already!):
Since my Greek is not up to much, may I have an explanation of the
translation, > 'eiapopeia, polei'

Wahrig's Deutsches W?rterbuch says "eia pop eia" means:
"wohlan, ha, wohlan".

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 21:29:10 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:29:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.132910.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Catherine Buma [cpunzy at hotmail.com]
Subject: Frisian Language

All

Before I begin, I'd like to compliment Lowlands-L on being a quality
discussion group.  I've not seen a bit of pettiness or lack of
professionalism that seems to earmark so many other groups.  Keep up the
good work!

I have two questions really but they are both closely related so hopefully
they belong in the same posting. The first is concerning the number of
Frisian speakers that exist today, (By Frisian I am referring to 'West'
Frisian, not Sater or East).  I keep seeing the number 400 000 bandied
about
but I was wondering if this total takes into account the number of emigres
that exist worldwide or if this is just the Netherlands.

My second query is a bit of a curiosity.  I am aware that during the late
1940's and 1950's many Frisians emigrated to Canada, the US, New Zealand,
and Australia, (my parents were among this number, Canada being their
choice).  However, my mother mentioned that there was a region somewhere in

Russia, she wasn't sure where, that spoke fluent Frisian.  Growing up she
was always told to remember to pray for their fellow Frisians in the
Netherlands and Russia.  In fact, she mentioned that a close family friend,

who speaks Frisian himself, claims that his great-grandparents were Frisian

speakers from Russia. Has anyone heard anything about this?  Was this
merely
a group of Frisians who moved to Russia during the 1950's emigration or
does
it predate this time?

If anyone knows anything about this, please drop a line.  I am very
curious.

Thanks

Catherine Buma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 21:27:44 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:27:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.132744.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: historical backgrounds

I like old stuff, and this Saturday on the Brussels flee marked I got,
for a few dimes, a book from 1809:
- no author (may have to do with the French occupation)
- title: "Antiquitates Belgicae of Nederlandsche Oudheden... nieuwen
druk, vermeerderd met land-beschrijvings aenteekeningen..."
- printed: Tot Gend by C. J. Fernand, Boekdrukker, te Putte (I see a
contradiction between Ghent and Putte, I guess the printing place may be
false)

The date may be correct. The split-up of Westphalia is described in
detail, up to the treaty of Tilsit of July 9, 1807, as well as the
internal subdivisions of Dec 14 1807 (pp. 224-225)

The names for the Northern and Southern Netherlands (The North is still
a bit independent at the time):
- for the North:: De Vereenigde Provintien (follows the list of old
provinces, and the new departments of the kingdom of Holland since May
1806)
- for the South, the former "Katholyk Nederland of Nederlandsche
Provintien" (follows in some detail the old provinces and their division
into the new French  departments) (p. 12-13)

Comment: This odd name-giving is consistent with other sources from the
same period:
cf. on a map of Germany in the English edition of the Atlas historique
by Las Cases (1802-1804):
- the actual Belgium is called "Netherlands"
- the actual Netherlands is called "Holland"
(map reproduced on p. 36 in J. Black, Maps and history, Yale, 2000)

Back to the old book:
Where it may be rather correct for the actual politico-geographical
situation of the time, it is quite original on some historical matters:
(Many of you will damn it to trash; I'm sorry to have a somehow
different taste and admire what others dislike and "litter on flee
markets")

The Alsatians are also Saxons: "Edel-saxen":
quote p. 59:
... gelyk de Saxen, die een land, eertyds geheel boschagtig, bezaten,
waer van de Holt-Saxen (dat is Hout-Saxen) geheeten zyn, waer van het
zelve land nog in 't latyn Holsatia genoemt word; en de gene, die
_Edel-Saxen_ genoemt waeren, hebben den naem van Elsas, in 't latyn
Alsatia, aen hunne woon-plaets gegeven.

The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:
quote p.62
... Als Justus Lipsius van den oorsprong des naems der Saxen redekavelt,
... zegt ook, dat het werktuyg, waer mede men hier te lande het gras
afmaeyt, geheeten word een zeyssen, en de korte zweerden, die de oude
Saxen eertyds plegen te draegen, die zy seaxen noemden, waeren krom op
de wys van eene zeyssen, hebbende de snede op de omgekeerde buytenste
zyde, gelyk men zien kan in 't schild van den ouden Oost-Saxen koning
Erkinwyn, die dry van deze korte kromme zweirden of seaxen van zilver in
een rood veld voerde.

I spare you all the whole story of the origin of the Saxons,
an excerpt, p. 74:
Saxons of Saxen - De Saxen, een volk van de Schyten afkomstig, zyn uyt
Asia vertrokken ... etc.
... genaemt Sacae of Saci, een strydbaer en trots volk, dat den
groot-magtigen en brood-dronken koning Xerxes gedient heeft in de
ongehoorde, zwaere maer ongelukkigen krygs-togt tegen de Grieken...
etc... etc...

The origin of the Picts is also very clear (you just have to understand
some Dutch),
quote p. 75
De Picten - Dit is een volk, dat, als in het gemeen geloofd word, uyt
Schyti?n in Schotland gekomen zyn, alwaer zy woon-plaets en verbond met
de Schotten maekten. Zommige schryvers bevestigen, dat zy, in Denemerken
komende, den naem van Picten kregen, om dat zy _picti_, dat is geverwt
waeren aen hunne naekten lichaemen, en zy de Orcadische eylanden voor-by
zeylende, zit-plaets namen omtrent Fida en Landonia, naer dat-ze de
vreede of wilde Britten verdreven hadden. Daer naer namen zy Schotsche
vrouwen, en maekten met hun een verbond, en zoo is met verloop van tyd
een volk daer uyt geworden.

etc etc

Shall I return the book to trash?

Regards,

Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 00:01:09 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:01:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.160109.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

Dear Lowlanders,

Roger Thijs wrote:

> 6. Egidiuslied
>
> This is a very old one, in old Dutch. De Standaard spells ij as ij, I'm
> used to see it spelled y, with the y pronounced as i (Nobody knows what
> variations of pronounciation it exactly had in it's time, I guess)
>
> It's about a soldier mourning about his fallen mate.
>
> Some modernisations for better understanding:
> bleven:              gebleven
> mi lanct na di:    Ik verlang naar jou
> Du coors:         Jij koos
> sneven:             sneuvelen
>
> ---
>
> Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
>
> Dat was gheselscap goet ende fijn.
> Net sceen teen moeste ghestorven sijn.
> Nu bestu in den troon verheven
> Claerre dan der zonnen scijn,
> Alle vruecht es di ghegeven.
>
> Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
>
> Nu bidt vor mi: ic moet noch sneven
> Ende in de weerelt liden pijn.
> Verware mijn stede di beneven:
> Ic moet noch zinghen een liedekijn.
> Nochtan moet emmer ghestorven sijn.
>
> Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.

As I am writing to you I am listening to my own copy of the following CD:

Paul Rans Ensemble, _Egidius waer bestu bleven: Gruuthuse Manuscript ca.
1380 - ca. 1390_, Eufora (1170), 1992. (Total 75'07")

I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in precontemporary Dutch
(or generally Lowlandic) poetry and music.  I enjoy these renditions
tremendously.  By the way, the lyrics are fairly easily understood my those
who understand Low Saxon, more easily than are Modern Dutch lyrics,
including Modern Flemish ones (though the latter tend to be easier than the
former).

The contexts:

01.  Wi willen van den kerels zinghen
02.  De capelaen van Hoedelem
03.  Mijn herte es sonder cnoop gheletst
04.  Comes Flandriae (Brugge, ca. 1381)
05.  God gheve ons eenen bliden wert
06.  Scinc her den wijn
07.  So wie bi nachte gherne vliecht
08.  Het was een rudder wael ghedaen
09.  Mijn hertze en can verbliden niet
10.  Ach zich voor dich
11.  Het soude een scamel mersenier
12.  Ic sach een scuerduere open staen
13.  De vedele es van so zoeter aert
14.  Wel op, elc zondich si bereit
15.  Dits een rondeel (Hulthem Ms, ca. 1380)
16.  Egidius waer bestu bleven
17.  Aluette voghel clein
18.  Ach Vlaendere (Thomas Fabri, ca. 1412)
19.  Melancolie
20.  Een wijf van reinen zeden
21.  Nieuwe jaer haet mich verhuecht

(Could 09, 10 and 21 be Limburgish?)

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 01:51:48 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:51:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.175148.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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  =======================================================================

From: Reuben Epp [repp at silk.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

> From: Catherine Buma [cpunzy at hotmail.com]
> Subject: Frisian Language
>
> All
>
> My second query is a bit of a curiosity.  I am aware that during the late

> 1940's and 1950's many Frisians emigrated to Canada, the US, New Zealand,

> and Australia, (my parents were among this number, Canada being their
> choice).  However, my mother mentioned that there was a region somewhere
in
> Russia, she wasn't sure where, that spoke fluent Frisian.  Growing up she

> was always told to remember to pray for their fellow Frisians in the
> Netherlands and Russia.  In fact, she mentioned that a close family
friend,
> who speaks Frisian himself, claims that his great-grandparents were
Frisian
> speakers from Russia. Has anyone heard anything about this?  Was this
> merely a group of Frisians who moved to Russia during the 1950's
> emigration or does it predate this time?
>
> If anyone knows anything about this, please drop a line.  I am very
> curious.
> Thanks
> Catherine Buma

Dear Catherine and Lowlanders,

Your comments re Frisian in Russia sound like they are related to
Netherlandic Mennonites (Doopsgezinde) in Russia.

During the latter half of the 1500's many Anabaptists (Mennonites) left
the Frisian provinces of West Friesland, Groningen and East Friesland
to seek greater religious freedom for their unpopular Anabaptist beliefs.
They then spoke a mixture of Frisian, Low Franconian, Low Saxon
and Dutch dialects.

At that time, they settled in the Vistula/Nogat delta and Danziger
Werder of  West Prussia/Poland, where their dyke-building and
land-drainage skills and expertise were much in demand for reclamation
of the delta swamps for agriculture. They sojourned there for about
250 years, during which time their western Low Saxon/Low Franconian
dialects were replaced by the West Prussian Low Saxon dialect spoken
by their surrounding neighbours, a dialect that later came to be known
as Plautdietsch.

Before and after 1800, large numbers of them emigrated from Prussia
to the New Russia of Catherine the Great; sparsely populated, fertile
lands recently conquered from the Ottoman Empire. In these new
lands, the Mennonites were allowed to establish themselves in closed
villages where everyone spoke Plautdietsch.

Since then, those Mennonites have moved willingly or under
compulsion into various other regions of the former USSR (Russia),
including villages and settlements near Novosibirsk in Siberia, and
elsewhere. In those villages, Plautdietsch continued to be their daily
language. A few of those villages continue to exist today, although
greatly reduced in population numbers by emigration to Germany
of large numbers of them (100,000?) in recent decades. In Germany,
they are/were looked upon as German returnees (Heimkehrer)
because of their lengthy sojurn in Prussia, during which they had
adopted (in Prussia and Russia) the German language for worship
and written communication, while retaining their Prussian Low
Saxon dialect in daily speech.

Dr. Tjeerd de Graaf and student Rogier Nieuweboer, of the
University of Groningen, have written quite extensively about these
Mennonites since visiting and researching them in Siberia. Both
emphasize that appearances, customs and spoken word of the
Siberian Mennonites remind of their Frisian origins. De Graaf is
Frisian himself.

Perhaps these are the *Frisian* people that you have heard about
in Russia?
Cheers!
Reuben Epp

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 04:06:00 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:06:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.FEB.2001.200600.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 04.FEB.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Catherine Buma [cpunzy at hotmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

>Perhaps these are the *Frisian* people that you have heard about
>in Russia?
>Cheers!
>Reuben Epp

Reuben (and other Lowlanders)

Thank you for the reply; it was very informative.

The only aspect of the conversation that I had with my mother that seems to

throw a little doubt as to this theory being the answer to my question is
the following:

My mother was aware that Mennonites existed in Russia, (or thereabouts) but

stressed that the Frisians in Russia that she was referring to spoke fluent

Frisian.

Then again perhaps it is the story of the Mennonites in Russia that got
exaggerated by the Frisian community here in Canada, qui sais?

Thanks again and take care.

Catherine Buma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 19:35:05 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:35:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.FEB.2001.113505.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 05.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Barbara Rentsch-Buschkoetter [rentschbuschkoetter at web.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 04.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Literature
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > 6. Egidiuslied
> >
> > This is a very old one, in old Dutch. De Standaard spells ij as ij, I'm

> > used to see it spelled y, with the y pronounced as i (Nobody knows what

> > variations of pronounciation it exactly had in it's time, I guess)
> >
> > It's about a soldier mourning about his fallen mate.
> >
> > Some modernisations for better understanding:
> > bleven:              gebleven
> > mi lanct na di:    Ik verlang naar jou
> > Du coors:         Jij koos
> > sneven:             sneuvelen
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> > Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> > Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
> >
> > Dat was gheselscap goet ende fijn.
> > Net sceen teen moeste ghestorven sijn.
> > Nu bestu in den troon verheven
> > Claerre dan der zonnen scijn,
> > Alle vruecht es di ghegeven.
> >
> > Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> > Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> > Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.
> >
> > Nu bidt vor mi: ic moet noch sneven
> > Ende in de weerelt liden pijn.
> > Verware mijn stede di beneven:
> > Ic moet noch zinghen een liedekijn.
> > Nochtan moet emmer ghestorven sijn.
> >
> > Egidius waer bestu bleven?
> > Mi lanct na di, gheselle mijn.
> > Du coors die doot, du liets mi tleven.

Dear Ron,
As I've been collecting folksongs since the early 60s, I would be very much

interested in getting the tune for the song, too.

Best regards, Barbara

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

Dear Lowlanders,

I wrote:

> By the way, the lyrics are fairly easily understood my those
> who understand Low Saxon, more easily than are Modern Dutch lyrics,
> including Modern Flemish ones (though the latter tend to be easier than
the
> former).

This was poorly phrased.  What I meant to say was that I, and probably also
most others who understand Low Saxon/Low German of Germany, tend to have an
easier time understanding certain non-standard Dutch/Flemish dialects (of
both Belgium and the Netherlands) than understanding Standard Dutch.  The
medieval dialects of the songs seems particularly easy to my ear, because
Dutch had at that time not yet or not fully undergone /ii/ > /@i/
diphthongization (of what was then written as _i_, _ij_ or _y_.  The singer
pronounces them as [i:] or [Ii].  Thus, e.g., _mijn_ [mi:n] or [mIin] (now
[m at In]), _bi_ [bi:] or [bIi] (now [b at I]); cf. Low Saxon/Low German (_myn_
>) _mien_ [mi:n] and (_by_ >)  _bi(e)_ [bi:] respectively.

Barbara wrote (above):

>  As I've been collecting folksongs since the early 60s,

As have I, though unfortunately most of my collection got lost during one
of my several overseas moves.

> I would be very much
> interested in getting the tune for the song, too.

The CD comes with the words of the songs but unfortunately not with the
musical notation, Barbara.  Hopefully someone else can supply them.  I
would be interested in them too.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 19:40:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:40:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.FEB.2001.114018.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 05.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "History"

Roger Thijs heeft geschreven:
Subject: historical backgrounds

> I like old stuff, and this Saturday on the Brussels flee
> marked I got, for a few dimes, a book from 1809:
> - title: "Antiquitates Belgicae of Nederlandsche Oudheden...

> Back to the old book: Where it may be rather correct for the
> actual politico-geographical
> situation of the time, it is quite original on some historical
> matters

Don't throw that away!  Its history is confused, but it is
historical confusion: it doesn't tell us what was going on 2000
years ago, but it does tell us what people -thought- had been
going on in 1809.  If you don't keep it, give it to a library or
a university!

The science of linguistics (an imperfect science to begin with)
had hardly even begun, so the author was free to indulge in
historical speculation (like the teacher of German I know of who
informed her class that Dachshunds mean "roof dogs"! (Dach =
roof, Hund = hound, but *Dachs* = badger.  She speculated that
they had short legs to walk on roofs, and didn't realize they
were bred to go into badger holes.)

> The Alsatians are also Saxons: "Edel-saxen":
> ... gelyk de Saxen, die een land, eertyds geheel boschagtig,
> bezaten,waer van de Holt-Saxen (dat is Hout-Saxen) geheeten

The author was half-right: Holsten was Holtsaten, and _Holt_
means woods, but a _sata_ meant a sitter/settler (cf. High
German _Insassen_).  By coincidence, Saxon/sahsan/Sachsen came
to be pronounced Sassen in Platt; maybe the author drew a false
connection between de sassesche spraek and words like Insassen.
I don't have any source handy for the origin of the name
Elsass/Alsace.  One researcher did seriously suggest that the
Alemanni (Swiss, Alsatians and Swabes) were indeed Saxons
(Frings early in this century): he noted that both have
Einheitsplural (only one ending, not 2 or 3 different endings
for verb plurals) and Nasalschwund: loss of n (finf > fiif
etc.).  Unfortunately, these features often happen, and the
Alemanni developed these features about a millenium after the
Lowland languages did.

> The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:

Well, _sahs_ did mean short sword, and came to be used for other
cutting tools.  I haven't seen it used to mean sickle, but I
could imagine it eventually was so used.  Does anyone know a
modern word _Sax_ or _Sass_ that means sickle?

> I spare you all the whole story of the origin of the Saxons,
> an excerpt, p. 74:
> Saxons of Saxen - De Saxen, een volk van de Schyten afkomstig,
> zyn uyt Asia vertrokken ... etc. ... genaemt Sacae of Saci

The Romans didn't know what to make of the Germani, and tended
to explain them as a variant of the familiar Scythian barbarians
of Scythia/the Ukraine.  It's since been discovered that the
Scythians were fairly clearly an Iranic people from an entirely
different branch of Indo-European, but into the early 1800's,
that hadn't been clear.

> Shall I return the book to trash?

Mistaken history is still very much history!  Besides, it can
teach us some humility for the mistakes we may make ourselves.

Stefan Jsrael

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 00:52:29 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:52:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.FEB.2001.165229.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 05.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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  =======================================================================
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: offline resources

It was announced some months ago, but I just got my copy today (for HFL
42.50) from the publisher "Van Corcum" in Assen, Nl. of:

Dr. G. H. Kocks, Woordenboek van de Drentse Dialecten, "Register
Nederlands-Drents"
ISBN 90 232 3649 1, xv + 312 pp. (clothbound)
It's a very condensed index (one word - to - just one word lemma's) but
very helpfull,
as the author states, quote in Dutch:
"... Iemand in Zeeland vindt nooit de Drentse woorden voor meisje als
hij niet weet dat hij moet zoeken bij wicht, deern of maagien..."

PS: This Index is a complement to the (Drents - Dutch):
"Woordenboek van de Drentse Dialecten"
by Dr. G. H. Kocks,
van Gorcum, Assen, Nl.
vol 1, A-L, 1996 ISBN 90 232 3176 7, lxix + 703 pp + map (clothbound)
vol 2, M-Z, 1997, ISBN 90 232 3177 5, viii+ pp 705-1504 + map
(clothbound)
set of the 2 vols, ISBN 90 232 3178 3

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Offline resources

Thanks for the excellent information (above), Roger!

I have added the said item under "Modern Low Saxon" and "Dictionaries" to
our "A Beginners' Guide to Offline Language Materials: Low Saxon (Low
German)":

http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/low_saxon_offline.htm

Do you happen to know the prices of the Dutch-Drents volumes?

We have similar resource guides for other Lowlands languages
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/guides_offline.htm).
Additions depend primarily on Lowlands-L subscribers' contributions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 15:39:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:39:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.FEB.2001.073932.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Offline resources
>
> Do you happen to know the prices of the Dutch-Drents volumes?

For the Drents-Dutch volumes:
Prices in the catalogue "Van Gorcum - Fondsenlijst - 2000-2001":

> From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
> "Woordenboek van de Drentse Dialecten"
> by Dr. G. H. Kocks,
> van Gorcum, Assen, Nl.
> vol 1, A-L, 1996 ISBN 90 232 3176 7, lxix + 703 pp + map (clothbound)

HFL 87.50

> vol 2, M-Z, 1997, ISBN 90 232 3177 5, viii+ pp 705-1504 + map
> (clothbound)

HFL 87.50

> set of the 2 vols, ISBN 90 232 3178 3

HFL 139.00

Regards,
Roger

-----

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Offline resources

Thanks, Roger.  I have added this information to the list
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/low_saxon_offline_3.htm).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 15:41:09 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:41:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.FEB.2001.074109.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]

Stefan Israel schreev:
>
>> The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:
>
>Well, _sahs_ did mean short sword, and came to be used for other
>cutting tools.  I haven't seen it used to mean sickle, but I
>could imagine it eventually was so used.  Does anyone know a
>modern word _Sax_ or _Sass_ that means sickle?
>
I only know of Dutch _zeis_ and Low-Saxon _seise_,
other than that, I can't come up with anything.

Henry

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 20:51:05 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:51:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.FEB.2001.125105.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 =======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Events

Dear Lowlanders,

Just now I received a copy of the latest issue of _Dat pommersche Blatt_ of
The Pommerscher Verein, Central Wisconsin.  You can find out more about the
association in the North American section of "Nu is de Welt platt!"
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm).  (Click on
any language button, and choose the North American section.)

Among other things, I found in this issue a language course announcement that
may be interesting to a number of you, especially those that live in North
America and will be able to spend four weeks in October in the Midwest.  You
will find the wording of the announcement farther down.  I have also added it
to the said webpage.  For further information please contact the association
(P.O. Box 358, Wausau, WI  54402-0358, USA; Telephone: 715.359.5189, Fax:
715.359.5816, Email: Zamzow at dwave.net).

Obviously, "Platt" here refers to Low Saxon/Low German.  (It is good news that
it is still spoken in Wisconsin.)  I am not sure, but I assume that the
dialect(s) taught will be Pomeranian.  These dialects, which tend to be
classified as "Eastern Low German" (a catch-all category), are quite similar
to those we know as "North Saxon" (of Northwestern Germany), and there is a
very high degree of mutual comprehension between the two.  Like all Eastern
Low German dialects, the Pomeranian ones have Western Slavic substrates or
influences, both lexical and morphological (e.g., the diminutive suffix _-ing_
~ _-ink_ < Pomeranian Slavic *_-inke_ < *_-inka_, e.g., _Mudding_ ~ _Muddink_
'Mommy').

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==begin quote==

"Conversational Platt" Class to be Offered

Ever wonder what those people are saying when they start "snacking" Platt?
Would you like to be able to participate with a few words of your own? Help is
on the way!

The Pommerscher Verein - Central Wisconsin is planning a brand new project. It
is a "Conversational Platt" course to be held this coming October. The class
will be 4 weeks long with 2 sessions per week of 2 hours in length.  The
current plans are for Monday and Wednesday evening beginning on October 1st
and ending on October 24th. These dates are still subject to confirmation. The
course will be held at the University of Wisconsin- Marathon County campus.

The expected enrollees will range from people with little or no knowledge of
Low German who want to learn something about it to those who are more fluent
but just want to participate to brush up on their skills.

The format will be informal and will be run by a "facilitator team" with an
emphasis on practical usage. Also included besides speech, will be some
historical background of Low German, its development and usage, its status
today, catch phrases and humor. The objective will be to learn something in a
relaxing environment and to have good time in the process. Send in the coupon
to get on the list.

==end quote==

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 15:31:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:31:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" (was "History") LOWLANDS-L,
 08.FEB.2001 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.8.FEB.2001.073132.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
> Subject: LL-L: "History" LOWLANDS-L, 05.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]
>
...
> >> The saxons got their name from a kind of sickle:
> >
....
> I only know of Dutch _zeis_ and Low-Saxon _seise_,
> other than that, I can't come up with anything.
>
> Henry
>
Bi us k?ert sik dat Ding Seisse. Und ek heff mi lestet Jaohr noch
en nigges Seissenblatt kaupt. Wilen de Seisse be?tter te bruken
es as d?ese saugenaimten elektrischen Fadenschneider.

Doch wo werd ne Sickel tau brukt? Kennt It irgend ne Arbeit, wo ne
Sickel wat bat?. Dat Dingen d?gt doch f?r nix. Und d?etwegen es
klipp und klaor, wenn It siett: I can't come up with anything.

Gued gaohn
Reiner

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Henry, Reiner, Leeglanners,

In de nordsassischen Dialekten heett ingelsch _scythe_ (< old-ingelsch _si?e
-- d??tsch _Sense_) "See?" [zEIs] (f., p. _Se?en_ ['zEIs=n]) or _"Sei?" [zaIs]
(f., p. _Sei?en_ ['zaIs=n]).

In de meersten nordsassischen Dialekten heett ingelsch _sickle_ (<
old-ingelsch _sicol_ < latiensch _secula_ > d??tsch _Sichel_) _Sicht_ [zICt]
(f., pl. _Sichten_ ['zICt=n]).

De Diminutiv-Formen "Se?el" ['zEIs=l] (f., pl. "Se?eln" ['zEIs=ln]) or
"Sei?el" ['zaIs=l] (f., pl. "Sei?eln" ['zaIs=ln]) k??nt "See?" (_scythe_) or
"Sicht" (_sickle_) bed?den.

Gr?ten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 19:19:34 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:19:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L, 09.FEB.2001 (01)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.FEB.2001.111934.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Offline resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Below is a list of noteworthy publications of the Fryske Akademy or
publications that can be purchased from the Akademy bookstore
(stijsma at fa.knaw.nl).  A more extensive list can be found and books can be
ordered from at <http://www.fa.knaw.nl/>.  I have incorporated the works
listed above into our Frisian Offline Resources Guide
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/frisian_offline.htm).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Breuker, D. Gorter & J. Hoekstra (1996)
Orientation in Frisian studies. Ljouwert/Amsterdam, Fryske Akademy, v + 61 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=651

Dyk, S. (1997)
Noun Incorporation in Frisian (diss. RUG). Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (848),
ISBN 90-6171-848, Hfl. 40.00, viii + 231 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=645

Dykstra, A. (2000)
Frysk-Ingelsk wurdboek/Frisian-English dictionary. Ljouwert, xxxviii + 1153
pp.

Dykstra, A. en R.H. Bremmer Jr, red. (1999)
In Skiednis fan 'e Fryske taalkunde. Ljouwert, 372 pp.

Feitsma, A. (1993)
Oud en nieuw in de Frisistiek. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (766), ISBN
90-6171-766-3, Hfl. 2.50, 30 pp.

Gorter, D. (1996)
Het Fries als kleine Europese taal. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (No. 823), ISBN
90-6171-823-6, 28 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=620

Gorter, D., G.H. Jelsma, P.H. van der Plank en K. de Vos (1984)
Taal yn Frysl?n. Fryske Akademy (638), ISBN 90 6171 638 1, Hfl. 47.50, 437 pp.

Gorter, Durk en Reitze J. Jonkman (1995)
Taal yn Frysl?n op 'e nij besjoen. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (807), ISBN
90-6171-807-4, Hfl. 20.00, 90 pp.

Hoekstra. J. (1997)
The syntax of infinitives in Frisian (diss. RUG). Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy
(841), ISBN 90-6171-841-4, Hfl. 30.00, v + 169 pp.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=659

Jonkman, Reitze J. (1963)
It Leewarders: In taalsosjologysk ?ndersyk nei it St?dsk yn ferh?lding ta it
Nederl?nsk en it Frysk yn Ljouwert. Fryske Akademy (No. 771), ISBN
90-6171-771-X, Hfl. 30,00, 309 pp.

Kodama, H. (1992)
Furijiago bunp? (Fryske Grammatika). Tokyo: Daigakushorin, Hfl. 130, 291 pp.

Smith, James F. (1980)
Language & language attitudes in a bilingual community: Terherne (Friesland).
Frysk Ynstit?t Grins/Fryske Akademy (585)/Stabo/All-round B.V., Hfl. 26.75,
299 pp.

Tiersma, P.M. (1999)
Frisian Reference Grammar. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (No. 886), ISBN
90-6171-886, Hfl. 30.00, 147.
http://www.fa.knaw.nl/default.asp?objectID=623

Visser, W. (1997)
The Syllable in Frisian (= HIL Dissertations; 30) (diss. VU). The Hague &
Ljouwert, H.A.G. & Fryske Akademy, xiv + 405 pp.

Ytsma, J. (1995)
Frisian as first and second language. Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy (No. 797), ISBN
90-6171-797-3, Hfl. 30,00, 208 pp.

==================================END===================================
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 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 17:26:36 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:26:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 11.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.FEB.2001.092636.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 11.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Yogi Reppmann [yreppman at rconnect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Last night I had the pleasure to step in for Dr. Richard Trost, Des Moines,

IA, who was supposed to speak in the Germanic-American Institute about his
translation of the book "Juernjakob Swehn der Amerikafahrer" by Johannes
Gillhoff.  Since 1916, one million copies had been sold in Germany because
of the charming Low German quotes (Missingsch).

I used the chance to mention that we organize the fourth U.S. Low German
conference in Grand Island, NE on October 19-21, 2001.  The
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society has organized the first two
conferences in 1995 and 1997 and the Pommerscher Verein, which was
mentioned
under "Events," February 6, 2001, in 1999.

Yours, Yogi Reppmann

3 Lincoln Lane
Northfield, MN, 55057
Tel: (507) 645-9161
Fax: (507) 663-7929
Yogi at moin-moin.com
http://www.moin-moin.com

***

Press Release:

4th Low German Heritage Days
(Platt Conference)
and Genealogical Workshop
Grand Island, Nebraska Oct. 19-21, 2001

The Platt Deutsche Corporation and the Liederkranz Society of Grand Island,

Nebraska will be hosting the US?s 4th Low German Heritage Days (Platt
Conference) and Genealogical Workshop. The meeting will be in English and
Platt. One main focus will be about the Low German spoken in the Midwest
and the renaissance of interest in the language and culture of those who
still speak it. A surprisingly large number of children who grew up in the
country learned to speak Low German at home before entering kindergarten
where they were for the first time exposed to the English language. As a
result, many of them now enjoy speaking Low German as their mother tongue,
but only learned to read and write in English.

These Heritage Days are of special interest for both, American and German
genealogists, all Platt speakers, and those who would like to learn more
about this charming language of their forefathers. During this weekend,
German genealogists will support US family researchers in their efforts to
read old German script and to find new resources.

A program full of variety covering workshops, slide shows, lessons,
traditional German cooking, folk dance, theatre, music performances, and
singing along will surely make for an enjoyable and educational experience.

These gatherings have already made great accomplishments in linking the Old

with the New World. The 4th Low German Heritage Days and Genealogical
Workshop had its beginning with the American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage
Society of Davenport, Iowa in 1995.

Several emigrants from Schleswig-Holstein, among them William Stolley and
Fred Hedde, 1848 democratic revolutionaries, founded Grand Island, Nebraska

in 1857. City Mayor of Grand Island, Ken Gnadt, expects altogether over 400

participants from around the country and Germany:

?Besides informative slide show presentations, genealogical workshops with
visiting German specialists in Old German script and church books,
a German Heritage Festival, Low German/English choir music, theatre
performances, and Grammy?s favorite recipes - the gathering will also have
an Oktoberfest atmosphere.?

For further information, contact:

Institute for Low German in America, Dr. Joachim Reppmann, Professor of
German
Address: 3 Lincoln Lane, Northfield, MN 55057
Phone: (507) 645-9161 ? fax: (507) 663-7929, yogi at moin-moin.com ?
http://www.moin-moin.com or

Mayor Ken Gnadt, City Hall,
Address: 100 East First Street, Box 1968, Grand Island, NE 68802-1968
Phone: (308) 385-5444 (ext. 100), Fax: (308) 385-5486, mayor at gionline.net

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
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  =====================================================================


From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 23:44:24 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:44:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 11.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.FEB.2001.154424.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 11.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Yogi Reppmann [yreppman at rconnect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Events" LOWLANDS-L, 06.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Last night I had the pleasure to step in for Dr. Richard Trost, Des Moines,

IA, who was supposed to speak in the Germanic-American Institute about his
translation of the book "Juernjakob Swehn der Amerikafahrer" by Johannes
Gillhoff.  Since 1916, one million copies had been sold in Germany because
of the charming Low German quotes (Missingsch).

I used the chance to mention that we organize the fourth U.S. Low German
conference in Grand Island, NE on October 19-21, 2001.  The
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society has organized the first two
conferences in 1995 and 1997 and the Pommerscher Verein, which was
mentioned
under "Events," February 6, 2001, in 1999.

Yours, Yogi Reppmann

3 Lincoln Lane
Northfield, MN, 55057
Tel: (507) 645-9161
Fax: (507) 663-7929
Yogi at moin-moin.com
http://www.moin-moin.com

***

Press Release:

4th Low German Heritage Days
(Platt Conference)
and Genealogical Workshop
Grand Island, Nebraska Oct. 19-21, 2001

The Platt Deutsche Corporation and the Liederkranz Society of Grand Island,
Nebraska will be hosting the US?s 4th Low German Heritage Days (Platt
Conference) and Genealogical Workshop. The meeting will be in English and
Platt. One main focus will be about the Low German spoken in the Midwest
and the renaissance of interest in the language and culture of those who
still speak it. A surprisingly large number of children who grew up in the
country learned to speak Low German at home before entering kindergarten
where they were for the first time exposed to the English language. As a
result, many of them now enjoy speaking Low German as their mother tongue,
but only learned to read and write in English.

These Heritage Days are of special interest for both, American and German
genealogists, all Platt speakers, and those who would like to learn more
about this charming language of their forefathers. During this weekend,
German genealogists will support US family researchers in their efforts to
read old German script and to find new resources.

A program full of variety covering workshops, slide shows, lessons,
traditional German cooking, folk dance, theatre, music performances, and
singing along will surely make for an enjoyable and educational experience.
These gatherings have already made great accomplishments in linking the Old
with the New World. The 4th Low German Heritage Days and Genealogical
Workshop had its beginning with the American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage
Society of Davenport, Iowa in 1995.

Several emigrants from Schleswig-Holstein, among them William Stolley and
Fred Hedde, 1848 democratic revolutionaries, founded Grand Island, Nebraska
in 1857. City Mayor of Grand Island, Ken Gnadt, expects altogether over 400
participants from around the country and Germany:

?Besides informative slide show presentations, genealogical workshops with
visiting German specialists in Old German script and church books,
a German Heritage Festival, Low German/English choir music, theatre
performances, and Grammy?s favorite recipes - the gathering will also have
an Oktoberfest atmosphere.?

For further information, contact:

Institute for Low German in America, Dr. Joachim Reppmann, Professor of
German
Address: 3 Lincoln Lane ? Northfield, MN 55057
Phone: (507) 645-9161 ? fax: (507) 663-7929 ? yogi at moin-moin.com ?
http://www.moin-moin.com or

Mayor Ken Gnadt, City Hall,
Address: 100 East First Street, Box 1968 ? Grand Island, NE 68802-1968
Phone: (308) 385-5444 (ext. 100) ? fax: (308) 385-5486 ? mayor at gionline.net

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
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  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
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  =====================================================================


From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 15:28:00 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:28:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.072800.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Kahn, Gabriele [GKahn at easy.de]
Subject: Article on abcnews: Languages in danger of extinction

This is an Internet news article of Feb 9
(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/language010209.html).

Word to the Wise
Languages Are in Danger of Extinction
In 1974, Ned Madrell died on the Isle of Man, and with him died the Manx
language, lost to the world - forever. A similar end awaited the Ubykh
language. When farmer Tefvik Esemic died in rural Turkey in 1992, so did
Ubykh.
As the world's youth increasingly shun native languages in their bid to fit
in to mainstream society and the languages that dominate, the future of many
languages rests with older members of tribes and communities. In the next
100 years, experts estimate 90 percent of the world's languages will be
extinct or virtually extinct.
A UNEP (United Nations Environment Program) report released Thursday warns
thousands of languages may disappear and with it, vast reserves of the
world's culture and traditions. The world currently houses between 5,000 and
7,000 spoken languages, with more than 2,500 estimated to be in very real
danger of extinction. Of these, says Graham Dutfield of the Oxford Center
for the Environment, Ethics and Society and one of the authors of the
report, more than 553 are in imminent peril as they are spoken by only up to
100 people. "When you reach a situation where there are 1,000 speakers or
less who speak a mother tongue, the language is in danger," says Dutfield.
Forced Off the Globe
But most people who are born into one or two of the world's "mega-languages"
such as English, Spanish, French or Arabic understand just how imperative
the pull of these languages can be. As globalization ratchets up the volume
of trade and the mass media spreads a culture packaged in televisions, CDs
and walkmans, the death bells of indigenous languages have been pealing
louder than ever before. "Language has always changed throughout history,"
said Dutfield. "But the commercial pressure to assimilate has never been
stronger than in the past 10 years."
A number of the world's languages have disappeared thanks to conquerors,
colonizers, dictators and individuals with a zest to change things. In some
of the more notable cases, Welsh schoolchildren at the start of the 20th
century were beaten for not speaking English, and many young Australian
Aborigines were taken away from their parents and adopted by whites to
"help" them assimilate. Last year, both the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs
and the Canadian government formally apologized for preventing native
inhabitants from speaking their languages. But a cultural resurgence in many
parts of Europe, North America, Australia and New Zealand has seen concerted
movements to preserve languages. On the Isle of Man, for instance, there has
been a movement to teach young children Manx.
Losing More Than Language
The problem, said Dutfield, becomes pressing among indigenous peoples who
are increasingly coming in contact with the outside world and are in danger
of being swallowed by it. Nearly 4,000 to 5,000 of the world's languages are
classed as indigenous. The real danger, according to experts, is that when a
language dies, not only does the world's linguistic diversity receive a
blow, but entire systems of knowledge are lost. "Languages are repositories
of vast systems of knowledge," says Dutfield. "When a language dies, we do
not know how much we are losing with it."
However, the Internet has enabled a number of languages in the throes of
death to live to cyberspace. With audio files and embedded texts, a number
of languages are being given a chance to survive, even if it's only in a
virtual world.

Greetings,
Gabriele

==================================END===================================
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 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
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 =======================================================================


From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 16:42:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:42:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (02)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.084206.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

Beginning last Thursday, our good hosts as LINGUISTS had some machine
trouble.  The list server was down for a while and has been fully functional
only since late yesterday.  Apparently no submissions have been lost.
However, if you did send something to LL-L and have not seen it appear so far,
please send it again.

I would like to welcome a few new subscribers.  They are from the following
countries, some of them countries that were previously rarely or never
represented: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Cuba,
Denmark, England, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy,
Kazakhstan, Luxemburg, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Northern Ireland,
Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Russia, Scotland, South Africa, Spain, Sweden,
Switzerland, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United States of America, and
Wales.  (Sorry if I forgot any.)  Also, it is a special pleasure to welcome
someone from Omrop Frysl?n, the TV and radio broadcasting company of Frysl?n
(Friesland) in Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, the Netherlands
(http://www.omropfryslan.nl/).  A couple of members of the Fryske Akademy,
also of Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, have been subscribers for quite some time.  Last
but certainly not least, I am happy to welcome back a number of subscribers
that had left us for a while.  Some of them had been subscribers since the
very early days of LL-L (1995) and decided to return "home."  (I do not
mention anyone by name to allow them the option of anonymous lurking.)

This is a good time for me to send you a reminder of the posting guidelines.
This is necessary because of many "slips" lately and because beginning posters
keep making basic mistakes.  This is mandatory reading for all but the most
experienced contributors.

I encourage lurkers to come forward and contribute.  You need not feel
self-conscious or intimidated as long as you stick to the basic guidelines.

PLEASE DO READ THESE GUIDELINES:

(1) KEEP DISCUSSIONS RELEVANT.  Please remember that we deal with the
"Lowlands" area.  This is not synonymous with "Germanic" but excludes German,
Luxemburgish and the North Germanic languages (Scandinavian, Icelandic and
Faroese).  It is perfectly fine to mention these related languages, and any
other languages and their cultures for that matter, especially wherever there
are parallels or connections that are useful in understanding topics that are
within our main subject area.  However, the focus must remain on the Lowlands
languages and cultures.  It is all right to sidestep within a discussion, as
long as the discussion returns to the original focus.  However, this should
not be seen as an excuse to start a new, extraneous subject line.

(2) KEEP SUBJECTS SEPARATE.  Do not submit a single posting in which more than
one topic is discussed.  ("Topic" equals "subject line".)  This also applies
when you respond to other people's postings.

(3) STICK TO THE SUBJECT TITLE.  If you start an entirely new discussion, you
are welcome to create your own subject title.  I may or may not adopt that
title.  (The more general the title is the better is the chance that I'll
adopt it; otherwise I'll generalize it.)  If you respond or add to previous
postings in an already existing subject line, please use the already existing
title of that discussion threat as your subject heading. For instance, if the
current title is "Language varieties" and you respond to what someone wrote
about vowels in Flemish dialects, don't choose something like "Long o and u in
the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of young Belgians" as your
subject heading; stick to "Language varieties," if you like it or not. This
facilitates sorting submissions at my end.  If I feel that the discussion has
changed or a new discussion has branched off an existing one, it is *my* job
to give it a new title.

(4) EDIT QUOTES.  When you reply to what someone else has written, don't just
hit the reply button and write your reply before or after the quoted text.
EDIT OUT WHATEVER IS NOT ESSENTIAL, most definitely the LL-L masthead and
footer.  (They are going to stay, for good reasons.)  Also, don't do what some
do: they follow this rule nicely until they run out of things to say, and then
they let the rest of the quoted text dangle behind their "signature."

(5) GIVE CREDIT.  Don't forget to say who the writer of the text is to which
you are responding.  (When you hit the reply button your system most likely
credits me or "Lowlands-L," the sender, even if I did not write it.)

(6) IDENTIFY YOURSELF.  Anonymous postings are not permitted and will be
ignored.  Readers must be able to see who wrote a posting.  Many people have
automatic "signatures;" they are great, as long as they are not attached. (No
attachments allowed!)  Otherwise, your name must appear either with your email
address or at the end of your contribution.  It is all right to have your
surname appear in one place and your given name in another place within the
same posting.

(7) DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS.  Attachments (i.e., attached documents or
pictures), including signature attachments, are unacceptable.  The list server
strips most attachments off submissions and would probably remove the rest
during final distribution if I did not remove them already.  Anyway, sending
attachments without prior approval from recipients is a big no-no in
"netiquette."  So, please put everything you wish to convey inside your email
submissions.

By all means, please feel free to submit postings to LL-L, even if you have
never done so before.  If you make a gross mistake, I'll tell you so privately
and will have you resubmit it correctly before anyone else sees it -- which
isn't the end of the world. If the mistake is not so bad, I'll correct it once
or twice in the hope that you will get the hint eventually.

If you have never posted but are considering getting into it, it's a good idea
to watch the "masters," the "old hands" or "veterans" on LL-L, namely those
subscribers who contribute frequently and have been around for a long time (a
handful of them since the very beginning in 1995!)
Good luck, and keep us posted!

Reinhard "Ron"
Hahn Lowlands-L

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 16:47:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:47:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (03)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.084732.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)

Folk,

In response to Gabrielle Kahn's submission, I would
suggest that one of the keys to this is to promote
active bilingualism from an early age.

The point is that study after study has consistently
shown that no harm whatsoever is done to children if
they are brought up bilingually (trilingually, on the
other hand, *is* a problem). Therefore the answer is a
relatively simple one - bring the child up in its
native tongue, and in the official national or
regional language. That way the child has a good
knowledge of its own identity and culture through its
own language, while being at absolutely no
disadvantage (perceived or otherwise) to fellow
nationals - in fact in some cases it will be at an
advantage since it will probably find learning further
languages later in educational life easier.

I would say (though Cristoir may know more about this
than I) that the most effective and successful Irish
medium school in Northern Ireland is the Bunscoil at
Armagh City. Without any government grants it gained
consistently higher attendances than equivalent
schools with bigger catchment areas which were
receiving grants. It did this through successful
marketing, and that marketing was based on the central
aim of bringing children up bilingually (that's to say
Irish at school and English at home). It was only a
secondary issue, albeit an important one, that the
second language happened to be their own, the tongue
with the longest literary history in Western Europe.
Parents are still unlikely to be won over by that
argument, no matter how compelling, for fear that the
child might lose something by being brought up
bilingually. Once you promote the point, you're on to
a winner. (Needless to say the school is now well
funded with 29 pupils the last I heard)

This is a message those of us who represent 'minority'
or (a better term) 'lesser-used' languages should
strive to promote.

------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 21:52:46 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:52:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L,
 13.FEB.2001 (04)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.135246.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (03)

[parsleyij at yahoo.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)
>
> In response to Gabrielle Kahn's submission, I would
> suggest that one of the keys to this is to promote
> active bilingualism from an early age.
>
> The point is that study after study has consistently
> shown that no harm whatsoever is done to children if
> they are brought up bilingually (trilingually, on the
> other hand, *is* a problem). Therefore the answer is a
> relatively simple one - bring the child up in its
> native tongue, and in the official national or
> regional language. That way the child has a good
> knowledge of its own identity and culture through its
> own language, while being at absolutely no
> disadvantage (perceived or otherwise) to fellow
> nationals - in fact in some cases it will be at an
> advantage since it will probably find learning further
> languages later in educational life easier.

I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
nationalism.

In the "Flemish movement" in Belgium one has rejected a bilingual
French-Dutch co-existence in the North of this country since this
automatically leads to social interactions to be predominantly held in
the strong language. As a result of about 150 years of  political
"progress" the North is unilingual Dutch (+ it's dialect varieties,
including Limburgish)

The negative side of the story:
The quality of the French spoken by people from the North deteriorated
significantly. Companies often switch to English for events with
participation from North and South.

The positive side of the story.
Dutch did more than survive and got a quite strong position:
- Drain of Flemish people to French schools recently switched to a drain
of people from Romance (French) circles to Dutch-language schools
(especially in the Brussels area).
- When I participated, e.g. at meetings of the Belgian Standardization
Organization in the seventies, the presence of one single French
speaking participant from the South (in a group of about 20) was
sufficient for the meeting to be held in "French only". For the moment
virtually "Dutch only" is spoken and French language speakers quite
often switch to some semi-Dutch creolic variant.

The result in N. Belgium compared with the North of France (Westhoek):
1815: both:     - street: dialect variants of the Dutch family
                       - cultural top: French
So the starting position was very similar; the result is quite different
though:
2001: N. France:    - street French only (some people above 75
eventually speak a Flemish dialect in family circle)
2001: N. Belgium:   - street: Dutch, Belgian Dutch and it's dialects
                        - cultural top: Dutch   (economic top: switching
to English)

I personally think the option "Dutch-only" and "no bilinguism" saved the
persistence of Dutch and it's variants in N. Belgium.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (03)

At 08:47 13/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:
>Folk,
>
>In response to Gabrielle Kahn's submission, I would
>suggest that one of the keys to this is to promote
>active bilingualism from an early age.
>I would say (though Cristoir may know more about this
>than I) that the most effective and successful Irish
>medium school in Northern Ireland is the Bunscoil at
>Armagh City. Without any government grants it gained
>consistently higher attendances than equivalent
>schools with bigger catchment areas which were
>receiving grants. It did this through successful
>marketing, and that marketing was based on the central
>aim of bringing children up bilingually.

I'm certainly in favour of children having a bi-lingual upbringing.
What I often wonder, though, is whether the type of upbringing
described in Ian James Parsley's posting does actually produce adults
who are genuinely bilingual, with an equal command of two languages.
On the face of it, it seems to me that it would more probably produce
adults who are diglossic, who are stronger in one language in certain
areas of expression, and in the other language in other areas.

I'd expect to see this in the kind of situation that I suspect
exists in Armagh, in which the language of the school is not spoken
(as a native tongue, anyway) in the majority of pupils' homes. I've
no doubt that the school teaches the children to use Irish as a medium
of learning, of literate expression, and of business, because those
things are what schools exist to teach.

On the other hand, there are other things that I'm not so certain
about. Does the school teach children how to express strong emotion,
including negative emotion such as malice, bitterness and prejudice?
Does it teach then how to express intimacy? Does it teach them how to
be profane, and to speak bluntly on matters of sex or the toilet?

Some might say that it isn't the role of schools to teach those things,
but to say that would be to miss the point. Unless the children grow
up to be adults who *are* capable of expressing those things in both
languages, even if they can use the school language beautifully
for certain other purposes, then they are not truly bilingual.

If enough children come from Irish-speaking homes for Irish to be
the language of the playground as well as the classroom, then things
aren't so bad, as the playground will teach many things that the
classroom doesn't. The children from Irish-speaking homes
will pass the "taboo" register on to the others. On the other hand,
if the language of the playground is English, or even "classroom"
Irish, then the children's command of language will not develop fully.

For these reasons, although I'd be very pleased to be shown to be
wrong, I have large doubts about the effectiveness of this kind of
solution in preserving endangered languages, unless it is supported
by other measures in the broader community. On its own, it will
certainly produce people who can express *some* things in the
endangered language: my question is, is that really enough? If
people cannot express themselves fully in a particular language,
naturally they will turn to another in which they can.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Gabriele, Ian, Roger and Colin,

Thanks for sharing your information and thoughts on this topic.  I have a few
thoughts of my own in reaction, presented in a benevolently challenging mode.

Roger, you wrote:

> I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
> nationalism.

I am not sure, but on the basis of what you wrote thereafter I assume you mean
something like "ethnic/linguistic assertion" rather than "nationalism."

In the context of language competition, especially minority language problems,
"nationalism" is likely to be interpreted as a type of precursor or ingredient
of secessionism, one of the greatest fears of political states, a fear -- be
it justified or not -- that tends to lead to suppression of minority languages
and cultures.  Suspicion of nationalist/secessionist motives is often used as
a pretext for suppression, even prohibition, of minority languages.  In other
words, in such a context nationalism would lead to war in most cases.

Yes, ethnic/linguistic assertion, too, is sometimes seen as dangerous,
especially by those who advocate the shedding of ethnic/linguistic identity
for the sake of a solely national identity, and by those who happen to
consider a certain minority ethnicity/language inferior or otherwise
contemptible.  When I tell people about my interests in minority languages and
their (re)assertion, I often get responses like "But why *ask* for
trouble/Balkanization?!"  However, most people seem reassured if you explain
that assertion of a certain minority language is not accompanied by
(significant) secessionist sentiments.  You would most certainly not get
central governments to support minority language rights if they as much as
suspected "nationalism."

Colin, you wrote:

> On the face of it, it seems to me that it would more probably produce
> adults who are diglossic, who are stronger in one language in certain
> areas of expression, and in the other language in other areas.

You certainly made a compelling case, at least in my humble opinion.

However, without wanting to distract from your point, let me ask you to
categorize cases that do not seem to fall into either category.  I guess Low
Saxon/Low German vs German and Dutch is a case in point, and I believe Scots
vs English to be a similar or even identical case.  Especially in former
times, children would first learn Low Saxon and would start to seriously
acquire the power language German (D) or Dutch (NL) with the beginning of
their schooling, since their native language is/was banned from schooling.
So, after a while they would become diglossic, as you explained: Low Saxon at
home/in the native community and German/Dutch at school/outside the native
community.  However, at school they would in many cases interact with children
whose first language was German/Dutch, and they would become quite fluent in
the power language, even acquiring a convincing inventory of emotionally based
expressions.  Many of them would marry "outside the language" and would speak
the power language with their spouses and perhaps even with their children.
An outsider may never realize that the power language started off as a second
language.  How would you categorize such a case?  Would it still be first
language vs second language?  Surely it would not a case of diglossia.  Or
would it?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 23:19:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:19:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (05)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.151906.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death")  LOWLANDS-L,
13.FEB.2001 (04)

At 13:52 13/02/01 -0800, R. F. Hahn wrote:

>You certainly made a compelling case, at least in my humble opinion.

My thanks to Ron for his kind comments.

>However, without wanting to distract from your point, let me ask you to
>categorize cases that do not seem to fall into either category.  I guess Low
>Saxon/Low German vs German and Dutch is a case in point, and I believe Scots
>vs English to be a similar or even identical case...
>... How would you categorize such a case?  Would it still be first
>language vs second language?  Surely it would not a case of diglossia.  Or
>would it?

I'd make a distinction between the situation described in Ron's
posting, and that which Ian James Parsley described earlier. In Ron's
situation, the language that the children bring to school is the
lesser-used language, with the language of the school itself being
the power language. In Ian James Parsley's the roles are reversed,
and this is a key distinction which limits the value of direct
comparison between the two.

On the other hand, I'd be reluctant to say that there's no
comparison at all. I've no direct experience of Low Saxon, but I do
believe that the tendency to produce diglossic rather than bilingual
adults is one reason why English-medium education has not produced
the desired result of eradicating Scots entirely. Some people have
always had to turn to Scots, to say things that their school did
not teach them how to say in English.

Television, on the other hand, has been much more damaging because
it teaches people how to say a great many things in English that no
school-teacher would ever have taught them.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Thanks for the explanation (above), Colin.

I am under the impression that in the relative strongholds of Low Saxon/Low
German in Northern Germany (e.g., Eastern Friesland), where some people still
start off with the regional language, adults end up with German as a
"complete" language and Low Saxon as the first but "incomplete" language. The
latter is "incomplete" because it has not been used outside the sphere of home
and small community, and anything that belongs to "public" spheres
(bureaucracy, formal education, non-traditional technology, etc.) is
associated with the use of "High" German.  You will hear people talk in Low
Saxon and then switch to German or at least start using many German loans
(including calques) as they start talking about "non-traditional" matters.  I
suppose this explains the weak position of the language.

One more thing regarding Roger's point:

> I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
> nationalism.

Even if we use "ethnic assertion" in place of "nationalism," this may not be
applicable in cases where the speakers are not seen and do not see themselves
as ethnically separate from the dominant ethnicity.  This is the case, by and
large, with Low Saxon/Low German, certainly in Germany, and I believe it
applies in the Netherlands also.  I suppose that is why Low Saxon/Low German
is classified as a "regional language" rather than as a "minority language."
I have a feeling this applies to speakers of Scots also (even though they may
really be a majority as far as numbers are concerned).  Does this put these
languages into a more precarious position?  Perhaps it does, because there is
not clear dividing line other than use of language.  However, there is still
"regionalism," of which most speakers still have plenty, which, on the other
hand, does not require the use of Low Saxon, though it enhances it.

Can "language assertion" succeed without "ethnic assertion" and/or
"nationalism"?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:13:07 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:13:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (06)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.FEB.2001.171307.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Thomas [t.mcrae at uq.net.au]
Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)

Gabriele Kahn wrote as part of a much longer article...
> From: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Language death" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (01)
>
> Welsh schoolchildren at the start of the 20th
> century were beaten for not speaking English

In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in
the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we did
not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve its
goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to
Scots I hope this is still the case.
The rest of Gabriele's mailing is quite worrying.

Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
"Oh wid some power the Giftie gie us
Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"
Robert Burns--

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 16:47:10 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:47:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)
Message-ID: <WED.14.FEB.2001.084710.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Kahn, Gabriele [GKahn at easy.de]
Subject: Language death

I wholeheartedly agree with Ian on most points, although I don't see why
being trilingual would be any problem for children. My own children grew up
that way, as they had a German mother and a Dutch father and lived in the
USA for eight years. There are plenty of Kurdish immigrant children in
Germany, for example, who speak both Kurdish and Turkish and then learn
German, too. These are both examples, however, for children who are
bilungual already and learn their third language at the age of five or so,
so maybe that's different.
As a child, I heard a special version of Platt spoken in my village (in the
Solling area of Southern Lower Saxony) among some of the older people, but I
doubt whether anyone still speaks it now. Somehow, at some point
(coincidentally, when television become popular?), people seem to have
thought they weren't doing their children a favour by talking to them in
what was considered a crude peasant language instead of "proper" German.
Also, I have a suspicion that they didn't mind being able to talk so the
children wouldn't understand...
Perhaps we should start a world-wide movement promoting ethnic languages as
"cool". Movies, rap songs, video games featuring Sollinger Platt - hey,
maybe there's even money in it!

Man j?mmer tau,
Gabriele

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L

Roger Thijs wrote:

> The result in N. Belgium compared with the North of France (Westhoek):
> 1815: both:     - street: dialect variants of the Dutch family
>                        - cultural top: French
> So the starting position was very similar; the result is quite different
> though:
> 2001: N. France:    - street French only (some people above 75
> eventually speak a Flemish dialect in family circle)
> 2001: N. Belgium:   - street: Dutch, Belgian Dutch and it's dialects
>                         - cultural top: Dutch   (economic top: switching
> to English)

A few comments on those statements. First, there was a significant Dutch
speaking 'cultural top' in Flanders, both in Belgium and in France,
throughout the 19th and 20th century.
Second, in French Flanders it's not just some people above 75 who speak
'Vlaemsch'; the Euromosaic Report (http://campus.uoc.es/euromosaic/) states
that 'Flemish is spoken in the north-west of France by an estimated
population of 20,000 daily speakers and 40,000 occasional speakers'. On a
total number of about 150,000 people living in the Flemish language area,
that's quite a lot actually.
Third: fortunately I never heard of an 'economic top' in Flanders using
English outside business situations...

Tom McRae wrote:

> In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
> speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in
> the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we
did
> not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve
its
> goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to
> Scots I hope this is still the case.

Before WWII in some schools in Zeeland, kids had to pay five cents every
time a teacher 'caught' them on speaking Zeeuws. Unfortunately a far more
succesful method of banning the language from the playgrounf then just beat
them, because it affected the parents as well. Five cents was the price of a
bread back then! Reason enough to switch to (corrupt) Dutch at home. And on
top of that: the teacher has studied up north, in Holland, so he must know
what's right for the children.
Strange enough, the latter is still very much the case in Zeeland. Teachers
mostly come from outside Zeeland and take no interest what so ever in the
regional language...

Marco Evenhuis

-----

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L,
13.FEB.2001 (04)

Roger and Colin,

It is undoubtedly true that minority languages gain
considerably from being associated with 'nationalism',
but this is only the case if the people associated
with nationalism realize it! I could write a book on
this, but I do know that many Scottish Nationalists
would have no interest in Scots, and of those who do
many would deny that their interest in Scots and in
Scottish independence are linked in any way. Scottish
Nationalism seems, at least so far, to be based on
economic rather than cultural arguments.

My point is that some language movements are
inextricably linked with 'nationalism' of some sort,
but others are not. Scots activists would probably
think they would lose support if their cause was
linked to Scottish Nationalism. There is no doubt
that, in the long term, the cause of spoken Irish as a
regular means of communication was damaged severely by
its association with Irish Nationalism, an association
which many Irish Nationalists and Irish Language
activists were never truly comfortable with. Certainly
I am turned off Ulster-Scots by any association with
Ulster Unionism (in other words 'British Nationalism'
in Northern Ireland, or even 'Ulster Nationalism') -
in other words I, like many others, separate my
political views completely from the culture I enjoy. I
have already resisted several attempts to assign me,
'Ulster-Scots activists' or 'Ulster-Scots speakers' to
any particular political or social group and will
continue to do so.

In other words, if your lesser-used language is not
associated with a political movement, you have to take
different approaches to promoting it. It seems that
the majority in northern Belgium had no difficulty
with the concept that Dutch should *replace* French -
likewise with Catalan vis-a-vis Spanish in Catalonia
and the Balearics (but not in Valencia). However,
although I am a great fan of the Scots tongue and am
keen to see it used regularly, I do not propose that
it should *replace* English, or even that it should be
used in all contexts. Business meetings of the future
will take place in English, computers will use English
- even if you don't think that should be the case, the
fact is it *will* be. Parents and governments will,
quite rightly, look down on any attempts to revive or
preserve minority languages which threaten their
children's knowledge of English.

I am not actually suggesting that children should be
schooled in one language and use another at home -
it's just that in the example I used it was the only
realistic option. Nobody in Armagh speaks Irish now,
so you have to teach children Irish from an early age
(even if that means they will be 'diglossic' rather
than 'bilingual') so that, in a generation's time,
there *will* be Irish-speaking parents and eventually
true bilingualism can become an option once again. You
can't get round the fact that some of the essence of
the language will be gone, because it already has gone
(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum of
colours - colour names are now expressed on a
one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather than
on their own scale).

In the case of Scots, that needn't necessarily be the
case - indeed it is more likely, as Ron says, that
children will enter English-speaking school as Scots
speakers. That is my point - teachers, advisers,
parents, authorities and everyone else who counts
should be fully aware that such bilingualism presents
no danger to the child - in other words, awa wi the
tawse!

On the other hand, the reality is, whether we like it
or not, that everyone in future will be diglossic to a
certain extent, particularly in English-speaking
countries. For reasons outlined above, English (albeit
a slightly dodgy, non-literary version) will be the
only medium of communication in certain contexts.

The case of Dutch in Belgium is probably rather
different from the case of Scots or Gaelic in the UK
anyway. I wonder, in fact, how well Dutch would have
developed in Belgium if:

a) Belgium did not have a Dutch-speaking neighbour
b) French, instead of English, had retained its
position as 'World Language'

You would know the answer to this much better than I!
Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Thanks for your interest in this topic.  This has been a thought-provoking
exchange.

I believe that those who care about lesser-used languages and would like them
to survive need to face facts and somehow deal with existing obstacles.

For example, irrespective of our own enthusiasm and lofty ideas, and
irrespective of official recognition, there is still a majority of people,
including those who grew up with minority and regional languages, who consider
the use of minority and regional languages frivolous or "not serious" (i.e.,
only good for jokes and folksy entertainment), and that there are those who
consider it an obstacle or threat to "progress" and "success."  The task at
hand then seems to be to convince these people of the importance of continuing
the use of these languages and to do so without threatening their basic value
systems.  How would you go about doing that?

Also, no matter what you and I may think and wish, the majority of people
still associate the use of "power" languages versus "powerless" languages with
social class, simply with power or the lack of it.  In most people's views,
there are clear incentives associated with the use of power languages:
limitless formal education, higher social standing, economic success.  It is
in many cases also associated with urban and certainly metropolitan living,
something to which a large percentage of young people in rural and small-town
settings will always aspire.  What kinds of incentives are there to present in
the promotion of those language varieties that are associated with lower
socio-economic class, politically disadvantaged ethnic minorities and
economically disadvantaged rural areas?

Certainly in the past, members of linguistic minorities *needed* to be
bilingual because of pressures from two sides: (1) needing to use the elite
language variety in certain settings to gain access and respectibility (e.g.,
while working in the big city), and (2) needing to use the minority/regional
language variety to retain social acceptability in their native communities
(e.g., on visits back home in the country).  Coming home and "talking city"
used to be as unacceptable as "talking country" in the big city.  (There is a
well-known Low Saxon exclamation that has been made into a song: _Mien Gott!
He kann keen Plattd??tsch mehr!_ ["Good God! He's forgotten his Low
German!"])  Although in some instances this pressure to be bilingual continues
(e.g., for African Americans needing to sound "White" in educational and
professional settings but being required to sound "Black" in most African
American settings), I am under the impression that in other instances pressure
from minority/regional language communities is weakening.  For instance, the
generations of our parents and grandparents no longer insisted on us using Low
Saxon/Low German even if we spoke it as a first language.  It was accepted as
a given that children and grandchildren answer in German to questions given in
Low Saxon, and some parents and grandparents themselves switched to German
"for the sake of the kids" and used Low Saxon only amongst themselves.  (It is
the scenario Gabriele describes above.)  I hear that this has been happening
in Germany's Frisian and Sorbian communities as well.  In other words, in many
or most cases, insistence to stick with the native language at home had been
eroded or is in a state or gradual erosion.  Can such insistence be
reestablished once it is weakened or gone?  If so, how?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 20:13:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:13:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (02)
Message-ID: <WED.14.FEB.2001.121318.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

> From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L
>
> Second, in French Flanders it's not just some people above 75 who
speak
> 'Vlaemsch'; the Euromosaic Report (http://campus.uoc.es/euromosaic/)
states
> that 'Flemish is spoken in the north-west of France by an estimated
> population of 20,000 daily speakers and 40,000 occasional speakers'.
On a
> total number of about 150,000 people living in the Flemish language
area,
> that's quite a lot actually.

I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find any of
these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several hours in the
center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even when participating over
there at activities of circles promoting local culture in the area
(recently in Kaaster, and in Kassel, and in Steenvoorde). My convinction
is that nationalist, or better regionalistic, Flemish people from the
area blow up these statistics for underlining their "identity", while
the very same people are not able to speak either Dutch or the "former"
local Flemish dialect. I'm sorry to say this.

> Third: fortunately I never heard of an 'economic top' in Flanders
using
> English outside business situations...

Basically it is true that it is focussed on business situations. New is
an emerging "English" social live in the Brussels area. I think it
initially developped from circles of  UK people working in the European
Institutions and in Brussels corporate offices.

I personally participate actively (about once a month) at "social"
activities of Amcham, the American Chamber of Commerce in Brussels.
Belgian participation is quite high (I estimate at about half of about
150 - 300 participants at the events); the language spoken is virtually
English only. For in case somebody is interested: The next  Amcham
"Business After Hours"  reception is on Thursday March 8 at 6 p.m. at
the Brussels Swiss?tel. It is sponsored by "Swiss?tel". Registration
before March 2. (Participation: BEF 700 members, BEF 1000 non-members)

Regards,

Roger

-----

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

A chairde,

Ian's assertion of the success of the Bunscoileanna
(Irish-speaking schools) is interesting. They form an
archipelago of Irish-medium educational institutions
throughout the north of Ireland and are a source of
great pride and satisfaction within the nationalist,
republican and Gaeilgeoir? (Irish-speaking)
communities as a whole.

Whilst the Bunscoileanna represent an important step
forward and a bold gesture toward the promotion of
Irish as a living language and a means of everyday
communication (as opposed to the Gaeltactisation of
Irish whereby it is hounded into [p]reservations to be
sustained), nonetheless the fact remains that the
profile of Irish in the Six Counties is almost
non-existent. Even if one attends a Bunscoil, one is
obliged to use the "killer language" (English) in any
wider context. This is because Ireland is "occupied"
by the English language and to speak Irish is to odd,
quaint, idealistic and somewhat useless. This is a
reaction to a no-hope scenario where the community
feels it has "no choice" but to use the dominant
language even when, in fact, it does in innumerable
small ways. The advent of Teilif?os na Gaeilge Ceathar
(TG4), an Irish-language television service, has been
an enormous boost to the Gaelic; further, the
availability of journals such as Comhar, An tUltach,
Foinse, and the daily L? points out that perhaps the
greatest struggle a "dying language" (to use the
pessimists' inadequate terms) fights is one to say,
"we are still here, we still speak our language, we
will not die." Profile is what is needed - language as
landscape, as ubiqitous.

Part of the problem I feel is that there is
internalised oppression amongst minority language
communities that see linguistic erosion as inevitable
and so simply "concede defeat". This is evidenced in
the dread felt amongst minority language speakers of
appearing extreme in, say, tearing down monolingual
signs in the oppressing language or being "audacious"
enough to demand to use their native language with the
occupying state institutions (i.e., local government,
University, etc.): the result is a "victimhood" that
acquiesces to language death. If we look at the case
of Wales we see that a fully bilingual policy was
developed almost solely from "extreme" actions such as
the immolation of English signs in Welsh-speaking
areas, civil disobedience and so forth.

It is all fine and good to bemoan the "inevitability"
of a language's death: it is quite another, in one's
pessimism, to collaborate with the murder of that
language. Be daring. Be audacious. Take the chance.
Because if you don't, you might as well give in.

And then what would happen?

I am half-Cornish and I know only too well what the
aftermath of linguistic extirpation feels like.
Furthermore, I have seen the sociological consequences
of language loss: a feeling of peripheralisation
because of late dominant language acquisition;
feelings of inadequacy, inferiority, and incapability;
a lack of hope borne of a deep sense of loss and
deprivation; and above all, a completely defeated
mentality that conspires against hope and motivation.

Is that really a fitting way to live?

Go raibh maith agaibh agus ag labhairt do theangacha
tuiginn beidh an l? libh,

Cr?ost?ir.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 00:05:21 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:05:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)
Message-ID: <WED.14.FEB.2001.160521.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Roger Thijs wrote:

> I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several

> hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even
> [...] My convinction is that nationalist, or better
> regionalistic, Flemish people from the
> area blow up these statistics for underlining their
> "identity", while the very same people are not able to speak
> either Dutch or the  "former"
> local Flemish dialect. I'm sorry to say this.

Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.
Many of my linguist colleagues trying to investigate these
stigmatized varieties have run into social brick walls this way.
 They often have to get a speaker to introduce them gradually
into the right social context.  Some start off speaking the high
language, to show that no condescension is intended, then
casually talk to the family dog in dialect, as a way to gently
slide into dialect.

Does anyone on our list have first-hand experience with Flemish
in France?

Stefan

-----

From: Ian James Parsley [parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Gabriele,

> I wholeheartedly agree with Ian on most points, although I don't see
why
> being trilingual would be any problem for children. My own children
grew up
> that way, as they had a German mother and a Dutch father and lived
in the
> USA for eight years. There are plenty of Kurdish immigrant children
in
> Germany, for example, who speak both Kurdish and Turkish and then
learn
> German, too. These are both examples, however, for children who are
> bilungual already and learn their third language at the age of five
or so,
> so maybe that's different.

Yes, that is different. David Crystal's 'Cambridge Encyclopedia of
Language' (Cambridge University Press 1987) and others books provide
examples of how children (i.e. of pre-school age) have no difficulty
at all being brought up bilingual. They are fully aware that the
languages are distinct - usually if one parent speaks one and the
other speaks the other the child will select the correct one (or the
incorrect one, depending!). When shown pictures and ask to name the
object, the child will select the shorter one (my own test of a
Spanish/English speaking child).

However, should you introduce a third language, or should 'the wrong
parent speak the wrong language', this has been shown to lead to
confusion.

I should add that this is my own experience even as an adult. I am
conscious at any time that I only speak two languages fluently, and
that it takes time to 'replace' one with another. So when I lived in
Germany my two were English and German, when I lived in Spain I
'replaced' German with Spanish, so that when I met some Germans in
Madrid I had difficulty reverting to German immediately. Of particular
interest, I found, was that I selected the Spanish for certain key
words - 'Ja, ich spreche tambien Deutsch'. I also met a Spaniard
resident in Germany who had lived in America for six years and spoke
perfect English apart from saying 'si' for 'yes' at all times!

If we apply this to your children, you will most likely find that one
of the three languages has become notably weaker - and it probably
isn't/wasn't English (they were using that all day at school). You
will often find that Kurdish immigrants who also speak Turkish have
very poor German unless they 'give up' one of the other two. It's
still there passively, but it takes time and often a conscious effort
to 'revert' to it.

It's an interesting issue, because it may actually help answer the
'language vs. dialect' debate. At what stage does bidialectal become
bilingual? If a child has Standard English, Irish and Scots would that
be confusing? What about Standard English, Irish and Geordie? Standard
English, Irish and Cockney? Standard English, Irish and Scottish
Gaelic?

I don't know of much research that has been done on this.

> Perhaps we should start a world-wide movement promoting ethnic
languages as
> "cool". Movies, rap songs, video games featuring Sollinger Platt -
hey,
> maybe there's even money in it!

Well, there is 'Dat wichtigste is, dat ihr Fussball spielt'!! (surely
that should be 'futball'...)

Seriously, Welsh and Irish have moved this way. The Welsh Language
movement demanded a number of posts dependent on Welsh to get people
learning it for a reason. Possibly better still (although time will
tell), the All-Ireland body for promoting Irish, Foras na Gaeilge
(Merrion Square, Dublin 2, eolas at bnag.ie) has launched an advertising
offensive where Irish is used in modern contexts. You're right - fire
out these video games with the titles and credits in lesser-used
languages etc, it can't do any harm.

You do, however, have to be a bit careful where no agreed written
standard exists - too much writing can actually lead to alienation by
those who don't accept the writing system. In which case, like you
say, do raps, dub plays etc.

Best regards,
Ian.
------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 15:43:41 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:43:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.074341.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> > any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several
> > hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even

Stefan Israel responded:

> Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
> speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
> speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.

The Euromosaic Report I mentioned earlier states that: "According to R?hrig
(1987), some 20% of people living in maritime Flanders are of Flemish
mother-tongue. However, only 5% of them use Flemish on a daily basis".
That's probably the reason Roger never (?) finds a speaker of Flemish while
visiting the region.
Roger mentions the city of Bailleul, which is in fact one of the bigger
cities in French Flanders and the Western Flemish language of the region is
very much a language of the more rural areas. And when people from the
countryside come to the city, they addept themselves to the city. Even here
in Zeeland, people who use Zeeuws/Zeelandic on a daily basis switch to (more
or less) Standard Dutch when coming to the capital Middelburg. They know
that in Middelburg most people speak Dutch instead of Zeeuws, so they leave
their Zeeuws at the city gate...

Furthermore, did Roger just listen in Bailleul, or did he try to speak with
people in their own language? Standard Dutch is hardly understood by most
speakers of West-Flemish in France... Perhaps Roger should try to go to a
play by the theatre group 'Volkstoneel voor Frans-Vlaanderen'. This group
stages Western Flemish plays throughout French Flanders each year and each
year it's really hard to conquer tickets! When I attended a play by this
Volkstoneel in Godewaersvelde, the place was packed. And everywhere around
me I heard people speak Western Flemish, switching to French and back to
Western Flemish. And they where not just old people, there were some 40 year
olds there as well...
I myself hardly ever use French when in French Flanders. My Zeelandic
dialect is understood perfectly overthere and when I start a conversation in
my dialect and the person I speak to doesn't understand Flemish/Zeeuws,
there is always someone near who does.

Roger, on your next trip to French Flanders, skip Bailleul/Belle and, if you
do want to visit a town rather than the countryside, try Bergues/Sint
Winoksbergen. In the streets, in shops, on the market place you will hardly
hear any Flemish spoken. But I remember spending a whole afternoon in the
Caf? des Sports, chatting with almost everyone in the pub and not having to
use one word of French!

Marco Evenhuis

-----

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Geachte Lowlanders,

Ik wist niet dat het ook zo erg gesteld was in Zeeland... Deze toestand was
dus niet veel beter dan die in Occitani? waar borden op de speelkoer stonden
met de tekst: "Soyez propre, parlez Fran?ais", of in Bergues waar in koeien
van letters op de buitenschoolmuur geschilderd stond: "Interdit de cracher
et de parler Flamand" (foto te vinden in het boek van Luc Vanackere "Hoog
bezoek in de Westhoek"), of in Belle en Duinkerke waar de jongeren die
Vlaams durfden te spreken werden afgeranseld, of nog in 't zuiden van
West-Vlaanderen waar een ware heksenjacht rond het Vlaamse schooltje van
Komen gewoed heeft (dit laatste is zelfs van ver na de IIe wereldoorlog!).

Het is allemaal nog niet zolang geleden en de schrik zit er nu nog
ongelooflijk diep in, zodat het zeer gevaarlijk is als buitenstaander
besluiten te trekken vanuit oppervlakkige waarnemingen!!!

Nu is het zeer de vraag of die blijkbaar van hogerhand gestuurde
(ON)MAATSCHAPPELIJKE  druk wel verbeterd is, en of nu wellicht alleen maar
de methoden wat verfijnd of aangescherpt zijn (of worden)?

En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:

Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele
keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn eigen
taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit
laatste is onlogisch vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van de groep om die beter
te leren kennen en waarderen.

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

Under the title Language survival
Gabriele Kahn and Ian James Parsley discussed aspects of trilinguality of
children.
Gabriele Kahn did not see a principal problem, Ian James Parsley had doubts if
a
full competence of three languages is possible.

In my working neighbourhood I have quite a lot of cases, where parents bring
up
their children in three languages.  I work in
Holland, but most staff on my wroking place  is not Dutch; many are of couples
of two different nationalities. In these cases often the parents both speak in
their own language to the children (e.g. French and English; German and
Italian
etc.), whilst the kindergarten, school and neighbourhood is Dutch speaking.
I know about a dozen cases like that. In only one case the child had problems
with one or two languages. In all other cases, as far I could see, a full
competence is achieved in three languages. In all these successful cases there
is a clear allocation of languages, e.g the mother always speaks German, the
father always Italian.
And it does not go really fully automatically - parents apparently do invest
more time in the language aspects of education than  in a standard
one-language
situation.
So for these cases my experience is not in line with Ian James Parsley's
perception.
The full competence means that in all three languages the children are able to
use quite different registers, a local dialect and the standard.

What happens here in some cases with so-called international staff in foreign
environment, thus with a small minority, is in other cases normal in a region.
To mention one now historical example, which I don't know directly myself (i
am
too young for that) but quite well from many persons coming from this
background, is Galicia, today Ukraine. There until 1918, and to a lesser
extend
also till 1940, a whole population grew up with full competence in Yiddish,
German and Polish. Of course there are many other - at least historical -
examples in Europe with a standard trilinguality. Maybe, to bring the topic
back
to LL, an example could be a (former) population of south Jutland (Denmark):
Denish/Low Saxon/German? Or also the Saterland Frisians: Frisian/Low
Saxon/German?

regards
Georg

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 15:31:28 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:31:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.073128.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 15.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> > any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several
> > hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even

Stefan Israel responded:

> Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
> speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
> speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.

The Euromosaic Report I mentioned earlier states that: "According to R?hrig
(1987), some 20% of people living in maritime Flanders are of Flemish
mother-tongue. However, only 5% of them use Flemish on a daily basis".
That's probably the reason Roger never (?) finds a speaker of Flemish while
visiting the region.
Roger mentions the city of Bailleul, which is in fact one of the bigger
cities in French Flanders and the Western Flemish language of the region is
very much a language of the more rural areas. And when people from the
countryside come to the city, they addept themselves to the city. Even here
in Zeeland, people who use Zeeuws/Zeelandic on a daily basis switch to (more
or less) Standard Dutch when coming to the capital Middelburg. They know
that in Middelburg most people speak Dutch instead of Zeeuws, so they leave
their Zeeuws at the city gate...

Furthermore, did Roger just listen in Bailleul, or did he try to speak with
people in their own language? Standard Dutch is hardly understood by most
speakers of West-Flemish in France... Perhaps Roger should try to go to a
play by the theatre group 'Volkstoneel voor Frans-Vlaanderen'. This group
stages Western Flemish plays throughout French Flanders each year and each
year it's really hard to conquer tickets! When I attended a play by this
Volkstoneel in Godewaersvelde, the place was packed. And everywhere around
me I heard people speak Western Flemish, switching to French and back to
Western Flemish. And they where not just old people, there were some 40 year
olds there as well...
I myself hardly ever use French when in French Flanders. My Zeelandic
dialect is understood perfectly overthere and when I start a conversation in
my dialect and the person I speak to doesn't understand Flemish/Zeeuws,
there is always someone near who does.

Roger, on your next trip to French Flanders, skip Bailleul/Belle and, if you
do want to visit a town rather than the countryside, try Bergues/Sint
Winoksbergen. In the streets, in shops, on the market place you will hardly
hear any Flemish spoken. But I remember spending a whole afternoon in the
Caf? des Sports, chatting with almost everyone in the pub and not having to
use one word of French!

Marco Evenhuis

-----

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Geachte Lowlanders,

Ik wist niet dat het ook zo erg gesteld was in Zeeland... Deze toestand was
dus niet veel beter dan die in Occitani? waar borden op de speelkoer stonden
met de tekst: "Soyez propre, parlez Fran?ais", of in Bergues waar in koeien
van letters op de buitenschoolmuur geschilderd stond: "Interdit de cracher
et de parler Flamand" (foto te vinden in het boek van Luc Vanackere "Hoog
bezoek in de Westhoek"), of in Belle en Duinkerke waar de jongeren die
Vlaams durfden te spreken werden afgeranseld, of nog in 't zuiden van
West-Vlaanderen waar een ware heksenjacht rond het Vlaamse schooltje van
Komen gewoed heeft (dit laatste is zelfs van ver na de IIe wereldoorlog!).

Het is allemaal nog niet zolang geleden en de schrik zit er nu nog
ongelooflijk diep in, zodat het zeer gevaarlijk is als buitenstaander
besluiten te trekken vanuit oppervlakkige waarnemingen!!!

Nu is het zeer de vraag of die blijkbaar van hogerhand gestuurde
(ON)MAATSCHAPPELIJKE  druk wel verbeterd is, en of nu wellicht alleen maar
de methoden wat verfijnd of aangescherpt zijn (of worden)?

En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:

Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele
keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn eigen
taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit
laatste is onlogisch vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van de groep om die beter
te leren kennen en waarderen.

Frans Vermeulen

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 20:36:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:36:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/L]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.123654.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 15.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]

> From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)
> Furthermore, did Roger just listen in Bailleul, or did he try to speak
with
> people in their own language? Standard Dutch is hardly understood by
most
> speakers of West-Flemish in France... Perhaps Roger should try to go
to a
> play by the theatre group 'Volkstoneel voor Frans-Vlaanderen'.

I obviously have just some casual experience, though:

a. A couple of weeks ago I participated at a dinnerof the Michiel de
Swaenkring in Cassel. The only people I have been speaking Dutch with,
were all Belgians. Although this circle is very Flemish-nationalistic,
the French participants, I had contact with, all apologised they spoke
French only. An ex-senator of Lier in Belgium started some Flemish
songs. Some French participants joind singing "lalala" parts of some
songs, and nothing more.

b. I was at the "hand-over festivities" of a restored painting of the
Driemaagdenkapel in Kaaster about 2 years ago. Contacts I had were only
in Dutch when Belgians or Dutchmen were involved. All Frenchmen I have
been talking with apologized they onlty spoke French. I heard some
Flemish though: Ternynck has been reading some of his poems in both
Flemish and French. I heard some months ago, his readings are very
popular at the Belgian side, in the Belgian Westhoek (Veurne,
Poperinge). Ternynck is from Steenvoorde and teaches English in
Hazebrouck.

c. I stopped for lunch in Hazebrouck some months ago. They had "potje
vleesch" on the menu. What I got was fish in a gelly substrate.

d. quoting (in Dutch) from an interview of the "famous" French-Flemish
singer Klerktje:

quote from
http://www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/folint1.htm

Nu spreken nog maar weinig mensen in zijn omgeving Vlamsch.
Mijn moeder en mijn vader zijn allebei dood. Maar we spreken niet veel
Vlamsch meer. Ook niet in de straat. Heel Koudekerke spreekt Frans. We
zijn hier gekomen in het jaar '73, toen waren er nog Vlamingen. We
konden toen nog Vlamsch spreken op onze boerderij, van de ene boerderij
tot de andere. Een beetje praten en zotte dingen zeggen in het Vlamsch.
Maar nu is dat gedaan, het is allemaal jong volk.

Omdat zijn vrouw geen Vlamsch sprak, hebben ze met hun kinderen enkel
Frans gesproken.
Mijn vrouw begrijpt geen Vlamsch, het was dus moeilijk om Vlamsch te
spreken met de kinderen. Maar nu beklaag ik dat. De kinderen zouden ook
graag Vlamsch kennen, want ze begrijpen me niet. Mijn zoon is van het
jaar '50, hij wordt volgend jaar dus 50. Mijn dochter is van '52.

e. quoting (in Dutch) from an interview of the "famous" French-Flemish
poet Ternynck:

quoting from:
http://www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/poeint1.htm

Welke taal hebt u met uw kinderen gesproken?
Ik heb vier kinderen: drie zonen en ??n dochter. Mijn kinderen kennen
slechts enkele woorden Vlaams want mijn vrouw is Franstalig en spreekt
geen Vlaams. Het was dus moeilijk voor de kinderen om Vlaams te leren.
Mijn vrouw kent maar enkele woorden zoals: peper, zout, brood en boter.

En hoe is het gesteld met de Vlaamse cultuur in de dorpen en steden
hier?
Er vinden veel activiteiten plaats in de dorpen zoals kermissen en
tentoonstellingen van schilders van de streek. Er gebeurt een beetje van
alles maar niet veel in het Vlaams, bijna alles speelt zich in het Frans
af. Er was bijvoorbeeld een bierfeest in Sainte Marie-Cappel bij Cassel.
De mensen waren er gekleed als onze voorouders maar spraken geen Vlaams.
Dat was een beetje jammer.

Hoe staan de jongeren aan wie u les geeft tegenover hun Vlaamse
"wettels" (wortels)?
Sommigen weten zelfs niet dat ze Vlaming zijn. Ze hebben een Vlaamse
familienaam maar zijn zich daar niet van bewust.We praten daar wel eens
over. Het is ook moeilijk om Vlaamse lessen te geven. Vorig jaar gaf ik
tussen de middag zo'n cursus aan zeven of acht jongeren. Dit jaar lukt
het niet omdat ik veel radiowerk heb en er geen tijd meer overblijft.

--> --> This is a bit in contradiction with, continue quoring

Waarschijnlijk wordt er steeds minder Vlamsch gesproken?
Het wordt niet veel meer gesproken. In deze streek zijn er nog ongeveer
100 000 mensen die het Vlaams begrijpen en een beetje spreken.

f. quoting (in Dutch) from an interview of Delannoy (Volkstoneel voor
Frans Vlaanderen, a group from Westouter, Belgium)

quoting from:
http://www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/tonint3.htm

Hoe ziet u de toekomst van het Frans-Vlaamse dialect?
Wij hebben beslist dat het de moeite loont om verder te doen dit jaar.
Het zou misschien heel eervol geweest zijn om nu het bijltje erbij neer
te leggen: " Het is 45 jaar mooi geweest en we hebben ons uiterste best
gedaan maar in Frans-Vlaanderen sterft dit dialect langzamerhand uit.
Dus kunnen we het gezelschap maar beter opdoeken". Velen echter spoorden
ons aan om door te gaan omdat het zeker nog loont. We zullen ermee
doorgaan, we mogen immers de ge?nteresseerden niet in de kou laten
staan. We zullen dit doen, ook al komt er maar ??n toeschouwer meer naar
onze voorstelling. Voor ons ziet de toekomst er toch rooskleurig uit, de
toekomst van het Frans-Vlaams daarentegen allesbehalve. Uit de contacten
die ik en mijn collega's hebben, moeten wij eerlijk toegeven dat het
Frans-Vlaams aan belang verliest. Dat is erg jammer maar daaraan kunnen
wij helaas niets veranderen. De mensen zelf kunnen proberen om hun taal
in stand te houden.

endquote

> Roger, on your next trip to French Flanders, skip Bailleul/Belle and,
if you
> do want to visit a town rather than the countryside, try Bergues/Sint
> Winoksbergen. In the streets, in shops, on the market place you will
hardly
> hear any Flemish spoken. But I remember spending a whole afternoon in
the
> Caf? des Sports, chatting with almost everyone in the pub and not
having to
> use one word of French!

I most certainly will give feed-back next time I'm in the area.

> From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)
> Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
> Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
> beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
> Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
> verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer
en vele
> keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn
eigen
> taal!

Veeng ich eigelek ooch. Alpeteen ees het Limburgs as treektoal erkaant
in Holland en in modulle vjariggemok veur sjoe-ele in Bels Limburg. T?s
allein zow, as ich petoere ens Limburgs sjreef in d?is l?s, das ich nowt
gein reakse kr??g en ich dan ok van mez?re ejt anes mot keeize. Ich h?b
toch gjan daze mich versteun.

All?, had oech m?r allemol gowd,
Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 23:54:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:54:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L,
 15.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.15.FEB.2001.155418.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 15.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

At 08:47 14/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>You can't get round the fact that some of the essence of
>the language will be gone, because it already has gone
>(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum of
>colours - colour names are now expressed on a
>one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather than
>on their own scale).

I think that, with this observation, Ian James Parsley has brought
us close to the crux of how we judge the value of solutions such as
the school in Armagh, in preserving endangered languages.

What it really comes down to is the question of *why* we want to
preserve our endangered languages. One possible reason, put forward
recently on this very list, is simply to make a "statement": a gesture
of defiance towards people that we perceive as oppressors, who tried
to eradicate our language and/or culture, which we want to preserve.

If that's our aim, then a "gutted" version of an endangered language
will do perfectly well. The oppressors will neither know nor care
about the difference between eloquence in it or the reverse, and will
be antagonised equally (if at all) by either "whole" Irish (for
example) or the "gutted" version.

On the other hand, if the aim is to prevent "entire systems of
knowledge" (the expression in Gabriele Kahn's original posting) from
being lost, then "gutted" versions of endangered languages simply
aren't good enough. Ian James Parsley's observation about colours
in Irish illustrates my point: solutions such as the school in Armagh
may be preserving some semblance of a language but the *system of
knowledge*, which to some of us is the important thing, is being lost.

Of course, I can see that this may not be the important thing in the
estimation of the people who send their children there, who may
well be motivated more by political priorities. I certainly wouldn't
say that this attitude is wrong (although it's certainly different
from mine), but I think this difference in individual priorities needs
to be recognised when we assess the value of measures intended to
preserve endangered languages.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

While I have no argument with Colin's discussion above, I would like you to
consider another possibility, language revival, which is available where a
given moribund or extinct* language is seen as an important symbol and/or as
an essential expression of a given culture that enjoys a revival.

(* I include under "extinct" those languages that are still written but have
ceased to be used in natural spoken discourse situations.)

In such a case, it is not impossible to revive a language on the basis of
extant knowledge.  Until the early part of the 20th century, most people
assumed that this was impossible.  However, the case of Hebrew has shown that
it *is* possible under certain conditions.

In such a case scenario you must have available an extensive lexicon and
grammar preserved in copious literary sources and in numerous readers' passive
proficiency.  But as a naturally spoken language it begins for all intents and
purposes as a "gutted" one, to use Colin's terminology.  However, under the
right set of circumstances this "gutted" language will take on a life of its
own and will develop an "entire system of knowledge" beginning in earnest with
the first generation of native speakers.  This system is partly new and partly
traditional.  It is by no means divorced from the ancestral language.  So,
granted, most likely this revived language will be a rather different creature
if compared with the ancestral language, but it will adapt to the speakers'
needs and will, in one form or other, incorporate knowledge of past traditions
if these need to be discussed.

With the beginning of Zionism and European Jewish settlements in Palestine
there was a perceived need for a specifically Jewish, reuniting homeland
language.  A logical choice may have been Aramaic, since it was the language
last used in the area before the Jewish Diaspora and because it has modern
spoken descendants: Chaldean Aramaic (Iraq), Judeo-Aramaic (Iraqi Kurdistan,
Israel) and Assyrian Aramaic (Iran, Georgia, Russia, Iraq, Syria).  Most
speakers of the modern varieties, however, are not Jewish.  Hebrew *is*
specifically Jewish.  It ceased to be an everyday spoken language a long, long
time ago.  Thereafter it remained important as a liturgical language and as a
written language, mostly in religion and philosophy.  As far as I know, it
used to be occasionally used in rudimentary spoken forms by Jewish men who did
not have any other common language between them, much like Latin used to be
used among medieval Christian scholars and is still used in the Vatican.
Hebrew was revived and adapted to life in the late 2nd millennium, partly as
an artificial spoken language, by people who came together from all over the
world.  There are now about 5 million speakers of it, and of these close to
4.5 million are native speakers.  In some ways, the modern language is a far
cry from biblical Hebrew, especially phonologically.  (Arabic-speaking
immigrants tend to pronounce it more authentically, but they will eventually
adopt the current European-based pronunciation.)  However, Modern Hebrew is by
no means disconnected from Biblical Hebrew, and today's speakers can
understand ancient texts even if they are not thora scholars.  Personally I
witnessed how young native speakers created new words and expressions and
introduced phonological changes (e.g., /h/ [h] > zero) and how second-language
speakers gradually followed their lead (though sometimes grudgingly).

So, where there are extensive written sources and other types of records, it
appears to be possible to bring a language back to life.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/L]

1. Language discrimination in favor of "native" English in Brussels
2. A minority and a minority in this minority.

1. Quoting from "Trends International", February 2001

Queen's English.
... many Brussels-based European NGOs are busy practising language
discrimination.

  Toiletry and Perfumery Association Colipa advertised for a
receptionist/secretary "English mother tongue is an absolute must"...
(etc., etc.)
... Native English speakers clearly have a head strart when it comes to
getting jobs in Brussels-based European non-governmental organisations
and trade associations.
... prestigious organisations - among them the Energy Charter
Secretariay, the World Organisation of the Scout Movement, the Council
of European Municipalities and Regions, Eurydice and Eureka - were all
looking for employees who speak "mother-tongue" English...

Belgian lawyer Inge Vanderreken (who works for Claeys Engels labour law
firm) does believe something is very wrong. ... a case of indirect
discrimination... such job adverts violate the 1983 collective
Bargaining Agreement and 1981 laws on racism....

Professor Jean Jackmain...: Belgium has very little jurisprudence...The
lack of jurisprudence particularely applies to the private sector. In
the public sector, the recruitment process can be cancelled if
discrimination is proven.
... in the private sector, courts can only offer compensation and cannot
make the employer take the discriminated worker...

Non-native speakers of English who have suffered language discrimination
at the hands of a European non-governmental organisation may win their
case, Jacqmain believes. "But would the compensation be significant? And
would the victims have to go to court with their own money?"...

Petra Foubert is writing a PhD on discrimination at the Institute for
European Law in Leuven.... She points out that paradoxically legal
action may become more difficult if language discrimination becomes a
hot issue. European firms and associations preferring mother-tongue
English employees may simply advertise for "fluent" or "perfect" English
speakers, but only call native English speakers to interview.

Jacqmain:... The Belgian labour inspection and the justice systems must
be ready to use their powers. The trade unions must have a strong
strategy, says Jacqmain hopefully...

2. The Belgian German Community area (covering the "cantons" of Eupen
and Sankt Vith) is reviewing language education in the school system.
Since the French minority in this minoity area is "protected by some
facilities", the German Community is also forced to provide for French
language schools for their French minority.

Quoting from the daily newspaper Grenz-Echo (Eupen, B) of Donnerstag 15
Februar 2001 (in German):

Dekretentwurf der Regierung liegt vor...

... Deutsch bleibt weiterhin die Unterrichtssprache, w?hrend Franz?sisch
die erste Fremdsprache ist. Andersum gilt die Regel in die
Minderheitenschulen (eine in B?tgenbach, zwei in Eupen, eine Herbesthal,
zwei in Kelmis) f?r franz?sischsprachige Sch?ler. Neu sind allerdings
die Bedingungen, die bei der Gr?ndung einer solchen Minderheidenschule
ab nun gelten sollen: 15 Kinder im Vorschulalter und 30 Primarschuler
sind hierfor nun erforderlich. Zudem m?ssen diese Sch?ler in der
Gemeinde, wo sich die Schule befindet, wohnen. Eine weitere Bedingung
ist die Muttersprache der Eltern, die der Unterrichtssprache der Schule
entsprechen muss. Auf diesen Gebiet sollen Sprachkontrollen durchgef?hrt
werden...

Was nun den reinen Spracheunterricht anbelangt, so sollen Kinder in
Kinderg?rten mindestens 25 Minuten pro Woche mit der Fremdsprache in
Kontakt kommen. ...

In der Primarschule soll die Unterrichtssprache mindestens f?nf Stunden
pro Woche praktiziert werden. Die Fremdsprachen sollen in der 1. Stufe
drei Stunden/Woche (jetzt 2 Stunden), in der 2. Stufe 3 Stunden (keine
Ver?nderung) und in der 3. Stufe 5 Wochenstunden betragen.

Von Fachunterrichten in der Fremdsprache wird kategorisch abgesehen.
Fachelemente k?nnen dagegen in Fremdsprachenunterricht eingebaut
werden...

Der Zugang zu den franz?sischen Schulen wird Sch?lern aus dem Ausland
verboten...

Im Regel- und Sondersecundarschulwesen werden die rein franz?sischen
Abteilungen abgeschafft...
Neu ist auch der bilinguale Zweig, der 50 Prozent des Unterrichts (au?er
der modernen Sprachen) in franz?sischer Sprache vorsieht. In den anderen
normalen Studienjahren wird von 0 bis 30 Prozent Fachunterricht in
Franz?sisch angeboten. Hier hat die Schule freie Wahl. Das Gesamtkonzept
des bilingualen Zweigs muss aber noch ausgearbeitet werden.

... Der Franz?sischunterricht in den Grundschulen wird... nicht mehr vom
Klassenlehrer, sondern von einem Fachlehrer erteilt.

--- endquote

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: frank verhoft [frank_verhoft at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Beste Laaglanders


Op 15 februari schreef Frans Vermeulen [FV]:

>En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:
>Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie
en niet door de Lowland-L-administratie!))

Eerder dan aan "kwalijk opgefokte traditie" denk ik
dat beweegredenen au fond economisch zijn: ik herinner
mij nog levendig hoe onze eerste zelf-geproclameerde
Vlaamse Minister-President uitpakte met "Flanders
Technology". Voor een individu dat zich regelmatig
vergaloppeerde in bloed- en bodemtoespraken leek dit
een excellent geval van economisch opportunisme, of,
indien u Dhr Van den Brande w?l kan velen, van een
doordachte strategie in een ruimer perspectief. Aan u
de keuze.
En geef toe, het klinkt beter of minstens toch
internationaler dan "Vlaemsche huisvlijt", en ik
vermoed ook dat een Angelsaksiche benaming een ietsje
meer bekendheid genereerde dan een eventuele
Nederlandse/Vlaamse.
Internationaal en economisch gezien is het Engels nu
eenmaal dominant, of wij (u en ik) daar nu de kriebels
van krijgen of niet. Alhoewel ik huiver bij het
concept "Global village", wordt het toch tijd om in te
zien dat de wereld groter is dan ons erf. Zonder dat
we daarom ons erfgoed moeten of mogen verloochenen.

[FV]
>iedereen in de strot geduwd

- Om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat Engels nu eenmaal
andermaal economisch gezien de beste taalkeuze is, ?n
omdat men in deze geglobaliseerde wereld makkelijker
tot communicatie kan overgaan in het Engels dan in
pakweg het Hausa, Awadhi, Sindhi of het Nederlands
(elk met 20 miljoen sprekers aldus
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/top100.html).
Trouwens, dit is, mutatis mutandis, zowat dezelfde
reden waarom Duitstaligen in de grensstreek met onze
noorderburen aardig massaal Nederlands studeren. Over
de grens zijn de arbeidsvoorwaarden en dus
toekomstperspectieven blijkbaar beter dan in de eigen
streek. Idem dito voor de (bescheiden) opgang van het
Nederlands bij onze Waalse landgenoten.
Erst kommt das Fressen, dan kommt die Sprache. Een
reden waarom 2/3 van de wereldpopulatie w?l meertalig
is, en zich niet kan bezig houden met dit soort
(taalpolitieke) luxeproblemen. En neen, Brecht is geen
kameraad van mij. Maar dit terzijde.

Wil u chocolade slijten aan de andere kant van de
Noordzee, dan gaat u niet ver komen met "pralines" of
"sjokolat". Met "Belgian chocolates", daarentegen...
Ook op het gebied van de wetenschap, film, muziek,
kunst met grote of kleine K etc., is het Engels
uitgegroeid tot de lingua franca, of beter communa.
Wat gaan we doen met een fantastisch
communicatiemiddel als internet, als we niet bereid
zijn te communiceren, (desnoods) in een andere taal?
Anderzijds denk ik niet dat het leren en hanteren van
een tweede of derde taal afbruik doet of kan doen van
ons aller moers taal, integendeel. Ook het
introduceren van anderstalige (lees Engelse) woorden
in het Nederlands lijkt mij niet echt de taal
contamineren. Wat zou er nog van de Engelse taal
overblijven als we haar ontdoen van Romaanse,
Oudfranse, Latijnse, Griekse, ..., kortom niet-Engelse
"indringers"? Wat maakt het Engels als taal net zo
boeiend ?n veelzijdig ?n flexibel? Misschien kunnen we
daar beter een voorbeeld aan nemen in plaats van naar
onze navel te staren, of incestueus onze eigen (en
enige) taal te bedrijven.

In al mijn naiviteit meende ik het adagio dat de taal
gansch het volk is, zoals eens welluidend verwoord
door een of andere Vlaemsche paster, pass? was, en dat
we verder zouden moeten kijken dan ons klokkenspel
lang is. In al mijn dwaasheid meende ik dat de strijd
voor de Vlaamse (Nederlandse) taal gestreden was -
gelukkig maar. Is nu de tijd van geslagen underdogje
spelen en blatende querulantie niet voorbij?
Ik dacht ook dat communiceren eerder een kwestie zou
moeten zijn van geven en nemen, dan van het
organiseren van dure en onnodige taalpolitieke
steekspelletjes of carrousels. En o ja, er is nog
nooit iemand gestorven door het leren van een andere
taal.

- En om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat het aanbod aan
Engelse taalcursussen uitgegeven en verspreid door
Britse uitgevers overweldigend is. Ze mogen dan rare
jongens zijn, die Britten, van "taalexport"
gecombineerd met commercie hebben ze wel cheese
gegeten. Dat beide zichzelf versterken, hoeft geen
betoog.
Mag ik hierbij ook even opmerken dat het binnen- en
buitenlands aanbod aan degelijke en uitgebalanceerde
cursussen Nederlands voor anderstaligen eerder
beperkt, en dan nog vooral van Nederlandse
("Hollandse") signature is, zelfs de populaire maar
niet al te diepgravende "Engelse" boekwerken als
"Teach yourself Dutch", of "colloquial Dutch", of
"Hugo's Dutch in three months". Vanwaar het
schrijnende gebrek aan Vlaamse interesse in dit soort
"taalexport", enkele uitzonderingen niet te na?

[FV]
>en uiteindelijk beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse
deelnemers mee te kwelen in het Engels

Alhoewel ik het Engels niet echt een welluidende taal
vind, tegenover bijvoorbeeld het Zweeds of het
Braziliaans-Portugees (en ik besef wel degelijk dat
dit een subjectief oordeel is dat linguistisch gezien
geen enkele relevantie heeft), denk ik dat het woord
"kwelen" onrecht doet zowel aan de taal van
Shakespeare, als aan de Vlaamse en Nederlandse
deelnemers die haar met succes hanteren, al dan niet
wisselend. Anglicist zijnde - half een leven geleden
althans - wil ik dan ook elke gelegenheid te baat
nemen om mijn Engels terug een beetje op te poetsen.
May I? En in mijn ijdelheid vind ik het ook leuker te
weten/hopen dat meer mensen mijn briefjes lezen als ik
deze in het Engels opstel.
Het is trouwens de eerste maal dat ik in een
taalkundige nieuwsgroep, met een internationaal
publiek dan ook nog, mag lezen dat meertaligheid, of
een poging daartoe, met zulk een rabiaat misprijzen
wordt behandeld.

Anderzijds kan ik mij inbeelden dat de de meeste
deelnemers w?l ge?nteresseerd zijn in de andere
Laaglandse talen, maar dat niet noodzakelijk iedereen
Nederlands-, Fries- of watdanook-kundig zijn.
Persoonlijk apprecieer ik een Engelstalige bijdrage
over het Schots, of een Schotse brief met een
Engelstalige annex of vertaling meer dan een 100% puur
Caledonische. Ben ik dan de enige die toegeeft niet
alle taalvarianten die gebezigd worden in deze groep
machtig ben, en dat ik soms, na een lange werkdag of
wat dan ook, niet geneigd ben er ?cht veel moeite aan
te besteden? Nee toch?
Misschien ben ik in de eerste plaats niet z?
ge?nteresseerd in het Schots als taal op zich...
Mea culpa, maar op sommige avonden beperk ik mij tot
de Engelse of Nederduitse brieven, net zoals ik in
andere mailgroepen wel de Portugese en Spaanse
bijdragen lees, maar niet altijd de Galicische of
Catalaanse, maar dit terzijde.
In die zin vermoed ik dan ook dat de Engelstalige
nieuwsbrieven van bijvoorbeeld meneer Thijs over
Nederlandse en vooral Belgische/Vlaamse toestanden
geapprecieerd worden, ook door mensen die geen
gebenedijd woord Nederlands spreken. In die zin
apprecieer ik ook de Engelstalige berichten over
Schotse (en soms zeer scheve) toestanden, zonder mij
door de taal van Sean te moeten worstelen.

[FV]
>het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in
>de verschillende talen van de groep

Ja, het zou inderdaad absurd zijn om bijvoorbeeld een
Nederduits grammaticaal onderwerp aan te snijden in
het Fries of het Engels. En zo zijn er ook nog wel tal
van andere onderwerpen te bedenken die bijna smeken om
een bijdrage in de "eigen" taal, vooral dan,
inderdaad, wanneer het gaat om "inzicht te krijgen in
de verschillende talen van de groep" (of bedoelt u "in
de grammaticale structuur van deze of gene taal"?).

Neen, niet noodzakelijk wanneer het gaat over
socio-linguisistische situaties (zie hoger).

En de taal van Wiliam is nu eenmaal wijder verspreid
onder de deelnemers dan de taal van Joost of Hendrik.
En mag ik me hierbij luidop afvragen hoeveel
niet-Nederlandstaligen mijn briefje tot op dit punt
gelezen hebben (waves back!!).

[FV]
>en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele keren
leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van
>zijn eigen taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag
er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit laatste is
onlogisch
>vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van
>de groep om die beter te leren kennen en waarderen.

Ik durf mij ook vragen te stellen bij uw opvatting van
"het logische opzet", en of dit het enige opzet mag
zijn.
Ik dacht dat deze nieuwsgroep *ook* bedoeld was om te
communiceren, om gedachten uit te wisselen over
(minderheids)talen, dialecten, taalvarianten, de
status en perceptie daarvan etc. - wat zeer leerzaam
kan zijn -, en niet enkel en alleen om de respectieve
talen an Sich. Maar ik herhaal mij.

Het is net de variatie, de diverse onderwerpen, de
verschillende talen, *EN* de keuzemogelijkheid die
geboden wordt door de LL-redactie, die deze lijst zo
boeiend maken.

Ik wil mij alvast excuseren, en in de eerste plaats
bij Dhr Vermeulen, voor de toon van deze brief. Hij
mag dan al entwat polemisch zijn, het laatste dat ik
beoog met dit schrijven is wie dan ook persoonlijk te
beledigen.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Frank Verhoft
frank_verhoft at yahoo.com

Resumee in English:
Et pour les anglais le m?me.
(Mijn excuses voor dit gemene grapje, maar ik kon het
echt niet laten ;-))

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 16:33:17 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:33:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.083317.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/L]

> From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]
>
> I most certainly will give feed-back next time I'm in the area.
>
>> From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
>> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)
>> Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie en niet door de
>> Lowland-L-administratie!)) iedereen in de strot geduwd en uiteindelijk
>> beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse deelnemers mee te kwelen in het
>> Engels; het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in de
>> verschillende talen van de groep en het ware toch heel wat logischer
> en vele
>> keren leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van zijn
> eigen
>> taal!
>
> Veeng ich eigelek ooch. Alpeteen ees het Limburgs as treektoal erkaant
> in Holland en in modulle vjariggemok veur sjoe-ele in Bels Limburg. T?s
> allein zow, as ich petoere ens Limburgs sjreef in d?is l?s, das ich nowt
> gein reakse kr??g en ich dan ok van mez?re ejt anes mot keeize. Ich h?b
> toch gjan daze mich versteun.
>
> All?, had oech m?r allemol gowd,
> Roger

Geachte Lowlanders,

Het laatste stukje van Roger Thijs in het Limburgs is zeer zeer leerzaam en

zelfs voor een Westvlaming heel goed begrijpbaar; bovendien geeft het
inzicht hoe al de Nederlandse (lees Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten uitgedeind zijn
vanuit een oudere gemeenschappelijke taal hoe goed men soms ook z'n best
wil
doen om uit te blinken in verschillendheid. Dergelijke op het aktuele
inspelende stukken missen wij in de Lijst; 'k zou zeggen doe zo verder en
heb geen schrik dat ge niet zult gelezen zij.

Beste groeten,

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (03)[D/E/German]

Geachte Lowlanders,

Met mijn zeer kort betoog (in vergelijking met onderstaande de reactie)
wilde ik alleen wijzen op enkele belangrijke oorzaken ?n op de
onbetrouwbaarheid van oppervlakkige waarnemingen door buitenstaanders, ?n
op
de, over het algemeen, al even onbetrouwbare statistieken. Wie zit er
trouwens achter die statistieken? Wie zit er achter de verspreiding van de
vele clich?s die onderhuids pleiten voor een van de kaart vegen van minder
grote talen, om nog niet te spreken van minderheidstalen?

Als ik pleit tegen een vereenvormiging van 'onze' voertaal dan kan dit niet

meteen weggewuifd worden door argumenten die hiermee niets te zien hebben!

Wie dit koppelt aan mogelijke vijandigheid tegenover het Engels of eender
welke andere taal zit behoorlijk fout. Men kan er niet onderuit, een lijst
als Lowland-L dankt zijn bestaan aan de belangstelling voor de
verscheidenheid.

Als men wil allusie maken op de vorige Vlaamse Minister-President is het
wellicht belangrijk kennis te nemen van de verschillende uitgaven over het
Handvest van de Europese Talen onder Van den Brande. De hierin opgenomen
studies wijzen op het economisch belang van de taalverscheidenheid als
drijvende motor van de economie... Wat betreft Flanders Technologie was er
een voorstel om de naam "Vlaanderens Internationale Technologische
Vakbeurs"
te gebruiken met eventueel een Engelstalige ondertitel, en dit ware
waarschijnlijk beter geweest en had dit kunnen de ondergang voorkomen van
deze beurs, want uiteindelijk hebben de eigen Vlaamse bedrijven en Vlaamse
bezoekers afgehaakt omdat het in de laatste afleveringen al Engels was wat
de klok sloeg, uitzondering gemaakt dan voor de grote prestigieuse Waalse
stand -als een oase- waarin het Engels als het ware taboe leek. Zo zie u
maar hoe taal en economie samenhangt en hoe men er zich niet kan vanaf
maken
met enkele opgelapte clich?s.

Beste groeten

Frans Vermeulen

> From: frank verhoft [frank_verhoft at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Language survival
>
> Beste Laaglanders
>
> Op 15 februari schreef Frans Vermeulen [FV]:
>
>> En wat zien we in de eigen Lowland-Lijst:
>> Het Engels wordt ((door de kwalijk opgefokte traditie
> en niet door de Lowland-L-administratie!))
>
> Eerder dan aan "kwalijk opgefokte traditie" denk ik
> dat beweegredenen au fond economisch zijn: ik herinner
> mij nog levendig hoe onze eerste zelf-geproclameerde
> Vlaamse Minister-President uitpakte met "Flanders
> Technology". Voor een individu dat zich regelmatig
> vergaloppeerde in bloed- en bodemtoespraken leek dit
> een excellent geval van economisch opportunisme, of,
> indien u Dhr Van den Brande w?l kan velen, van een
> doordachte strategie in een ruimer perspectief. Aan u
> de keuze.
> En geef toe, het klinkt beter of minstens toch
> internationaler dan "Vlaemsche huisvlijt", en ik
> vermoed ook dat een Angelsaksiche benaming een ietsje
> meer bekendheid genereerde dan een eventuele
> Nederlandse/Vlaamse.
> Internationaal en economisch gezien is het Engels nu
> eenmaal dominant, of wij (u en ik) daar nu de kriebels
> van krijgen of niet. Alhoewel ik huiver bij het
> concept "Global village", wordt het toch tijd om in te
> zien dat de wereld groter is dan ons erf. Zonder dat
> we daarom ons erfgoed moeten of mogen verloochenen.
>
> [FV]
>> iedereen in de strot geduwd
>
> - Om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat Engels nu eenmaal
> andermaal economisch gezien de beste taalkeuze is, ?n
> omdat men in deze geglobaliseerde wereld makkelijker
> tot communicatie kan overgaan in het Engels dan in
> pakweg het Hausa, Awadhi, Sindhi of het Nederlands
> (elk met 20 miljoen sprekers aldus
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/top100.html).
> Trouwens, dit is, mutatis mutandis, zowat dezelfde
> reden waarom Duitstaligen in de grensstreek met onze
> noorderburen aardig massaal Nederlands studeren. Over
> de grens zijn de arbeidsvoorwaarden en dus
> toekomstperspectieven blijkbaar beter dan in de eigen
> streek. Idem dito voor de (bescheiden) opgang van het
> Nederlands bij onze Waalse landgenoten.
> Erst kommt das Fressen, dan kommt die Sprache. Een
> reden waarom 2/3 van de wereldpopulatie w?l meertalig
> is, en zich niet kan bezig houden met dit soort
> (taalpolitieke) luxeproblemen. En neen, Brecht is geen
> kameraad van mij. Maar dit terzijde.
>
> Wil u chocolade slijten aan de andere kant van de
> Noordzee, dan gaat u niet ver komen met "pralines" of
> "sjokolat". Met "Belgian chocolates", daarentegen...
> Ook op het gebied van de wetenschap, film, muziek,
> kunst met grote of kleine K etc., is het Engels
> uitgegroeid tot de lingua franca, of beter communa.
> Wat gaan we doen met een fantastisch
> communicatiemiddel als internet, als we niet bereid
> zijn te communiceren, (desnoods) in een andere taal?
> Anderzijds denk ik niet dat het leren en hanteren van
> een tweede of derde taal afbruik doet of kan doen van
> ons aller moers taal, integendeel. Ook het
> introduceren van anderstalige (lees Engelse) woorden
> in het Nederlands lijkt mij niet echt de taal
> contamineren. Wat zou er nog van de Engelse taal
> overblijven als we haar ontdoen van Romaanse,
> Oudfranse, Latijnse, Griekse, ..., kortom niet-Engelse
> "indringers"? Wat maakt het Engels als taal net zo
> boeiend ?n veelzijdig ?n flexibel? Misschien kunnen we
> daar beter een voorbeeld aan nemen in plaats van naar
> onze navel te staren, of incestueus onze eigen (en
> enige) taal te bedrijven.
>
> In al mijn naiviteit meende ik het adagio dat de taal
> gansch het volk is, zoals eens welluidend verwoord
> door een of andere Vlaemsche paster, pass? was, en dat
> we verder zouden moeten kijken dan ons klokkenspel
> lang is. In al mijn dwaasheid meende ik dat de strijd
> voor de Vlaamse (Nederlandse) taal gestreden was -
> gelukkig maar. Is nu de tijd van geslagen underdogje
> spelen en blatende querulantie niet voorbij?
> Ik dacht ook dat communiceren eerder een kwestie zou
> moeten zijn van geven en nemen, dan van het
> organiseren van dure en onnodige taalpolitieke
> steekspelletjes of carrousels. En o ja, er is nog
> nooit iemand gestorven door het leren van een andere
> taal.
>
> - En om de vrij eenvoudige reden dat het aanbod aan
> Engelse taalcursussen uitgegeven en verspreid door
> Britse uitgevers overweldigend is. Ze mogen dan rare
> jongens zijn, die Britten, van "taalexport"
> gecombineerd met commercie hebben ze wel cheese
> gegeten. Dat beide zichzelf versterken, hoeft geen
> betoog.
> Mag ik hierbij ook even opmerken dat het binnen- en
> buitenlands aanbod aan degelijke en uitgebalanceerde
> cursussen Nederlands voor anderstaligen eerder
> beperkt, en dan nog vooral van Nederlandse
> ("Hollandse") signature is, zelfs de populaire maar
> niet al te diepgravende "Engelse" boekwerken als
> "Teach yourself Dutch", of "colloquial Dutch", of
> "Hugo's Dutch in three months". Vanwaar het
> schrijnende gebrek aan Vlaamse interesse in dit soort
> "taalexport", enkele uitzonderingen niet te na?
>
> [FV]
>> en uiteindelijk beginnen de Vlaamse en de Nederlandse
> deelnemers mee te kwelen in het Engels
>
> Alhoewel ik het Engels niet echt een welluidende taal
> vind, tegenover bijvoorbeeld het Zweeds of het
> Braziliaans-Portugees (en ik besef wel degelijk dat
> dit een subjectief oordeel is dat linguistisch gezien
> geen enkele relevantie heeft), denk ik dat het woord
> "kwelen" onrecht doet zowel aan de taal van
> Shakespeare, als aan de Vlaamse en Nederlandse
> deelnemers die haar met succes hanteren, al dan niet
> wisselend. Anglicist zijnde - half een leven geleden
> althans - wil ik dan ook elke gelegenheid te baat
> nemen om mijn Engels terug een beetje op te poetsen.
> May I? En in mijn ijdelheid vind ik het ook leuker te
> weten/hopen dat meer mensen mijn briefjes lezen als ik
> deze in het Engels opstel.
> Het is trouwens de eerste maal dat ik in een
> taalkundige nieuwsgroep, met een internationaal
> publiek dan ook nog, mag lezen dat meertaligheid, of
> een poging daartoe, met zulk een rabiaat misprijzen
> wordt behandeld.
>
> Anderzijds kan ik mij inbeelden dat de de meeste
> deelnemers w?l ge?nteresseerd zijn in de andere
> Laaglandse talen, maar dat niet noodzakelijk iedereen
> Nederlands-, Fries- of watdanook-kundig zijn.
> Persoonlijk apprecieer ik een Engelstalige bijdrage
> over het Schots, of een Schotse brief met een
> Engelstalige annex of vertaling meer dan een 100% puur
> Caledonische. Ben ik dan de enige die toegeeft niet
> alle taalvarianten die gebezigd worden in deze groep
> machtig ben, en dat ik soms, na een lange werkdag of
> wat dan ook, niet geneigd ben er ?cht veel moeite aan
> te besteden? Nee toch?
> Misschien ben ik in de eerste plaats niet z?
> ge?nteresseerd in het Schots als taal op zich...
> Mea culpa, maar op sommige avonden beperk ik mij tot
> de Engelse of Nederduitse brieven, net zoals ik in
> andere mailgroepen wel de Portugese en Spaanse
> bijdragen lees, maar niet altijd de Galicische of
> Catalaanse, maar dit terzijde.
> In die zin vermoed ik dan ook dat de Engelstalige
> nieuwsbrieven van bijvoorbeeld meneer Thijs over
> Nederlandse en vooral Belgische/Vlaamse toestanden
> geapprecieerd worden, ook door mensen die geen
> gebenedijd woord Nederlands spreken. In die zin
> apprecieer ik ook de Engelstalige berichten over
> Schotse (en soms zeer scheve) toestanden, zonder mij
> door de taal van Sean te moeten worstelen.
>
> [FV]
>> het logische opzet is nochtans inzicht te krijgen in
>> de verschillende talen van de groep
>
> Ja, het zou inderdaad absurd zijn om bijvoorbeeld een
> Nederduits grammaticaal onderwerp aan te snijden in
> het Fries of het Engels. En zo zijn er ook nog wel tal
> van andere onderwerpen te bedenken die bijna smeken om
> een bijdrage in de "eigen" taal, vooral dan,
> inderdaad, wanneer het gaat om "inzicht te krijgen in
> de verschillende talen van de groep" (of bedoelt u "in
> de grammaticale structuur van deze of gene taal"?).
>
> Neen, niet noodzakelijk wanneer het gaat over
> socio-linguisistische situaties (zie hoger).
>
> En de taal van Wiliam is nu eenmaal wijder verspreid
> onder de deelnemers dan de taal van Joost of Hendrik.
> En mag ik me hierbij luidop afvragen hoeveel
> niet-Nederlandstaligen mijn briefje tot op dit punt
> gelezen hebben (waves back!!).
>
> [FV]
>> en het ware toch heel wat logischer en vele keren
> leerzamer voor de medeleden dat ieder zich bediene van
>> zijn eigen taal! Een samenvatting in het Engels mag
> er dan wel bijkomen, maar zelfs dit laatste is
> onlogisch
>> vermits iedere deelnemer geacht wordt taalgevoelig te
> zijn en zeker open te staan voor de andere talen van
>> de groep om die beter te leren kennen en waarderen.
>
> Ik durf mij ook vragen te stellen bij uw opvatting van
> "het logische opzet", en of dit het enige opzet mag
> zijn.
> Ik dacht dat deze nieuwsgroep *ook* bedoeld was om te
> communiceren, om gedachten uit te wisselen over
> (minderheids)talen, dialecten, taalvarianten, de
> status en perceptie daarvan etc. - wat zeer leerzaam
> kan zijn -, en niet enkel en alleen om de respectieve
> talen an Sich. Maar ik herhaal mij.
>
> Het is net de variatie, de diverse onderwerpen, de
> verschillende talen, *EN* de keuzemogelijkheid die
> geboden wordt door de LL-redactie, die deze lijst zo
> boeiend maken.
>
> Ik wil mij alvast excuseren, en in de eerste plaats
> bij Dhr Vermeulen, voor de toon van deze brief. Hij
> mag dan al entwat polemisch zijn, het laatste dat ik
> beoog met dit schrijven is wie dan ook persoonlijk te
> beledigen.
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Frank Verhoft
> frank_verhoft at yahoo.com
>
> Resumee in English:
> Et pour les anglais le m?me.
> (Mijn excuses voor dit gemene grapje, maar ik kon het
> echt niet laten ;-))

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 20:40:34 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:40:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.124034.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Frank Verhoft [frank.verhoft at pandora.be]
Subject: Language survival

Geachte heer Vermeulen, beste Laaglanders

Dhr Thijs schreef op 15 februari
>Veeng ich eigelek ooch. Alpeteen ees het Limburgs as treektoal erkaant
>in Holland en in modulle vjariggemok veur sjoe-ele in Bels Limburg. T??s
>allein zow, as ich petoere ens Limburgs sjreef in d??is l??s, das ich nowt

>gein reakse kr????g en ich dan ok van mez??re ejt anes mot keeize. Ich
h??b
>toch gjan daze mich versteun.

Op 16 februari schreef Frans Vermeulen:
>Het laatste stukje van Roger Thijs in het Limburgs is zeer zeer leerzaam
en zelfs voor een
>Westvlaming heel goed begrijpbaar; bovendien geeft het inzicht hoe al de
Nederlandse
>(lees Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten uitgedeind zijn vanuit een oudere
gemeenschappelijke taal
>hoe goed men soms ook z'n best wil doen om uit te blinken in
verschillendheid.

Na ettelijke malen dit fragment gelezen te hebben, blijven er nog steeds
vragen in mij opkomen. Jammer genoeg is in mijn geval "ge??nteresseerd"
niet synoniem met "getalenteerd", en smeekt de overjaarse student in mij om
wat meer uitleg bij bovenstaande regels, zowel aan de heer Vermeulen als
aan de andere Laaglanders.

Mijn vragen:
1. Op welke manier geeft het Limburgse fragment "inzicht hoe al de
Nederlandse (lees Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten zijn uitgedeind vanuit een oudere,
gemeenschappelijke taal?"
Het woord "uitdeinen" suggereert een kerngebied, waar situeerde zich dat?
En wat was er zoal te vinden in dat kerngebied?
Wat bedoelt u met "een oudere, gemeenschappelijke taal" die uitdeinde?
Indien u bedoelt Gemeengermaans, Westgermaans, of de Westgermaanse
varianten zoals gesproken door de Friezen, Franken en Saksen, drie stammen
(of stamverbanden, zo u wil) die hun politieke, militaire, economsiche en
taalkundige invloed deden gelden op de gebieden waar men nu Nederlands
spreekt, dan is deze vraag een beetje overbodig mijnentwege.
Of bedoelt u een soort Proto-Vlaams, Oer-Vlaams, Uhr-Vlaams?

2. Wat bedoelt u met Oud-Vlaams?
Aangezien ik deze term nog niet ben mogen tegenkomen in mijn studieboeken,
kan ik hem niet plaatsen. Kan u mij aub helpen deze term duiden, liefst
geografisch, linguistisch en in de tijd.
Is deze term inwisselbaar bijvoorbeeld met wat Van Loon "(westelijk)
Oudnederlands noemt" (in bijv. _Historische fonologie van het Nederlands_,
Leuven 1986, pagina 36), de variant die men *grosso modo* ten westen van de
Schelde sprak in de circa de 10de, 11de, 12de eeuw? Op deze pagina zet hij
het "(westelijk) Oudnederlands af tegenover de Oostnederlandse dialecten
(niet in absolute zin trouwens, maar enkel om het allofonisch karakter van
een taalkundig gegeven te illustreren dat andere "resultaten" genereerde
aan weerszijden van de Schelde).
Of verwijst Oud-Vlaams in louter geografische zin naar het (latere)
historische graafschap Vlaanderen, de drie huidige provincies (Oost, West
en Zeeuws) plus Frans-Vlaanderen, of naar het huidige, moderne Vlaanderen
tussen de Belgische kust en de Duitse grens?
En welke dialecten vallen onder wat u noemt "AL de Nederlandse (lees
Oud-Vlaamse) dialecten" (mijn nadruk).

3. Ook de zinsnede "hoe goed men soms ook z'n best wil doen om uit te
blinken in verschillendheid" stemt mij tot nadenken. Hoe bedoelt u dat?
Hebben taalkundigen als Berteloot, Gysseling, Van Loey, Vangassen e.a. zich
dan al die jaren enkel maar bezig gehouden met aan te tonen hoe mensen zich
in de loop van de geschiedenis hebben uitgesloofd "om uit te blinken in
verschillendheid"? En bedoelt u met de verscheidenheid de verschillende
accenten, dialecten, varianten?

Iek '??p iel 'ard te meuge diele in a experties, en nateurl??k oe??k in die
van d' ander Laoglanders.

Met vriendelijke groeten en alvast van harte bedankt!


Frank Verhoft

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: Language death

Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Therefore the answer is a
>relatively simple one - bring the child up in its
>native tongue, and in the official national or
>regional language. That way the child has a good
>knowledge of its own identity and culture through its
>own language, while being at absolutely no
>disadvantage (perceived or otherwise) to fellow
>nationals - in fact in some cases it will be at an
>advantage since it will probably find learning further
>languages later in educational life easier.

The last point is one of the main reasons why many (non speaker) parents
are
interested in sending their bairns to Gaelic medium nursery schools. Gaelic

is of course percieved as a 'language'. Is the same possible for Scots.
Probably not at the moment because many people still percieve Scots to be
'bad English' or worse 'slang'.

Roger Thijs wrote:

>I think this only contributes to survival if it is combined with strong
>nationalism.

Nationalism means different things to different people.
From, in my opinion legitimate desire for people living in a particular
'territory' to have control over their own destiny - this includes all
people living in the 'territory' an not just those with a particular
'ethnicity'.
To we are the 'master race' - no need to mention where that leads.

Colin Wilson wrote:

>For these reasons, although I'd be very pleased to be shown to be
>wrong, I have large doubts about the effectiveness of this kind of
>solution in preserving endangered languages, unless it is supported
>by other measures in the broader community. On its own, it will
>certainly produce people who can express *some* things in the
>endangered language: my question is, is that really enough? If
>people cannot express themselves fully in a particular language,
>naturally they will turn to another in which they can.

Quite right. If minority or lesser used languages are to survive they have
to be used (as far as possible) for all aspects of daily life. Otherwise
they juist become marginalised and eventually redundant.

>Television, on the other hand, has been much more damaging because
>it teaches people how to say a great many things in English that no
>school-teacher would ever have taught them.

Thus contributing to the marginalisation of the language and its eventual
redundancy.
In the case of Scotland, most Scots on TV usually presents Scots speakers
at
the worst as being 'socially inferior' or 'uneducated' and at best being
'old fashioned and uncool'. Hardly the stuff to boost self esteem among
Scots speakers. The amount of (any) Scots on TV can be measured in Hours
per
decade and not hours per week.

Thomas wrote:

>In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
>speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in

>the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we
did
>not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve
its
>goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to

>Scots I hope this is still the case.

Things have and are thankfully changing. The 'tawse' or 'lochgelly' has now

been outlawed thanks to European Union human rights legislation. More
schools are accepting the use of Scots by pupils. Some teachers now
actively
encourage it.

Ian wrote:

>Scots activists would probably
>think they would lose support if their cause was
>linked to Scottish Nationalism.

Indeed this is beginning to occur. Many in the labour party see
'campaigning
for recognition etc.' for the Scots language as nothing but rampant SNPism.

The Idea of linguistic rights is alien to them. Though many of the come
from
'socialist' backgrounds and argue for 'equality' this only goes as far as
our 'right' to be equally English.

>although I am a great fan of the Scots tongue and am
>keen to see it used regularly, I do not propose that
>it should *replace* English, or even that it should be
>used in all contexts. Business meetings of the future
>will take place in English, computers will use English

Once again if Scots is not used for all aspects of daily life it becomes
marginalised and eventually redundant.
Business meetings can take place in any language if all present speak it. I

of course accept English as the defacto lingua franca. I've 'talked' Scots
to Sandy about computer programming in a chatroom. I pretty sure we'd have
no problem doing the same face to face. Computer software may well be in
English because the economics behind producing Irish, Gaelic, Welsh or
Scots
versions is seen as prohibitive. Though even this could be used as a
marketing ploy. Do all the people who use Bank of Scotland (Banca na
h-alba)
Gaelic language cheques really speak Gaelic? This helps stop
marginalisation. Of course for the above, written Scots would probably need

a (more) standard form for it to be taken seriously.
Before the New year a well known supermarket chain produced an advertising
leaflet, and delivered it, I assume, to every household in Scotland,
selling
mostly alcohol and sindry product assumed to lessen the after effects of
the
afore mentioned product. The slogan at the top of the leaflet was 'Aw the
best'. the rest was of course in English. The same supermarket chain has
little signs allover the place claiming to be 'Proud to serve scotland'. I
myself find marketing ploys like that a bit silly and see through them. But

using the Scots language for advertising is great - and we as consumers
should demand more. The socialits may all want us to be equally 'English'
but capitalist gits like me say vote with your money!

>- even if you don't think that should be the case, the
>fact is it *will* be. Parents and governments will,
>quite rightly, look down on any attempts to revive or
>preserve minority languages which threaten their
>children's knowledge of English.

That's why it's important to show that bilingualism or for that matter
bidialectism is an asset not a threat.
As long as Scots has no perceived status it will be seen as a threat by
many
parents. No one should be forced to learn Scots if it ever became a serious

part of the curriculum.

Roger Thijs wrote:

>I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find any of
>these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several hours in the
>center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day,

The same is often heard in Scotland. People (Journalists) hostile to the
Scots language movement (if I can call it that) often claim never to have
encounerd Scots speakers. Of course not. It the situations they find
themselves in English is the expected language of communication. Get a job
with a building company (as a builder), go to a working class pub etc.
You'll hear Scots there.

Stefan Israel wrote:

>Many of my linguist colleagues trying to investigate these
>stigmatized varieties have run into social brick walls this way.
> They often have to get a speaker to introduce them gradually
>into the right social context.

This is also true for Scots. Even in my own family. My umwhile aunt only
spoke Scots to family and friends. If a stranger came into the house she
would, in mid sentence, switch to English. Though I did once experience the

humerous situation where my sister and her daughter came to visit. My
sister's daughter grew up in England and can only speak English. My aunt of

course didn't switch because she was family. The poor lass couldn't
understand a word.

Ron Wrote:

>In such a case, it is not impossible to revive a language on the basis of
>extant knowledge.  Until the early part of the 20th century, most people
>assumed that this was impossible.  However, the case of Hebrew has shown
that
>it *is* possible under certain conditions.

>There are now about 5 million speakers of it, and of these close to
>4.5 million are native speakers.

Are these native speakers monolingual? Do they speak another language and
if
so is it with native like fluency?
Is Hebrew L1 and another language L2? Or are they truly bilingual?

Andy Eagle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

> Andy, you asked with reference to Hebrew speakers:
>
> Are these native speakers monolingual? Do they speak another language and
if
> so is it with native like fluency?
> Is Hebrew L1 and another language L2? Or are they truly bilingual?

It is impossible to generalize in the case of a population as diverse as
that of Israel (even if we leave out the non-Jewish parts of it).

I dare say that nowadays a very high and growing percentage of the
Hebrew-speaking population uses Hebrew as first language, especially now
that two or three generations of native or at least near native speakers
have been raising their children to be native Hebrew speakers.  Especially
in urban communities there is much diversity.  People may or may not use
one or more languages other than Hebrew at home (and we are talking many,
many languages in toto).  However, there is much pressure to use Hebrew
outside the home.  Most native-born children end up with very high levels
of proficiency, and I think in most cases it would be hard to distinguish
L1 speakers from L2 speakers by adult age.  Especially kibbutzim ('kibbutz'
= a type of commune) produce predominantly native speakers, certainly those
that retain communal childcare.  In the latter, children are not raised by
their parents but live in specific children's quarters within a kibbutz,
having predominantly contacts with other Hebrew-speaking children and with
teachers, only seeingtheir family of birth on visits.

We have a few subscribers from Israel.  Maybe they can answer Andy's
question more competently.

Let me describe "my own" ("adoptive") Israeli kibbutz family as an
example.  Rachel and Menachem, the parents, immigrated from Poland (Lodz).
They are native Yiddish speakers and speak Polish with native proficiency.
Ilana, their oldest daughter, was born in Poland and began life as a native
Polish speaker, arriving in Israel as a 6-year-old.  In her adult years
(when I met her) her Polish was still fluent but somewhat deficient.  She
uses Hebrew as her dominant language and appears to be a native speaker to
outsiders.  Her personal notes and mumblings were all in Hebrew, as far as
I could determine.  The next child, Michael, was born in Poland, too, and
was spoken to in Polish when he was an infant.  He was less than a year old
when the family arrived in Israel.  At first his parents kept speaking
Polish to him, and he first picked up Arabic because they first lived in an
immigrants' area in which the majority came from Arabic-speaking regions of
the world, and there were also constant contacts with Arab-Israelis.  The
family moved into a kibbutz with communal childcare when Michael was about
3 years old.  He was immersed in Hebrew and in his late teens (when I met
him) spoke Hebrew the same way truly native speakers do.  I asked him about
it, and he said he considered Hebrew his only, his "native" language.  He
no longer spoke Polish or chose not to speak or listen to it (while Ilana
did), and he claimed not to understand Yiddish, though I saw signs to show
that he understood it at least somewhat.  Sara, the youngest, was born in
the kibbutz and was raised with a clear predominance of Hebrew, for by the
time she was an infant the entire family could speak Hebrew, and Sara only
came for visits from her Hebrew-only living and schooling environment.  She
told me she only understood snippets of Polish and Yiddish.  Occasionally
she would throw in Polish and Yiddish phrases in a teasing or joking manner
when she spoke with her parents in Hebrew, and she sometimes teased me with
Yiddish expressions because I spoke mostly Yiddish with her parents.  She
had a strong Hebrew "accent" when she did so, as strong an "accent" as in
English, which she had begun to learn in school.  Most definitely, Sara is
a native Hebrew speaker.  I am not sure how to classify Michael.  He said
he forgot all of his Arabic and Polish and considered himself a monolingual
Hebrew speaker, though he, too, learned English as a foreign language in
school.  The parents still tend to speak Polish in private talks with
Ilana.  They speak Hebrew to her when other people are around.  They speak
only Hebrew to the other two children, and these children help keep their
Hebrew up-to-date.  (All three children spoke only Hebrew with me, though
occasionally they tried out their English on me.)

I hope this will help shed some more light on the possibility of language
revival.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 20:54:21 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:54:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.125421.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German, two spellings) and English.]

Beste Leeglanners,
     Vundaag' b?n ik insneet, un daarwegen st??r ik Ju nochmaal twee
neddersassische/nedderd??tsche Snee-Riemels f?r Kinner to, mit mien
ingelsch ?versetten, un een vun de Riemels ok mit phoneetsche Schrift
(SAMPA).  De Texten hebbt Berend Kl?nne un ik al in'n Christmaand 1998
br?cht.  Dat eerste Riemel k?mmt ut de Provinz Drenthe in de Nedderlannen
un is in 'n drenthschen Dialekt.  Dat hett de drenthsche Sanger Ab Drijver
bekanntmaakt.  Dat tweede Riemel k?mmt ut Noordd??tschland, is in 'n
noordsassischen Dialekt un is vun Klaus Groth (1819-1899).  Dat lett so as
of "Fru Meddern" in dat tweede Riemel dat s?lvige is as "Fru Holle." Ik
will h?pen, de Riemels seggt Ju to.
     Fr?ndliche Gr?ten,
     Reinhard/Ron

Beste Leyglanders,
     Vundaag' b?n ik in-sneyd, un daar wegen st?yr ik Ju noch maal twey
Neddersassische/Nedderd??tsche sney-rymels v?r kinder tou, mit myn Ingelsch
??versetten, un eyn vun dey rymels ook mit foneetsche schrift (SAMPA).  Dey
teksten hebt Berend Kl?nne un ik al in d'n Kristmaand 1998 br?cht.  Dat
eyrste rymel k?mt uut dey provinss Drenthe in dey Nedderlanden un is in 'n
Drenthschen dialekt.  Dat het dey Drenthsche sanger Ab Drijver bekand
maakt.  Dat tweyde rymel k?mt uut Nord-D?ytschland, is in 'n
Nord-Sassischen dialekt un is vun Klaus Groth (1819-1899).  Dat lett so as
of "Fru Meddern" in dat tweyde rymel dat s?lvige is as "Fru Holle." Ik wil
h??pen, dey rymels segt Ju tou.
     Vr?ndliche gr?yten,
     Reinhard/Ron

Dear Lowlanders,
     Being snowed in today, I thought I might as well (re)introduce you to
two Low Saxon/Low German children's poems about snow, accompanied by my
English translations, and one of the poems with phonetic transcription
(SAMPA).  Berend Kl?nne and I first presented the texts in December 1998.
The first poem is from the Province Drenthe in the Netherlands and is in a
Drenthe dialect.  It was made famous by the Drenthe singer Ab Drijver.  The
second poem is from Northern Germany, in in a North Saxon dialect and was
written by Klaus Groth (1819-1899).  "Fru Meddern" in the second poem seems
to be the same as "Fru Holle" (German "Frau Holle").  I hope you will enjoy
the peoms.
     Friendly regards,
     Reinhard/Ron

***

(1)

Vrouw Holle

Stillek dele valt de snei
op witte voten komp de nacht
Vrouw Holle nemp heur beddesprei
en schud uut peul de vlokkenvracht

Stroek en bomen staot zo bloot
gien blad um an te trekken
Vrouw Holle redt heur uut de nood
en giet ze underdekken

De wereld was 'n aole man
met vet in doezend rimpels plooid
Vrouw Holle meuk er pankouk van
met zukersnei en riem bestrooid.

Vrouw Holle kik uut 't hemelraom
en lacht ies stil tevreden
Heur pewul is leeg, de wereld blaank
een witte hof van Eden.


Mother Holle

Softly the snow comes falling down.
Night is arriving on white paws.
Mother Holle takes her bedspread
And shakes the flake load from the bed.

Bushes and trees are standing so bare.
No single leaf they have to wear.
Mother Holle saves them from their woe
And gives them cover under snow.

The world was an old man
With fat draped in a dozen folds.
Mother Holle makes pancakes from it,
Sprinkled with powdered sugar and cream [?].

Mother Holle looks from heaven's window
And smiles with quiet satisfaction.
Her pillow empty, the world all bright
A Garden of Eden, beaming white.

***

(2)

(Original)

De Snee

De Snee ut 'n Heben
kummt eben, alleben
in Grimmelgewimmel
hendal ut 'n Himmel,
hendal ut de Wulken
as Duben, as Swulken,
as Feddern, as Duun
op de H??s, op 'n Tuun,
as Duun un as Feddern:

Fru Meddern! Fru Meddern!
Herinner! Kruup ?nner
un roop alle Kinner!
De H?hner, de K?ken!
Sch?llt kamen, sch?llt kieken!
Sch?llt kieken un sehn,
de groten, de kleen'n,
alleben, alleben
den Snee ut 'n Heben.


(Phonetic)
dEI snEI

dEI snEI ?u:t=n 'he:b=m
k`Umt ?e:b=m ?a'le:b=m
?In 'grIm=lgevIm=l
hEn'dQ:l ?u:t=n 'hIm=l
hEn'dQ:l ?u:te 'vUlk=N
?as 'du:b=m ?as 'svUlk=N
?as 'fEd3n ?as du:n
?Op dEI hy:.s ?Op=m tu:n
?as du:n ?Un ?as 'fEd3n

fru: 'mEd3n fru: 'mEd3n
hE'rIn3 kru:p ?Yn3
?Un roUp ?ale 'k`In3
dEI 'h9In3 dEI 'k`y:k=N
SYlt k`Q:m: SYlt 'k`i:k=N
SYlt 'k`i:k=N ?Un zEIn
dEI 'groUt=n dEI klEIn
?a'le:b=m ?a'le:b=m
dEn snEI ?u:t=n 'he:b=m


(Translation, R. F. Hahn)

Snow

Snow from the sky
keeps coming, all over
in dense blurry flurry
down from the heavens
down from the clouds
as doves and as swallows,
as feathers, as down
on the houses, the fence,
as down and as feathers:

Mrs. Meddern! Mrs. Meddern!
Down, down now! Come down
and call all the children!
The chickens, the chicks!
Must come and must look!
Must look and must see,
the big ones, the small ones,
all over, all over
the snow from the sky.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 01:30:01 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:30:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.FEB.2001.173001.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (02)

Criostoir et al,

I hope other members will forgive us discussing Irish, but I do feel
the issues are similar to those for other languages.

There are two fundamental points to any linguistic study:
1) All languages are equal in the needs of their users
2) Language is about communication

There are far-reaching consequences here.

English is the language of international business and computing. Fact.
There is no point in lesser-used languages (or any others, for that
matter) trying to compete with English in such arenas - to do so would
hinder communication (point 2), but it does not make other languages
inferior (point 1). It is simply that 'World English' (a slightly
simplified Americanized version) is the one used. English itself has
had to borrow hundreds of thousands of terms from other languages over
time because it was not used in the contexts they were used in
(Latinate legal terms, Greek medical terms, localized terms for things
found by colonizers such as 'chocolate' or 'bungalows'). Likewise it
is futile for supporters of lesser-used languages to pile money and
resources into developing their own terms for English words in these
arenas - they will happen naturally, and usually though not always the
English will be borrowed direct (eg German 'Website', 'Internet',
'Links', 'downloaden' BUT Scots 'wabsteid'). I do get concerned when
activists get bogged down in arguments about such pointless issues
when there is so much work to be done making their lesser-used
languages more relevant to modern society generally. These languages
will never be relevant in scientific journals or documents on
international management techniques. They *can* be relevant in general
society - in the home, in pubs and clubs, on the sportsfield etc.

At a certain level national languages, particularly English, will
always be used - because of point 2). Lesser-used languages have to
target their areas of use carefully - based on the genuine needs of
their users rather than on trying to compete with others.

If we take Irish, the signs are encouraging, although you still wonder
whether it might be a little too late. For a long time activists in
Northern Ireland have annoyed reasonable people (even Catholic
Nationalists) by making apparently ludicrous demands. However, there
are indications with new adverts from the All-Ireland Language Board
(simply depicting Irish being used in a restaurant for example - no
threat to anybody, just genuine use) and other policies that are being
suggested that maybe, just maybe, the right people are leading Irish
the right way, so that one day it will again be heard in the right
cultural context (e.g. Gaelic games, where at present it often does
not go beyond a symbolic level) and in the right social context (it
would be nice to see the day when you would always hear Irish after a
trip to any major shopping centre on the island). Lowlanders may feel
they have something to learn from this.

Regards,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]

Georg,

> Under the title Language survival
> Gabriele Kahn and Ian James Parsley discussed aspects of
trilinguality of
> children. Gabriele Kahn did not see a principal problem, Ian James
Parsley had doubts if
> a full competence of three languages is possible.

Well, that's not quite what I meant (the fault is probably mine, I
wasn't clear enough). I don't doubt that a full competence in three
languages is possible, but I do doubt that it is possible *at the same
time*. It could be that the children get so used to 'switching' that
the 'changeover' of second language happens quite naturally and within
minutes. However, I know that to 'change' from having Scots as my
second language to either German or Spanish takes me *days*. On a
recent trip to Spain I could hardly ask for directions at the airport
because the words just didn't come to me, and it was a good 48 hours
before I was remotely confident. However, after a week I would have
had trouble switching into Scots or German immediately.

> And it does not go really fully automatically - parents apparently
do invest
> more time in the language aspects of education than  in a standard
> one-language situation.

I think this backs up my point to an extent (actually it's not really
*my* point, it's other researchers'). The point is that it *would* go
fully automatically if the children were *bilingual*. Once they have
to be trilingual (or multilingual) then more time and effort will have
to be spent training them to recognize one language from another and
ensuring that they do not use words from one in another.

Or not, as the case may be? I await responses with interest!

Regards,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

You wrote:

> I don't doubt that a full competence in three
> languages is possible, but I do doubt that it is possible *at the same
> time*.

I know exactly the experience you are relating.  "At the same time" is the
operative phrase here.  Yes, it is very familiar to me.  However, I have
noticed in my own case that foreign languages compete for a place only then
when they are still at a type of intensive learning stage.  I can
comfortably switch between three languages.  If I learn another one and my
mind is really preoccupied with this intensive learning process, the
language that occupied that compartment previously is thrown out, at least
temporarily.  However, once this new language passes a certain mark after
which it becomes virtually second nature it seems to be shifted from the
learning compartment to the compartment of fluent languages, and a new
language may move into the vacated compartment.  This is not to say that I
stop learning any of the languages.  It only means that my mind is no
longer preoccupied with learning those that have moved from the basement
into the penthouse.  However, I think that children, certainly younger
ones, seem to have a much easier time with this, and to us adults it may
seem as though they acquire three languages at the same time, comfortably.

I wrote about the Israeli family.  I need to add that the three children
are raising their own native Hebrew speakers now, children that are not or
hardly influenced by the first languages of their parents and grandparents.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 16:33:28 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:33:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.FEB.2001.083328.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (03)
[D/E/German]

A chairde,

Please excuse me for the delayed reply to what Ian
asserted.

> >You can't get round the fact that some of the
> essence of
> >the language will be gone, because it already has
> gone
> >(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum
> of
> >colours - colour names are now expressed on a
> >one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather
> than
> >on their own scale).

I would like to know where Ian read this, as it is not
the case. The Irish I speak and all Irish I come into
contact with retains the native Gaelic colour
spectrum, which is structurally mismatched to the
English version. Whilst I understand that there are
moves within "official Irish" (i.e., the monitored
literary standard) to impose an alien colour scheme,
the facts on the ground remain that we use our Gaelic
system:

liath = Eng. grey, sky-blue
glas = Eng. blue, aquamarine, torqouise, grass-green.
gorm = Eng. navy blue (also "duine gorm" = a black
   person)
uaine = Eng. forest-green, dark green, green-brown.
donn = Eng. mud-brown, soil-dark
dubh = Eng. deep black, ink-black
is dorcha = darkening (of all colours)
is geal = brightening (of all colours, also used to
       describe white)
corcra = Eng. purple, burgundy
b?n = Eng. white
dearg = Eng. red, scarlet, maroon
rua = Eng. red of hair
bu? = Eng. yellow, orange

I have noticed that orange is described in the
literary standard as "or?iste" which is clearly a loan
from English, although no-one uses it in everyday
speech. The Irish for "Orangemen" is "na Fir Bu?"
which also plays with the Irish allusive "bu?" to mean
"thankful" (i.e., "bu?ochas" = gratitude, effusive
praise).

I hope I haven't overstepped the mark but a correction
was required.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Cr?ost?ir.

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Ron,

> I know exactly the experience you are relating.  "At the same time"
is the
> operative phrase here.  Yes, it is very familiar to me.  However, I
have
> noticed in my own case that foreign languages compete for a place
only then
> when they are still at a type of intensive learning stage.  I can
> comfortably switch between three languages.

Some researchers have suggested three are possible (I wonder if in my
case English and Scots take the first two 'compartments', so actually
German, Spanish and others are competing for a third). However, in my
case, arriving to live in Granada for a few months in early 1998, I
had to 'throw out' fluent German (fluent to the extent that at the
time I chose to read German rather than English on multilingual signs)
in order to have a go at novice's Spanish. My suspicion is still,
therefore, that most people can only manage two *at the same time*,
and that those who appear to manage three (or more) are simply those
who can manage the 'changeover' between them quickly. But then, I
would not consider myself a natural linguist (I'm more mathematically
minded), so my experiences are by no means necessarily definitive.

Further notes on this appear on pages 362-3 of:

Crystal, D., 1987. _Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_. Cambridge,
New York and Melbourne: Cambridge University.

Regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Feb 17 16:58:38 2001
From: parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk (Ian James Parsley)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:58:38 -0000
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.FEB.2001.165838.0000.PARSLEYIJ@YAHOO.COM>

Cristoir et al

I am glad to hear that Cristoir's own Irish and that which others use
with him retains the older Celtic colour spectrum. It is also helpful
to this list, because it leads on nicely to the points we were making.

In what I call 'Learners' Irish', i.e. that often taught at courses in
Belfast, colours are assigned directly to their English equivalents:

b?n - white
liath - grey
glas - green
gorm - blue
donn - brown
dubh - black
dearg - red
oraiste - orange

'Rua' is retained for the hair colour, but other than that the only
difference with English is that 'glas' is used to describe a 'grey'
horse. I believe this indeed based on the modern standard as Cristoir
suggests. These courses also have a tendency towards 'Anglicized
simplification' not only with vocabulary but also with grammar (e.g.
conjunctions are simplified) and pronunciation (the /r/ in words such
as 'Eire' and 'Doire' is very distinct from anything in English, but
it is pronounced as in English even by teachers at some courses in
Belfast).

However, not all courses do this. Some teach 'Donegal Irish'
(occasionally played up as 'Ulster Gaelic'), and these, I would
imagine, retain all the structures of the Donegal Gaeltacht, including
a dative case distinction which is generally lost in 'Standard Irish'.

But I am missing the point, which is that this backs up what other
list members, most particularly Colin, have been saying in recent
submissions. Firstly, it shows that there would appear to be a divide
in terms of purpose with Irish. Some people seem content to teach a
'watered down' version, and even to base the 'standard' on it, and I
have been told even by Foras na Gaeilige Board members that this is
deliberate to simplify the language and therefore entice more people
to learn it. Personally I would feel betrayed by such a version, and
many others are determined not only that this particular lesser-used
language should survive, but that it should survive 'properly'.

Scots in Ireland is more obviously divided in this way. People are
content to use 'speir' in all positions for 'ask' simply because it
looks different, even though Scots speakers actually distinguish
between 'speir' (meaning more 'consult') and 'ask' (meaning more
'request'). Many activists are not remotely concerned even about using
'anent' ('about' in the sense of 'regarding', NOT 'approximately'!)
properly, and old words that have long since been lost in Ulster or
even in Scots generally are not only revived, but their meanings
extended. I cannot describe a lot of the Scots you see even in
official publications in Ireland as anything other than barbaric, with
a complete disregard for the intricacies of grammar and idiom but far
too much attention paid to 'maximally differentiating' from English,
while failing to recognize that Scots words that look like English are
as much a part of the Scots tongue as those that aren't. I personally
have no time for this 'cheat version' (nor for the 'learners'
standard' version of Irish) - I hold to the firm belief that if you
are going to teach it, you teach it properly. But that's maybe because
I'm not politically motivated?

Regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley


From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 21:32:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:32:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.FEB.2001.133206.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 18.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

At 16:58 17/02/01 +0000, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Some people seem content to teach a
>'watered down' version, and even to base the 'standard' on it, and I
>have been told even by Foras na Gaeilige Board members that this is
>deliberate to simplify the language and therefore entice more people
>to learn it.
>I cannot describe a lot of the Scots you see even in
>official publications in Ireland as anything other than barbaric, with
>a complete disregard for the intricacies of grammar and idiom but far
>too much attention paid to 'maximally differentiating' from English,

The irony here is that the Irish nationalists want to create
a language that's *more* like English, whereas the British nationalists
want to create one that's *less*, all of which is exactly the opposite of
what common sense would suggest.

Basically, I agree with every word that Ian James Parsely wrote and,
in my view, these anecdotes serve to illustrate the pitfalls in front
of anyone who seeks to revive a language into spoken usage. It's
especially unfortunate given that, with these two languages, there
are still speakers who do know these languages as living forms of
expression. Unfortunately, some people's eagerness to make
A Statement far exceeds their willingess or ability to stay quiet,
pay attention, and learn from others, or even just to look up the
dictionary. I suspect that this tendency is the greatest obstacle
to language revival, rather than anything inherent in the task.

As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
"gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
and more. Alasdair Allan, who wrote a Ph.D thesis in Scots a few years ago,

invented the word "hyperlallanism" as a convenient derogatory term for
this tendency. Ian James Parsley might care to adopt it in the form
"hyperullanism".

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

A chairde,

Ian makes some astute observations about Irish which
are of great relevance to the situation of language
survival not just in a Celtic but also a Lowland
context. Further, we must bear in mind that the terms
of reference for most endangered or minority (insert
qualifying "negative" adjective as desired, a mindset
that all of us within our language communities have to
avoid) languages are the same, whether it be because
of a colonised/coloniser, suppressed/suppressor or
decimated/decimator relationship to the "killer"
language. Nonetheless I thank Ron for permitting the
digression into specifically Irish parameters.

I would like to know how far the dominant language in
a Lowland situation affects the languages we discuss
here: for example, has there ever been a specifically
Frisian colour spectrum that has now been imbalanced
toward Dutch? Or are the two languages too close
genetically to engender different colour schemes?

> In what I call 'Learners' Irish', i.e. that often
> taught at courses in Belfast, colours are assigned
> directly to their English equivalents.

This is only partly true, and implies a blanket
standard applied to Irish in the Six Counties. The
situation with regards to the Gaelic in Belfast is
complex, because of the Shaw's Road Gaeltacht (SRG;
i.e., an enclave of native Irish speakers in west
Belfast) who are a source of great local pride and who
exert some influence on how the language is taught in
the local vicinity.

Ian describes "Learner's Irish" and it seems to me he
is in fact describing the Irish of the SRG (a minority
variety of Irish of Belfast with a few hundred
speakers), which is massively contaminated by a heavy
English/Ulster-Scots substrate, to the point that the
syntax of the language is severely affected and
divergent from other varieties of Irish. Indeed, SRG
Irish speakers also freely mix English reflexives into
their speech ("T? s? ocras air, like, you know?") and
use "aye" ("An mbeidh cup?n tae agat?" "Aye, beidh m?,
go raibh maith agat"). This enrichment of the language
is a source of great pride to the SRG community and to
west Belfast.

However, the consequence has been an undeniable
"Germanicisation" of the more difficult sections of
Irish, at least to English-speaking ears. This is of
course the Anglicisation that Ian is referring to.
(Although I have to say it seems to me to be more of
an Ulster-Scotsisation given that the English of the
Six Counties tends to be heavily affected by Ulster
Scots.) Therefore the Gaelic colour spectrum has been
discarded in Shaw Road's Gaelic in favour of a
one-to-one with English but I'm unsure whether this
will last considering that most Irish speakers shun
the English spectrum. We may see the Irish of the SRG
become gradually regaelicised over time as the network
grows and evolves and is reintegrated into Donegal
Irish.

> These courses also have a tendency towards
> 'Anglicized simplification' [...] and pronunciation
> (the /r/ in words such as '?ire' and 'Doire' is very
> distinct from anything in English, but it is
> pronounced as in English even by teachers at some
> courses in Belfast).

This is entirely true and a good point well made. In
the Irish of the SRG, the entire system of
palatisation and velarisation has been severely
compromised, and indeed even aspiration and
nasalisation (i.e., mutation and eclipsis) is not
always present. Further, most plural pronouns have
been lost so that "agaibh" (at you, plural) is simply
replaced as per English with "agat" (at you,
singular). This is the hallmark of re-learned
languages, where the "old language" (in this case,
Belfast English), which itself involves a substrate
from the dormant language (i.e., Irish) has itself
become a substrate, with attendant interference.
As the Belfast English phonology is idiosyncratic when
compared to the rest of Ireland, we see that
"compromise-sounds" have come to the fore.

As the velarised /r/ of which Ian speaks is difficult
for English speakers to articulate, it is ignored, so
that "?ire" and "Doire" are pronounced amongst
learners as [e:ir@] and [do^r@]. From my own
experience I have noticed that the ghamma sound is
also becoming obsolete in relearnt Irish: it tends to
simply be pronounced as [g]. However there is a
tendency amongst Irish speakers who have spent
considerable time in the Gaeltacht to utilise this
sound, if unevenly. The consequence of using [g] for
ghamma is that it can confuse: /dh/ in Irish is also
the ghamma phoneme. This produces a situation whereby
the poet Nuala N? Dhomhnaill has her name variously
pronounced [ni: go:n at lj], [ni: jo:n at lj], [ni:
hjo:n at lj] and even [ni: ho:n at lj]. All of these are
correct insofar as the speakers know who they are
referring to. I would argue that an imperfect relearnt
phonology hardly discredits the fact that someone has
taken the effort to relearn their language.
Nonetheless the point stands that structural and
phonological interference in relearnt Irish is a major
"code-noise" slough, and occassionally difficult.

> However, not all courses do this. Some teach
> 'Donegal Irish' (occasionally played up as 'Ulster
> Gaelic'), and these, I would imagine, retain all the
> structures of the Donegal Gaeltacht...

This is a little inaccurate, again, and clarification
is needed. Donegal Irish enjoys high prestige amongst
learners in the nine counties of Ulster as the native
"Ulster" variant of Irish; consequently, the Gaeltacht
villages are flooded with learners from all over the
nine counties, so that they can learn "their" Gaelic
rather than "RT? Irish". Donegal Irish is extremely
idiosyncratic and serves as a transitional variant
between the Irish of Connacht and the Scots Gaelic of
the Inner Hebrides. It employs the heavy palatisation
characteristic of all speech in the nine counties
(i.e., the [j] after initial consonants which also
features in Ulster English and Ulster Scots) and a
distinctive syntax and grammar that appears quite odd
to speakers of other variants of Irish.

Donegal Irish is the prestige variant taught in all
Six County schoolrooms except where Shaw's Road Irish
is the immediate native form. Even in the SRG the
Irish community recognises that Donegal Irish is
relatively "uncontaminated" (I use the term
reservedly), unlike their own variety. (Nonetheless
SRG Irish-speakers are proud of their language's
vitality and idiosyncracies which they do not see, and
nor should they, as negative or "impure".)

I would argue that Donegal Irish is in fact the most
"Irish" in its syntax of all Gaelic variants. I learnt
Conmara Irish (i.e., the Irish of the extreme west of
Ireland, Connacht) and I am frequently baffled by my
friends who all use the Donegal Irish variant. Not
only is there much "code noise" from the phonology of
Donegal Irish but the actual grammar at times appears
to make no sense. An example of this is a simple
greeting we use (glossed as "How are you?" in
textbooks):

Donegal Irish: Cad ? mar at? t??
               lit. "What it like is you?"
Conmara Irish: Conas t? t??
               lit. "How are you?"

We see, then, that Donegal Irish's distinctive
features may be put down to retention of native forms,
or interference from Ulster Scots. To digress to
personal anecdote, I find Donegal Irish fairly
confusing; the words are there but the way they are
arranged is erratic and strikingly odd. This is no
barrier to communication, but I tend to find myself
speaking Irish more often and more easily to my
Munster Irish-speaking friend, avoiding undue mistake.

> Firstly, it shows that there would appear to be a
> divide in terms of purpose with Irish. Some people
> seem content to teach a 'watered down' version, and
> even to base the 'standard' on it, and I have been
> told even by Foras na Gaeilige Board members that
> this is deliberate to simplify the language and
> therefore entice more people to learn it.

This is indeed the case, although I'm not sure that
Foras na Gaeilge should be implicated fully in this.
These attempts to Anglicise (as that is what so-called
"simplification" of Irish really is in this context)
the Gaelic are ignored and derided as "RT? Irish" or
"Dublin 04 Irish" - RT? (Raidi? Teilif?os ?ireann)
being the Irish television network and Dublin 04 being
a bourgeois Britain-orientated postal district
renowned for its apathy toward Irish (indeed a
counter-Irish campaign has been waged from Dublin 04
since the 1960s under the title of "the Language
Rights Movement").

Consequences of subverting the language to the learner
are nothing short of catastrophe, I feel. One throws
away the vitality of the language to peg it to the
dominant language. When this occurs, the "minority"
tongue becomes something of an appendage, dependent
and colonial still, and this entirely defeats the
purpose of language survival. I love the Irish
language: I love its modes of expression, its
richness, its vibrancy, its sounds and its words, its
grammar and its vocabulary. I do not want to have a
"half-Irish" language that is in fact a hollowed out
slave to English. I would argue, in fact, that it is
better that a few people learn "factual Irish" in
continuity with the past (that is, native forms such
as Donegal Irish, Conmara Irish etc.) rather than
everyone learn "hypothetical Irish" based on
"simplicity" and "ease of acquisition".

This is precisely the dilemma facing Cornish today,
and seriously undermining its continued revival. Some
rather philanthropic faux-linguists have "recreated
historical Cornish" rather than simply picked up where
the last speakers left off, which would of course be
the most honest and true to the language approach.
Misfortunately, though, this "Unified Cornish" is a
mixture of reconstructed cognates from Welsh and
Breton, neologisms, and literary terms from plays of
c.1500. Even more lethally, a linguist named Ken
George gave himself the moral right to invent a whole
new "Cornic" (as Glanville Price scathingly rejected
it) that is in fact a Cornubisation of Breton and
distinctly Breton-looking. The only Cornish language
that has historical and factual legitimacy is
Curnoack, which, rather ironically, uses the
English-based orthography of the final speakers.
Nonetheless, it is the Cornish spoken in Cornish
mouths in the 18th and 19th Centuries. The
introduction of George's "Kernewek Kemmyn" caused a
schism in the small Cornish-speaking community which
reverberated through Cornish nationalism as a whole.
Thankfully, George's ridiculous "north Breton" is now
thoroughly discredited.

> Personally I would feel betrayed by
> such a version, and
> many others are determined not only that this
> particular lesser-used
> language should survive, but that it should survive
> 'properly'.

This is entirely the issue at stake. One has to be
true to the language, and not to one's ambitions -
languages are not static, but neither are they
infinitely malleable. Take for example the situation
of neologisms in Israeli Hebrew: Ben-Yehuda created a
whole slew of "suitable" terms, of which perhaps 60-70
percent were accepted. Elsewhere loans are simply
Hebraicised and used in everyday speech. Nonetheless
this is equally "proper Hebrew" because the native
speakers themselves have accepted the loans.

I am reminded of the state of Romanian in the 19th
Century, when the tongue was discovered to have
Romance affliation and a mass "Frenchification"
programme was put into practice, including the switch
from the Cyrillic alphabet, the purging of Slavic and
Magyar loans and their replacement with French, and so
on. I am left to wonder if modern Romanian is "proper
Romanian" given that it was tampered with and abused
by linguists with their own agendas.

Conclusively, then, we have learnt that it is one
thing to revive a language, but quite another to claim
historical legitimacy for our new tongue. And as the
politicos amongst us argue that historical legitimacy
is the sole arbiter of legitimacy in the present, it
seems to me that manufactured languages and variants
enjoy no more legitimacy and right than does Volapuk
or Esperanto.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Cr?ost?ir.

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

Ian wrote:

> I cannot describe a lot of the Scots you see even in
> official publications in Ireland as anything other than barbaric, with
> a complete disregard for the intricacies of grammar and idiom but far
> too much attention paid to 'maximally differentiating' from English,
> while failing to recognize that Scots words that look like English are
> as much a part of the Scots tongue as those that aren't. I personally
> have no time for this 'cheat version' (nor for the 'learners'
> standard' version of Irish) - I hold to the firm belief that if you
> are going to teach it, you teach it properly. But that's maybe because
> I'm not politically motivated?

There are no official publications in Zeeuws/Zeelandic and the language is
not teached at any level, but roughly the same discussion about 'purer' and

less 'purer' forms of the language as Ian describes can be found in Zeeland

as well.
In Noe-magazine, the only magazine in Zeeuws, you'll find articles, short
sories and poetry in Zeeuws. Some authors prefer to 'write as they speak'.
That is, using quite a few 'hollandisms' and thus more or less neglecting
the older, more typically Zeelandic forms. The same goes for expressions,
grammar, etc. Other writers use a more literary form of Zeeuws, using old
words that are still quite commonly known throughout Zeeland, but are only
seldomly heard in every day speech. A third approach is exaggerating things

in very much the same manner as Ian described for Scots and using the older

forms in ways they were never used before...
I find it very hard to 'label' these different approaches: they all have
there advantages and disadvantages and even the last approach sometimes has

its charms in terms of creativity and flexibility.

Within two years, there will be a teaching method for Zeeuws for adults
available. Ian mentions proper teaching of a language. But how do you
define
proper teaching if one can't even define proper use of the language. I
mean,
who determines what is proper Scots, Gaidhlig, Zeeuws, etc.? Is it the
language that is used in every day life in the early 21th century? Is it
the
language as it was used in rural areas before, say, World War II?

Saemenvattienge vo die a gin Iengels wille verstae: bin je noe goed bezig a

je je stuten in een stutemaele stekt of a je je botrammen in een bro?ddo?ze

stopt?

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E/S]

Marco,

You asked:

> Within two years, there will be a teaching method for Zeeuws for adults
> available. Ian mentions proper teaching of a language. But how do you
define
> proper teaching if one can't even define proper use of the language. I
mean,
> who determines what is proper Scots, Gaidhlig, Zeeuws, etc.? Is it the
> language that is used in every day life in the early 21th century? Is it
the
> language as it was used in rural areas before, say, World War II?

It is easier to begin by defining what it is *not*. To quote from
Purves' Scots Grammar (1997: 4-5):

'Against a background of continuing erosion of colloquial Scots, it is
arguable whether a substantial proportion of recent writing,
purporting to be in Scots, can properly be regarded as Scots at all.
Much contemporary material contains few of the features which
characterize the language, and appears to consist of attempts at back
translation from English into personal notions of what Scots is. What
can we make, for example, of such a sentence as "Ah wudnae of came if
Ah had of knew?" The acceptance of such a sentence as modern Scots
perpetuates the insulting notion that Scots is simply corrupt English.

Some of the so-called Scots currently written and published may be
syntactically and idiomatically English, and attempts to compensate
for its inauthenticity by spelling English words in an unusual way. It
is not possible to write well in Scots without experience of
colloquial speech or without a sound knowledge of Scots idiom and
syntax. In the absence of distinctive features of Scots grammar, as
exemplified in such sayings as "Auld men dees an bairns suin forgets",
the language loses its unique quality. Good Scots certainly cannot be
written by anybody who decides to invent his own orthography and
grammar off the cuff, because it is too much effort to discover the
standards inherent in speech and in the substantial corpus of
literature which already exists. A passage of English cannot be
transformed into Scots simply by substituting Scots words for English
words without reference to structure and idiom.'

With reference to Scots vis-a-vis English (but I'm sure the same
applies to Zeeuws, Low Saxon or whatever), it is undoubtedly difficult
even for the most proficient of speakers to write Scots well simply
because they are not used to doing so. However, some attempt must be
made. It is difficult to define some texts, but there is no dispute
that a large proportion of texts recently published, perhaps most
notably in Ulster, are actually English with strange spellings and odd
words (or common words used oddly) thrown in. You *can* define that.

So, for example, it is questionable whether the so-called 'verbal
concord rule' (illustrated above my 'auld men deeS' and 'bairns
forgetS') is actually necessary in Scots. Many Scots speakers adhere
to it, many (including most poets) don't. However, a phrase such as
'twa yeirS' or 'fowerty-echt mileS' is undoubtedly English to me
despite the Scots numbers - Scots speakers would always say 'twa yeir'
and 'fowerty-echt mile' (i.e. singular noun used after numerals where
relating to time, distance or length) - although I suspect even this
usage is dying under influence from modern English and general
analogical tendencies.

With regard to spelling, it is not good enough to invent a whole new
orthography, particularly one with no apparent system which is bound
to be full of inconsistiencies. What is required is general agreement
of traditional usage, and then general agreement on any moves towards
diverging from it. Few Scots writers would dispute such spellings as
'guid' and 'abuin' (which reflect a vowel pronounced quite differently
across dialect areas), but there remain other debates ('deid' vs.
'deed', 'sheuch' vs. 'sheugh', 'aw' vs. 'aa' etc). What *is* required
is consistency (if you use 'deid' use 'heid', if you use 'sheuch' use
'eneuch', if you use 'aw' use 'haw' and 'baw' etc).

So there may be no such thing, always, as 'correct Scots' (or Zeeuws
or whatever), but there is such a thing as clearly 'wrong Scots'. That
distinction can be built on.

Regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 00:18:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:18:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.FEB.2001.161806.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 18.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 17.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

> As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
> here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
> used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
> "gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
> and more. Alasdair Allan, who wrote a Ph.D thesis in Scots a few
> years ago, invented the word "hyperlallanism" as a convenient
> derogatory term for this tendency. Ian James Parsley might care to
> adopt it in the form "hyperullanism".

I haven't had anything to add to the "Language survival"
debate, since everything I might be able to say is already
being so well said.

However, to start a new thread on the above definition from
Colin, isn't "hyperlallanism" just a language-specific version
of "hypercorrection"? Admittedly the hypercorrection is going
in the opposite direction from usual (English to bad Scots
rather than Scots to bad English), but this should make no
difference if we can assume equal status for the languages.
I suppose the reason why Alisdair Allan puts forward a new
term is that we can't assume equal status - Scots in most
real-life or even literary situations doesn't have as high
a status as English, so it's difficult to equate overdone
Scots with an attempt at correction.

I once came across a very useful (and longstanding) definition
in a dictionary of literary terms. It was "inkhorn term",
meaning a word or phrase which could only have come from a
writer's inkhorn rather than anybody's mouth. I think this is
the perfect term for another common class of ill-advised
"Lallanisms" - words such as "mucklegate", "faurspaeker",
"atomstour" &c.

This would be distinguished from a "neologism" which is a word
which although it may be new, has a meaning so obvious and
natural that it could easily have arisen in conversation
between native speakers - the main point being that the writer
isn't attempting language architecture but just found a
temporary use for an unusual lexical construction which he
wouldn't expect to enter the language unless a lot of people
happen to find it memorable.

I would distinguish this again from a "coinage", which would
be a word which someone writing on a technical subject might
invent to make a necessary distinction in his own area of
expertise. Here there's no pretention of using "real words"
and the meaning intended is explained by the writer. It only
enters the language if enough people find it useful.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Cr?ost?ir wrote:

> I would like to know how far the dominant language in
> a Lowland situation affects the languages we discuss
> here: for example, has there ever been a specifically
> Frisian colour spectrum that has now been imbalanced
> toward Dutch? Or are the two languages too close
> genetically to engender different colour schemes?

I doubt there are many such perceptual differences where the dominant and
dominated languages belong to the same language subbranches and are
relatively closely related, which seems to be the majority in our Lowlandic
circle: English vs Scots, Dutch vs Frisian, Dutch vs Zeelandic (incl.
Western Flemish), Dutch vs Low Saxon, German vs Low Saxon (Low German),
German vs Frisian, English vs Afrikaans, American Standard English vs
Appalachian, Black English, Hawai'ian Creole, etc.  (Did I forget any?)
Things like color spectrum tend not to vary a great deal within the same
branch or subbranch, and what may have varied in the past has most probably
been unified long ago under continual cultural contacts, bilingualism and
dominant-language education.

This is not to say that pressures and influences from the dominant
languages are any weaker in these instances.  On the contrary, I assume
they are stronger on the whole, because the close genealogical
relationships tend to blur the dividing line between the dominant and
dominated languages in the mind of the average speaker.  The absence of
standards for the dominated language helps to blur the dividing line even
further.

In the case of Low Saxon/Low German in Northern Germany, there are massive
German influences that have accumulated over time and are increasing with
declining levels of language proficiency.  This has been the case
especially with lexicon and syntax.  For instance, most dialects now have
(German _Geist_ =) _Geist_ [gaIst] instead of native _Geest_ [gEIst]
'spirit', (German _Krieg_ =) _Krieg_ [kri:C] instead of native _Oorloog_
['?oU3loUx] 'war', (German _Jude_ =) _Juud_ [ju:.d] instead of native
_J??d'_ [j9.I(d)] 'Jew', (German _Zigeuner_ =) _Zigeuner_ [(t)si'go.In3]
instead of native _Tater_ ['tQ:t3] 'Gypsy', and (German _Kirsche_ =)
_Kirsch_ vs native _Kars(beer)_ ['k`a(:)s(be:3)] 'cherry'.  (This lexical
decline is particularly noticeable in the areas of the zoological and
botanical inventories.)  In some instances, a German cognate is assigned
semantic specialization; e.g., (German _fein_ >) _fein_ [fa.In] 'fine' =
'refined', 'nice', vs native _fien_ [fi:n] 'fine' = 'thin', 'delicate'.
Native words that have German cognates have stronger survival chances than
and will eventually replace native words that have no (apparent) German
cognates; e.g., (German _raten_ =) _raden_ ['rQ:d=n] vs _gissen_ ['gIs=n]
'to guess', and (German _Schote_ =) _Schoot_ [So:t] vs _Paal_ ~ _Pahl_
[p`Q:l] 'pod'.  Loaning from German is particularly strong in cases of
abstract nouns; e.g., many of those nouns that have the suffixes _-heit_ or
_-keit_ in German, e.g., (German _Krankheit_ =) _Krankheit_ ['kr?.nkhaIt]
vs native _S??k_ [zy:k] or _S??kdoom_ ['zy:kdo.Um] 'illness', 'disease',
and (German _Kleinigkeit_ =) _Klenigkeit_ ['klEInICkaIt] vs _Kleikraam_
['kla.IkrQ:m] ~ _Klacks_ [klaks] ~ _Pittjepattje_ ['p`Itje,patje] ~
_Spier(ken)_ [spi:3(k=N)] ~ _Scheet_ [Se:t] 'trifle'.  Many, if not most,
German loans are disguised in that they are "calques," i.e., translated
loanwords.  Naturally, this is particularly noticeable in the naming of
more recent innovations and German institutions; e.g., (German
_Wartezimmer_ =) _T??fruum_ ['t`9Ifru:m] 'waiting room', (German _Kaufhaus_
=) _Koophuus_ ['k`oUphu:s] 'department store', or as semi-calques; e.g.,
(German _Genossenschaft_ =) _Genossenschupp_ [ge'nOs=nSUp] '(socialist)
cooperative' vs native-based _Maatschupp(ie)_ ['mQ:tSUp] (~ [mQ:tSu'pi:]) ~
_Maatschapp(ie)_ ['mQ:tSap] (~ [mQ:tSa'pi:]) '(capitalist) cooperative'
(cf. Dutch _maatschappij_).

Those of us who have been around for a few decades also notice rapidly
increasing German phonological influences, typically uvular [R] instead of
native apical [r] for /r/; [St...], [Sp...], [Sm...] and [Sn...] in
dialects in which native pronunciation is [st...], [sp...], [sm...] and
[sn...] respectively; monophthongization of diphthongs (no doubt enhanced
by unsuitable German-based orthographic devices), lack of _Schleifton_
("dragging tone," i.e., vocalic superlength and non-application of final
devoicing), e.g., _m??d(')_ [m?:t] instead of native [m9.I(d)] 'sleepy',
'tired'; and denasalization and shortening of vowels before nasals (e.g.,
[mOIn] < [m?.I~n] _Moin!_ 'Hi!', [?an=n StRant fUn=n 'blaNkhans] < [??.n:
str?.nt fU~.n: 'bl?.Nkh?.ns] _an'n Strand vun'n Blankhans_ 'at the North
Sea beach/shore' ("at the beach of the White John").

Colin wrote:

> As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
> here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
> used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
> "gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
> and more.

I do not necessarily condone such artificial lexical separatism, but I
wonder if it is not to be expected, especially where the dominant and the
dominated languages are so closely related and planners and writers
therefore have the need (consciously or subconsciously) for making the
dominated language different, at least to choose a less similar lexical
item where there is a choice.  I see the same happening in Low Saxon (Low
German) of Germany, especially in non-traditional literature, predominantly
in modern poetry.  Some writers, including myself, occasionally mix
dialects by choosing now rare words or expressions from other dialects
because they sound better in some contexts.  In other words, there are such
lexical choices as artistic devices, but some measure of "activism"
(separatism and purism) may play a role at least subconsciously.  For
instance, I usually say _Krieg_ for 'war', but in one piece I used the word
_oorloogsm??d'_ instead of _kriegsm??d'_ for 'war-weary', simply because I
like the sound of the former better in that instance.  Similarly, Waltrud
Bruhn from Schleswig-Holstein, probably the champion of modern Low Saxon
poetry in Germany, freely alternates between equivalent words from
different dialects.  She, too, usually uses the word _Krieg_ for 'war', but
then she uses only _Oorloog_ in an entire poem ("Vun'n Oorloog" (About
War), which is specifically about war), and I think this, too, is for
predominantly artistic style.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 18:53:56 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:53:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.105356.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 19.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 =======================================================================
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]

Criostoir asked:

> I would like to know how far the dominant language in
> a Lowland situation affects the languages we discuss
> here: for example, has there ever been a specifically
> Frisian colour spectrum that has now been imbalanced
> toward Dutch? Or are the two languages too close
> genetically to engender different colour schemes?

As Ron already mentioned, just like for the other Lowland languages, the
Zeelandic colour spectrum is basically the same as the Standard
Dutch/German/English one. They way colours of cattle and horses are
described, are very different though. This might be a relic of an older
colour scheme which was used more generally than just for cattle/horses
once.

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Ron,

You wrote:

> I do not necessarily condone such artificial lexical
> separatism, but I wonder if it is not to be
> expected, especially where the dominant and the
> dominated languages are so closely related and
> planners and writers therefore have the need
> (consciously or subconsciously) for making the
> dominated language different, at least to choose a
> less similar lexical item where there is a choice.
> I see the same happening in Low Saxon (Low German)
> of Germany, especially in non-traditional
> literature, predominantly in modern poetry.  Some
> writers, including myself, occasionally mix dialects
> by choosing now rare words or expressions from other

> dialects because they sound better in some
> contexts.  In other words, there are
> such lexical choices as artistic devices, but some
> measure of "activism" (separatism and purism) may
> play a role at least subconsciously.

Well, I think again this depends. There is undoubtedly
the tendency, probably even a conscious one, to want
to make the 'dominated language' *seem* different from
the dominant one. However, you are doing so as a
linguist, fully aware of what you are doing, what you
are trying to achieve, and how you can best achieve
it. Ultimately I am sure you will agree that the aim
of the game is *communication* in the lesser-used
language, and 'maximally differentiating' from the
dominant tongue comes secondary to that.

It really depends on the individual case. My point is
(as McClure inter alia points out) that words that
appear English are as much a part of Scots as those
that aren't. On average you would expect over 90% of
words in a Scots text to have an immediately
recognizable English cognate - if that is *not* the
case, then the chances are the text isn't genuine
Scots. 'Gar' has an utterly different meaning from
'make' (as in 'machen')

Colin gives some very useful examples. 'Norie', for
example, simply doesn't mean 'idea' - it means more
'whim', which is a different thing. There is a
difference between 'speir' and 'ask' in Scots, and
between 'write' and 'screive/scrieve' - to ignore that
difference is to assign to 'screive' a direct English
equivalent ('write'), and this goes back to what I was
saying earlier, where you actually lose the essence of
the language. 'Gar' has an utterly different meaning
from 'make' (as in 'create' or 'do'), and some people
use 'rax' to mean 'reach' as in 'reach a place' -
which is worrying because Scots already has a
perfectly good alternative (along the lines of 'win
tae'), and would be lost if the previous false usage
is maintained.

Of course, some of these new meanings do become
generally accepted, probably most notably 'leet'. That
doesn't make it right necessarily, but languages do
develop (I mean, what idiot inserted the <b> in 'debt'
or assigned the meaning of 'not pay attention to' to
'ignore'?!!)

In Ireland the case is far more serious still. Texts
produced not only contain inaccuracies, but are often
utterly incomprehensible (remember: 'language is about
communication'). There are often blatantly wrong
translations - 'Ministrie' (Ministry) for
'Department', 'fowkgates' (customs) for 'culture',
worst of all perhaps 'Ulster' (Ulster; i.e. the
province based on the ancient kingdom) for 'Northern
Ireland'. These are compounded by a pile of made-up
words, as opposed to actual proper neologisms (or
attempts at them). In this regard I am very grateful
to Sandy for explaining the clear-cut distinction. The
result in Ulster has been the alienation of native
speakers, who simply do not recognize their own speech
in texts which are supposed to represent it!

Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

I generally agree with you.

However, I would like to add that I feel that people ought not be chided
for using what they feel is the native choice wherever there is a choice,
as long as they are still understood, and as long as we do not speak about
outright, organized engineering attempts.  This applies particularly to
relatively older speakers -- and they need not be linguists, need only have
conscious -- who have witnessed a clear proficiency decline within their
own lifetimes.  For instance, this would apply in the case of the Celtic
color spectrum.  Why should someone who grew up with the original spectrum
adopt the English based spectrum if he/she knows "better" and considers the
new spectrum a symptom of declining proficiency?  Another example is names
of certain ethnicities and countries in Low Saxon (Low German) of Germany.
The fact that many speakers use the German names is due to proficiency
decline combined with seeing the outside world through national German
eyes, yet the original names tend to be understood if heard/read, and they
are preserved in some dialects.  I had already given _J??d'_ > _Juud_ 'Jew'
and _Tater_ > _Zigeuner_ 'Rom', 'Gypsy'.  I might add _Greek_ [gre:k] >
_Griech(e)_ ['gri:C(e)] 'Greek (person)', _Grekenland_ ['gre:k=Nla.nt] >
_Griechenland_ ['gri:C=nla.nt] 'Greece', _T?rk_ [t`9.3k] > _T?rk(e)_
[tY3k(e)] 'Turk', _T?rkie_ ['t`9.3'ki:] > _T?rkei_ [t`9.3'ka.I] 'Turkey'.

We are talking about choices, most of them acceptable and understandable to
most speakers.  While I do not agree with concerted efforts to engineer a
standard language without a predominance of genuine speakers' input, I also
do not agree with condemning people's choices, especially where they
themselves perceive alternative choices as being incorrect, foreign and a
sign of insufficient proficiency.  The "truth" must lie somewhere in
between.  Why should I say _T?rk(e)_ when _T?rk_ feels right and original
to me?  Just because more and more people say _T?rk(e)_?  People usually
use German words because they do not know the Low Saxon equivalents.  They
would probably use the native words if they knew them.  They look to
proficient speakers and writers for the education schools are not offering
them.  So should these "models" use the native words, or should they bow to
declining proficiency in others and use the German equivalents?  Would the
latter choice not amount to speeding up language proficiency decline and
language death?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 18:59:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:59:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.105954.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 19.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: Multi-linguistic environments

For the moment I'm supervising (subcontracted from one of the major 5
auditing offices) an ERP (logistics software) implementation at an
important federal governmental institution downtown Brussels. Never ask
me wether I discussed in French or in Dutch with person ABC: In most
case I absolutely do not remember. We occasionally are switching
language during discussions, without one is aware of the switch.

Semantics is a major issue though: in this kingdom.
Multi-cultural/multi-regional agreements are balanced on thin ropes
above large falls. An issue of today was how to formulate delivery terms
or payment credits of two weeks in screens where people have to enter a
number of days in a text box:
- French speaking people say "dans quinze" jours and enter 15 in the
"d/j" text box.
- Dutch speaking people say "binnen veertien dagen" and enter 14 in the
"d/j" text box.

Issues like this are of an extreme sensitivity, and I unfortunately
cannot give more details of the whereabouts. Somebody may blow it up to
an issue, as: "Walloon suppliers get one more day on payment terms as
Flemish suppliers" and one or another polical fellow certainly will use
it at the proper time for breaking the career of his fellow-friend.

Regards,
Roger
www.euro-support.be

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 22:42:27 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:42:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.144227.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Multi-linguistic environments

Roger Thijs heeft geschreven:

> An issue of today was how to formulate delivery terms
> or payment credits of two weeks in screens where people have
> to enter a number of days in a text box:
> - French speaking people say "dans quinze" jours and enter 15
> in the "d/j" text box.
> - Dutch speaking people say "binnen veertien dagen" and enter
> 14 in the "d/j" text box.

One convenient way around an impasse like that would be to have
people write the actual date 14 days or 10 business days etc.
from the current one.

If the form is electronic, the computer could add a uniform
number of days, regardless of language (or user's poor math);
that would also confirm the precise date for the user, e.g. <15.
april>.  Someone would still have to decide definitively how to
define "two weeks", but there would then be one standard at
least.

Stefan

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 23:37:15 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:37:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.FEB.2001.153715.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]

At 13:32 18/02/01 -0800, Criostoir O Ciardha wrote:

>Ian describes "Learner's Irish" and it seems to me he
>is in fact describing the Irish of the SRG (a minority
>variety of Irish of Belfast with a few hundred
>speakers), which is massively contaminated by a heavy
>English/Ulster-Scots substrate, to the point that the
>syntax of the language is severely affected and
>divergent from other varieties of Irish.

Would it perhaps be more accurate to classify this language
as an Irish-based creole, rather than as a variety of Irish?

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

At 16:18 18/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:
>However, to start a new thread on the above definition from
>Colin, isn't "hyperlallanism" just a language-specific version
>of "hypercorrection"? Admittedly the hypercorrection is going
>in the opposite direction from usual (English to bad Scots
>rather than Scots to bad English), but this should make no
>difference if we can assume equal status for the languages.
>I suppose the reason why Alisdair Allan puts forward a new
>term is that we can't assume equal status - Scots in most
>real-life or even literary situations doesn't have as high
>a status as English, so it's difficult to equate overdone
>Scots with an attempt at correction.

I think the reason is more likely to be for the sake of greater
precision. "Hypercorrection" could mean many things, but
"hyperlallanism" means something very specific.

>I once came across a very useful (and longstanding) definition
>in a dictionary of literary terms. It was "inkhorn term",
>meaning a word or phrase which could only have come from a
>writer's inkhorn rather than anybody's mouth. I think this is
>the perfect term for another common class of ill-advised
>"Lallanisms" - words such as "mucklegate", "faurspaeker",
>"atomstour" &c.

I don't necessarily agree that these terms are ill-advised, but
I do believe (now) that the decision as to whether this is the
right way for Scots to develop, is one that can only be taken by
the Scots-speaking community at large rather than by a
relatively small number of activists. In my view, the main aim for
activists at present ought to be to promote the status of Scots at
its current stage of development.

R.F. Hahn wrote:
>I do not necessarily condone such artificial lexical separatism, but I
>wonder if it is not to be expected, especially where the dominant and the
>dominated languages are so closely related and planners and writers
>therefore have the need (consciously or subconsciously) for making the
>dominated language different, at least to choose a less similar lexical
>item where there is a choice.

I have no objection to this either, but with Scots there is a tendency
on the part of some to use a less similar lexical item even when there
isn't a real choice, because the less similar item is actually wrong.
For example "norie", which people use to mean "idea", actually means
a false or fanciful idea, and anyone who cares to look at the dictionary
can check this. "Screive", which people use to mean "write", actually
means (more or less) "scribble". I could give a good number of others.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E]

Ron wrote:

<snip>
> I hope this will help shed some more light on the possibility of language

> revival.

The case with Hebrew, I assume, is perhaps sigular by its nature.
There must have been /is a great desire in the population to do this. I A'm

surprised that is has been so successful. I assume there are social
networks
of the various immigrant groups where the use of Hebrew could easily be
avoided for everyday purposes, much as it is in some ethnic communities in
the UK.

Does any one know about the situation it Catalonie vis a vis the revival of

Catalonian. I have often seen this used an an example of what could be
possible in Scotland in view of Scots. How similar/disimilar are Castillian

and Catalans?

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Sandy Fleming wrote:
> Subject: "Language survival"

> However, to start a new thread on the above definition from
> Colin, isn't "hyperlallanism" just a language-specific version
> of "hypercorrection"? Admittedly the hypercorrection is going
> in the opposite direction from usual (English to bad Scots
> rather than Scots to bad English), but this should make no
> difference if we can assume equal status for the languages.
> I suppose the reason why Alisdair Allan puts forward a new
> term is that we can't assume equal status - Scots in most
> real-life or even literary situations doesn't have as high
> a status as English, so it's difficult to equate overdone
> Scots with an attempt at correction.

Is 'hyperlallanism' hypercorrection or a deliberate attemp to artificially
try and increase the diference between Scots and English? I make a
difference here between 'creative writing' an what are supposed to be
'official' publications.
Creative writers can do what they want. That is their prerogative. I would
assume the intention of 'official publications' is to inform the public. If

the public these writings are aimed at can't understand what's written then

they must be considered dismal failures. Wether this is a result of an
idiosyncratic orthography or a preponderance of indeciperable neologisms.

The only Scots neologisms I use regularly are to do with the medium we are
using now. wabsteid (website), wittinscurn (newsgroup), straivaig (surf)
airtin or cleik (link) and sneck (click) most of these should be
recognisable in a web context. Any thoughts?

Ron wrote:


> This is not to say that pressures and influences from the dominant
> languages are any weaker in these instances.  On the contrary, I assume
> they are stronger on the whole, because the close genealogical
> relationships tend to blur the dividing line between the dominant and
> dominated languages in the mind of the average speaker.  The absence of
> standards for the dominated language helps to blur the dividing line even

> further.

It's not neccessarily the absence of 'a' standard but lack of knowledge of
which linguistic features are those of the dominant and dominated language.

My experiance at school was, when I used Scots grammar forms I was simply
told it was wrong. No explanation of 'interference'. The implication being
my family/community were also wrong etc. etc.

> In the case of Low Saxon/Low German in Northern Germany, there are
massive
> German influences that have accumulated over time and are increasing with

> declining levels of language proficiency.  This has been the case
> especially with lexicon and syntax.  .... (This lexical
> decline is particularly noticeable in the areas of the zoological and
> botanical inventories.)

The same in Scots. The assumption being for many is that these terms are
not
encountered everyday any anybody needing to learn such terminology resorts
to books in the dominant langage (for want of any in the dominated
language)

> Those of us who have been around for a few decades also notice rapidly
> increasing German phonological influences

Equally true in Scotland.(English of course)

> Colin wrote:
>
> > As far as Scots in Scotland is concerned, we see the same tendency
> > here as in Ireland: "screive" used as if it meant "write", "leet"
> > used as if it meant "list", "norie" used as if it meant "idea",
> > "gar" used as if it meant "make", "rax" used as if it meant "reach",
> > and more.
>
Some writers, including myself, occasionally mix
> dialects by choosing now rare words or expressions from other dialects
> because they sound better in some contexts.  In other words, there are
such
> lexical choices as artistic devices, but some measure of "activism"
> (separatism and purism) may play a role at least subconsciously.

In creative writing that's OK. But would it work well in 'official'
publication aimed at encouraging use of a dominated language?

To me what makes something Scots is the Scots grammar features and certain
vocabulary. Not a slavish one to one translation, often full of words out
of
context or alien looking neologisms. I 've read stuff more or less written
with a standard English orthography but it was blatantly obvious it was
Scots and not bad English.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Language survival
>
> circle: English vs Scots, Dutch vs Frisian, Dutch vs Zeelandic (incl.
> Western Flemish), Dutch vs Low Saxon, German vs Low Saxon (Low German),
> German vs Frisian, English vs Afrikaans, American Standard English vs
> Appalachian, Black English, Hawai'ian Creole, etc.  (Did I forget any?)
> Things like color spectrum tend not to vary a great deal within the same
> branch or subbranch, and what may have varied in the past has
> most probably
> been unified long ago under continual cultural contacts, bilingualism and

> dominant-language education.

There are a few colour-spectrum differences between Scots
and English. A perfect example of how the scheme of the
dominant language can be imposed on the minority language
can be seen in the Scots "blae". To me, this is a dull
greyish-blue, as in the colour of bilberries (Scots
"blaeberries", of course) or bruises and suchlike. Many
modern Scots speakers simply don't use the word, whereas
many Scots or "Scots" writers use it for "blue". Either
way the spectrum ends up matching that of English and the
problem is that, as Ian says, the expression of the
language is lost.

Another colour-word distinction made in Scots, though not
related to the actual colour spectrum, is that between
"black" and "bleck". My interpretation of this is that
"black" is the adjectival form, "bleck" is used in other
cases. For example, "bleck" will be used as a verb, as in
"bleckenin" (blackening for shoes &c) from the verb form
"tae bleck" meaning "to blacken". "Bleck" is also
invariably used in Scots to mean a black person. These
distinctions are still so firmly entrenched in
contemporary Scots that I'd be surprised to find anybody
confusing them.

There are also some figurative uses of colour in Scots
that don't occur in English as far as I know (idiomatic
rather than semantic):

Scots             English

black             extreme
grey              sombre, sad
blae              dark

eg:

Scots "black affrontit", English "extremely embarrassed".

Scots "blae glower", English "black looks"

Scots, from "Wee Willie Winkie": "The cat's singin grey thrums tae the
sleepin hen".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Colin wrote:

> I have no objection to this either, but with Scots there is a tendency
> on the part of some to use a less similar lexical item even when there
> isn't a real choice, because the less similar item is actually wrong.
> For example "norie", which people use to mean "idea", actually means
> a false or fanciful idea, and anyone who cares to look at the dictionary
> can check this. "Screive", which people use to mean "write", actually
> means (more or less) "scribble". I could give a good number of others.

I occasionally encounter this sort of thing in Low Saxon (Low German) of
Germany also.  One example is the expression of the idea 'opinion'.  Most
people say _Menen_ [mEIn:] in every context, which I suspect to have been
reinforced by German _Meinung_.  I have come across a couple of writers who
say _Verscheel_ [f3'Se:l] in every context, a word that does not seem to
have a German cognate (at least not a generally apparent one).  I consider
either case to be symptomatic of a proficiency decline: a tendency toward
translating German and having only one choice like in German, in the second
case choosing a less similar word.  _Verscheel_ originally had (and
hopefully still has in most inventories) the specific meaning
'contrary/diverging opinion', whereas _Menen_ is more general and neutral.
Thus, if someone expresses their opinion and you concur it seems wrong to
say something like _Dat is ook mien Verscheel_ 'That's my opinion too',
unless you want to stress that you, like the other person, has an opinion
that differs from the generally held opinion.  It seems to me that knowing
when to say _Menen_ and when to use _Verscheel_ distinguishes speakers that
can use the language without a side glance at German.

Andy wrote:

> The case with Hebrew, I assume, is perhaps sigular by its nature.
> There must have been /is a great desire in the population to do this. I
A'm
> surprised that is has been so successful.

You are not alone there.  I have a feeling that its success lies in great
part in a strong nationalistic (Zionist) base.

> I assume there are social networks
> of the various immigrant groups where the use of Hebrew could easily be
> avoided for everyday purposes, much as it is in some ethnic communities
in
> the UK.

Of course.  You will find numerous immigrant language communities and
networks, and there are printed and electronic media in the main immigrant
languages (Yiddish, Polish, Russian, German, French, English, Spanish,
etc.).  However, with few exceptions (e.g., the closed, ultra-orthodox
Naturei Charta community that clings to Yiddish only, and some
language-specific kibbutzim) people cannot avoid rubbing shoulders with
people of different linguistic backgrounds in everyday life, and in most
instances Hebrew is the lingua franca; thus, there is an absolute
requirement to have at least some Hebrew proficiency.  The three official
languages of Israel are Hebrew, English and Arabic, but Hebrew
predominates.  Pressure from Hebrew is great, and some endangered languages
that initially found a refuge in Israel (e.g., Judeo-Aramaic [Semitic],
Judeo-Bukharan [Iranic], and Karaim [Turkic]) are therefore doomed.  The
success story of  Hebrew from a book language to a power language is indeed
remarkable and may even surpass the expectations of Theodor Herzl.
Whatever the key to its success may be, this case does show that a language
*can* be revived.

Sandy wrote:

> Another colour-word distinction made in Scots, though not
> related to the actual colour spectrum, is that between
> "black" and "bleck".

Some of you may be interested to know that in many Low Saxon dialects
_Black_ means 'ink'.  (Old High German had _blah_.  I can't think of a
Modern German descendant other than the adjective _blakig_ 'sooty'.)  A Low
Saxon alternative for 'ink' is _Dint_ (cf., German _Tinte_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 16:12:45 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:12:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
 20.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.081245.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Sandy Fleming wrote:

> "blae": To me, this is a dull
> greyish-blue, as in the colour of bilberries (Scots
> "blaeberries", of course) or bruises and suchlike.

In Zeeuws, we have 'blaeuw' for any colour stretching from blue to grey.
It's used less and less in every day speech and replaced bij Dutch 'blauw'
and 'grijs', except when describing the colour of a grey horse. In Dutch
such a horse is called 'schimmel' and the colour is referred to as 'grijs'.
In Zeeuws, we call this kind of horse a 'blaeuwen'.
As opposed to the 'vivid' grey described as 'blaeuw', all dull, darkish,
less explicit colours (greyish, brownish...) are described as 'graeuw'. In
Dutch 'grauw' isn't used as a name for a colour, it's strictly used as an
adjective, dull, grey, plain.

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Color terms

Dear Lowlanders,

Marco wrote:

> In Dutch
> such a horse is called 'schimmel' and the colour is referred to as > 'grijs'.

Same thing in Low Saxon.

Here are some of the main colors in the North Saxon dialects of Low Saxon (Low
German) of Germany:

witt [vIt]: white (> pale, clean)

blau [bla.U], blaag ~ blaach [blQ:x]: blue (> drunk)

violett [fio'lEt], vigelett [fige'lEt], violenblau [fi'o:ln,bla.U]:
     violet, bluish purple (Eastern Friesland _zangen_ ['tsa.N:])

rood, root [ro:t] ~ [roUt]: red (> blushed)

purpur(rood) ['p`u3pu3(ro:t)]: (reddish) purple

geel [ge:l]: yellow (> blond, golden, ugly, false; _geel snacken_ 'to
     speak Germanized Low Saxon', 'to speak German', 'to talk in an
     uppety/affected way')

gr??n [gr9.In], greun [grO.In]: green (> unripe, inexperienced,
     immature, unprocessed; e.g. _Aal gr??n_ 'fresh (vs smoked)
     eel', _gr?nen Heern_ 'fresh (vs smoked or pickled) herring')

gries [gri:s], grau [gra.U], graag [grQ:x]: gray (> pale, pallid,
     ashen, clever, cunning; e.g., _He is 'n Griesen_ 'He's a
     devious one')

swart [sva:t], swatt [swat]: black (> dark)

Let's take the color term discussion out of "Language survival" and give it
its own subject thread.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 15:32:38 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:32:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.073238.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Teterevenkow Andrej [teterev at ssu.samara.ru]
Subject:

Dear Lowlanders,

Ron Hahn wrote:

>Note that Russian has
>_pavlin_ rather than just *_pav_. Something strange and interesting is
>going on here. Can any of you help?

Stefan Israel wrote:

>Could the -uun/luun (and maybe the Russian -lin) be a
>pseudofrench ending, tacked on to make a foreign word look
>"properly foreign"? I had that gut reaction, but I haven't
>thought of any good basis to pin that on.

"The Historico-etymological Dictionary of Modern Russian" by P.Ya. Tchernykch
1999 gives the following explanation of Russian 'pavlin' (first mentioned in
Russian dictionaries 1704):

It is unlikely to have any relation to French 'pavillon' (contrary to the
opinion of Russisches Etymologisches Woerterbuch von Max Vasmer). It has
rather been derived from Latin ''pavoninus' - "many colored; of the peacock"
(showing a dissimilation of n:n>l:n). (1 part, p.615)

The female form 'pava' which seems to have been the originally common form for
both male and female species is supposed to be a common Slavic loan from
Latin.

S privetom,

Andrei Teterevenkov

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the explanation above, Andrei.  It was a pleasure to hear from one
of our Russian subscribers.

For the benefit of more recent subscribers, let me explain that Andrei
responded to my question why the Low Saxon (Low German) word for 'peacock' was
_Pageluun_ [p`Qge'lu:n], specifically what the origin of the _...luun_ part
may be, and if there was any connection with Russian _pavl?n_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 16:14:38 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:14:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.081438.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Folk,

A always find these discussions, where they link a
variety of languages, extremely useful.

Andy asks how similar Catalan is to Castilian, with
reference to possible parallels with Lowlands minority
languages. Of course, that depends on how you measure
it and on what variety of Catalan (and, for that
matter, Castilian) you adopt.

Not unlike Scots, Catalan has a long and distinguished
literary tradition and use as the formal language of a
state. However, the modern standard derives from the
work of a chemical engineer and linguist called Fabra
at the beginning of the 20th century. He adopted the
Barcelona dialect as the one to base the standard
grammar and vocabulary on, but ensured that all
spellings were truly reflective of all dialects. He
deliberately adopted words and terms that were
different from Castilian where they were still in use
in some dialects (even if not in Barcelona), or even
where they had a common literary use. However, he
ensured that whatever was written remained within the
bounds of understanding by your average modern
speaker, thus the widespread adoption of his system.
In the 1910s there was a grammar published, but
language planners should note well that a generally
agreed dictionary did not follow until 1932. There
remains some debate over modern technological terms
(and even, I daresay, over whether they are required
at all). Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
language activists - they assure me that Scots is
highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
standardize it!!!

It is *not* true to say that other Spaniards regard or
regarded Catalan as a dialect of 'Spanish' (I have
seen that written by people who really should know
better!). It was in fact *banned* under Franco (and
its use positively discouraged in previous eras after
the unification of Castile and Aragon), which is a
quite different thing - it would be pretty difficult
to *ban* a dialect of your own language! In fact,
contemporary right-wing Spaniards (i.e. those not
living in Catalonia) often refer to Catalan as
'Polaco' (Polish), on the basis that it is no more
comprehensible that an East European language. This is
slightly unfortunate, because the underlying and
genuinely misguided belief is that Catalans speak
Catalan 'just to be different', whereas in fact they
are merely speaking their native tongue! The result,
however, not dissimilarly to Scots and other
languages, was that Catalan became banished to the
countryside (where prohibitive laws were harder to
enforce), and the urban middle-class adopted the
'dominant language' (Castilian).

Certainly as one with adequate Spanish and (probably
quite importantly in this case) reasonable French, I
have no great difficulty understanding the jist of a
Catalan conversation. It is much more reduced than
Spanish (e.g. the past participle of 'estar' is
'estat' rather than 'estado'; final consonant-s
combinations are allowed as in 'amics catalans' vs.
'amigos catalanes'), but less so than French. Arabic
lexical influence is there, but not nearly so marked
as with Castilian.

I think the parallels are there with Lowlands
languages, and I think the key lesson is that we need
to operate on a united front where possible. In 1998
Catalan was afforded 'main language' status within the
education system in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands
(with some exceptions), but *not* in Valencia. This
was because 'Valencian' (which is almost indisputably
actually a southern dialect of Catalan) was considered
separate from 'Catalan', even by many 'Valencian'
activists. The parallels with Lowlands languages
spoken across national, regional or other geographic
boundaries are obvious (although it is true that the
political situation in Valencia is rather different
from in Catalonia).

However, it is extremely difficult to think of an
example among Lowlands tongues with such political
support (Catalans have no difficulty distinguishing
between 'political' and 'cultural' nationalism, so
although the present exceptionally high status of the
language in the education system in Catalonia and the
Balearics is very much the result of moves made by
Jordi Pujol's Catalan nationalists, the two movements
are clearly distinct and people understand this).
Furthermore, as a comparatively wealthy region of
Iberia, Catalonia has received a huge number of
immigrants from the rest of Spain (most notably
Andalusia and Extremadura) with the result that use of
Castilian is constantly being reinforced by the
arrival of native speakers rather than specific
government policy.

Hope that helps
Regards,
------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 19:13:08 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:13:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

I get a lot of questions about sources for learning (about) Old and Middle
English.  I always refer people to our specific English resource page
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/english_offline.htm).  If
you know of any other good books, please let me know, and I will add them.

I know that quite a few Lowlanders are interested and versed in Old and Middle
English.  If any of you (singly or in teams) feel inclined and confident,
there is nothing to stop you from translating our welcoming page into these
language varieties.  I know, I know ... Some will find it silly (and it would
require making up a few words), but it might be a "fun" thing for many
readers.

Our web site has been experiencing a bit of a visitation boom lately, and I am
happy to welcome a number of new subscribers.  This is another opportune
moment for posting the pules for posting.  This is mandatory reading for all
but the most experienced contributors.

I encourage lurkers to come forward and contribute.  You need not feel
self-conscious or intimidated as long as you stick to the basic guidelines.

PLEASE DO READ THESE GUIDELINES:

(1) KEEP DISCUSSIONS RELEVANT.  Please remember that we deal with the
"Lowlands" area.  This is not synonymous with "Germanic" but excludes German,
Luxemburgish and the North Germanic languages (Scandinavian, Icelandic and
Faroese).  It is perfectly fine to mention these related languages, and any
other languages and their cultures for that matter, especially wherever there
are parallels or connections that are useful in understanding topics that are
within our main subject area.  However, the focus must remain on the Lowlands
languages and cultures.  It is all right to sidestep within a discussion, as
long as the discussion returns to the original focus.  However, this should
not be seen as an excuse to start a new, extraneous subject line.

(2) KEEP SUBJECTS SEPARATE.  Do not submit a single posting in which more than
one topic is discussed.  ("Topic" equals "subject line".)  This also applies
when you respond to other people's postings.

(3) STICK TO THE SUBJECT TITLE.  If you start an entirely new discussion, you
are welcome to create your own subject title.  I may or may not adopt that
title.  (The more general the title is the better is the chance that I'll
adopt it; otherwise I'll generalize it.)  If you respond or add to previous
postings in an already existing subject line, please use the already existing
title of that discussion threat as your subject heading. For instance, if the
current title is "Language varieties" and you respond to what someone wrote
about vowels in Flemish dialects, don't choose something like "Long o and u in
the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of young Belgians" as your
subject heading; stick to "Language varieties," if you like it or not. This
facilitates sorting submissions at my end.  If I feel that the discussion has
changed or a new discussion has branched off an existing one, it is *my* job
to give it a new title.

(4) EDIT QUOTES.  When you reply to what someone else has written, don't just
hit the reply button and write your reply before or after the quoted text.
EDIT OUT WHATEVER IS NOT ESSENTIAL, most definitely the LL-L masthead and
footer.  (They are going to stay, for good reasons.)  Also, don't do what some
do: they follow this rule nicely until they run out of things to say, and then
they let the rest of the quoted text dangle behind their "signature."

(5) GIVE CREDIT.  Don't forget to say who the writer of the text is to which
you are responding.  (When you hit the reply button your system most likely
credits me or "Lowlands-L," the sender, even if I did not write it.)

(6) IDENTIFY YOURSELF.  Anonymous postings are not permitted and will be
ignored.  Readers must be able to see who wrote a posting.  Many people have
automatic "signatures;" they are great, as long as they are not attached. (No
attachments allowed!)  Otherwise, your name must appear either with your email
address or at the end of your contribution.  It is all right to have your
surname appear in one place and your given name in another place within the
same posting.

(7) DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS.  Attachments (i.e., attached documents or
pictures), including signature attachments, are unacceptable.  The list server
strips most attachments off submissions and would probably remove the rest
during final distribution if I did not remove them already.  Anyway, sending
attachments without prior approval from recipients is a big no-no in
"netiquette."  So, please put everything you wish to convey inside your email
submissions.

By all means, please feel free to submit postings to LL-L, even if you have
never done so before.  If you make a gross mistake, I'll tell you so privately
and will have you resubmit it correctly before anyone else sees it -- which
isn't the end of the world. If the mistake is not so bad, I'll correct it once
or twice in the hope that you will get the hint eventually.

If you have never posted but are considering getting into it, it's a good idea
to watch the "masters," the "old hands" or "veterans" on LL-L, namely those
subscribers who contribute frequently and have been around for a long time (a
handful of them since the very beginning in 1995!) Good luck, and keep us
posted!

Reinhard "Ron" Hahn
Lowlands-L

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 20:24:48 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:24:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.122448.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 08:14 20/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
>remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
>language activists - they assure me that Scots is
>highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
>standardize it!!!

I don't think personal greatness is the issue here - even if such a
person appeared, there would be strong opposition from some parts of
the Scots-language movement. Consider, for example, C. I. Macafee's
piece "Leave the Leid Alane" in the latest edition of Lallans. I
personally was glad to see it refuted, in the same issue, by John
Tait.

Anyone who tried this...

>He adopted the
>Barcelona dialect as the one to base the standard
>grammar and vocabulary on, but ensured that all
>spellings were truly reflective of all dialects. He
>deliberately adopted words and terms that were
>different from Castilian where they were still in use
>in some dialects (even if not in Barcelona), or even
>where they had a common literary use.

or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
(misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

Ron,

You wrote:

> However, I would like to add that I feel that people ought not be
chided
> for using what they feel is the native choice wherever there is a
choice,
> as long as they are still understood, and as long as we do not speak
about
> outright, organized engineering attempts.

Well this is undoubtedly true. I would in fact encourage the native
choice where possible, but only on the proviso that it is used
'properly'.

Again, the obvious example with Scots is 'speir'. 'Speir' has actually
died out in Ulster, but because it does appear in Ulster-Scots poetry
and it is still current in other dialects of Scots, I have no problem
with attempts at rekindling it here. I *do* have a problem, however,
when it is rekindled and used as a direct equivalent to the English
'ask'. Again, we're talking about spectrums. English has 'consult,
request, ask and inquire', Scots has 'speir, pree and ask' - this is
far from a perfect example, but my point is that there is no direct
one-to-one correspondence. Any attempt to apply one goes against
native usage and is actually a surrender to the dominant language,
whose semantic system the dominated language is now adopting.

This is the crux of the issue. Too few people here understand that if
you adopt English semantic boundaries in Scots, then you are thinking
in English, and you might as well use English. Too few are aware than
consistent one-to-one correspondences are rare. What is 'give' is
Scots? 'Gie'? How about 'Give me the salt'? 'See us the saut owre'.
Again, even the simplest of words lacks a one-to-one correspondence.

Another example might be 'ettle', which has now taken on a number of
extra meanings in Ulster texts. However, that is maybe not so serious
because there has been no loss, in this case, of an idiomatic
distinction.

So yes, native speakers of course do not have to be linguists. But
really people engaged in rekindling obsolete and obsolescent words
*do* have to be aware of their idiomatic and grammatical usage
(whether in another dialect or another era), as well as taking account
of what native speakers feel about them.

Best regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

Thanks.  You make some interesting points (above), and I agree in general.

Of course, if there is to be any language planning, such as standardization,
it ought to be under the guidance of people with some linguistics background
as well as high degrees of proficiency, at least with extensive consultation
of genuine native speakers.  Only that way can improper choices be avoided.

You wrote:

> Too few are aware than
> consistent one-to-one correspondences are rare. What is 'give' is
> Scots? 'Gie'? How about 'Give me the salt'? 'See us the saut owre'.
> Again, even the simplest of words lacks a one-to-one correspondence.

There are numerous such examples in the case of Low Saxon (Low German) vs
German too.

If you say, _Geev mi (maal) dat Sult_ (= German _Gib mir (mal) das Salz_) it
would be all right if the request came for instance from someone cooking;
he/she wants someone to fetch the salt.  Similarly, _Reck mi (maal) dat Sult_
(= German _Reich mir (mal) das Salz_) would assume passing the Salt across
some barrier or distance.  It is all right to render 'Pass me the salt' (said
at the table) as _Gib mir (mal bitte) das Salz_ or _Reich mir (mal bitte) das
Salz_ in German.  The authentic Low Saxon expression in this context would be
_Do mi maal dat Sult_ ("Do me once the salt"), and the literal German
translation *_Tu mir mal das Salz_ would be incorrect.

Similarly, I have heard and read 'Take a seat' rendered as _Sett di daal_
("Set yourself down") or even _Set di hen_ (= German _Setz dich hin_).  _Sett
di daal_ is all right, but it is rather general and not quite idiomatically
correct for '(Walk across the room and) Take a seat'.  You might say _Sett di
daal_ to someone who is already standing next to the seat, for instance a
pupil who keeps standing up.  In offering someone a seat it is proper to say,
_Gah(t) sitten_ ("Go to sit") or, under German influence the deferential form
_Gaht Se sitten_.

What is needed in textbooks is a good assortment of such phrases to illustrate
proper idiomatic usage and to drive home the point that word-for-word
translations from German are frequently inappropriate and incorrect, are
hallmarks of what is known as "Patentplatt" (Low Saxon made up on the basis of
German).  Emphasizing this point seems particularly important where people's
minds are still haunted by the beliefs that Scots is a form of English, Low
Saxon (Low German) is a form of German, and dialects of the same language have
word-for-word correspondence.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 20:41:01 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:41:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.FEB.2001.124101.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Code switching" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

> From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Multi-linguistic environments
> Roger Thijs heeft geschreven:
> > An issue of today was how to formulate delivery terms
> > or payment credits of two weeks in screens where people have
> > to enter a number of days in a text box:
> If the form is electronic, the computer could add a uniform
> number of days, regardless of language (or user's poor math);
> that would also confirm the precise date for the user, e.g. <15.
> april>.  Someone would still have to decide definitively how to
> define "two weeks", but there would then be one standard at
> least.

Thanks Stefan,
what we basically are doing, for critical spots, is just forseeing "list
boxes" for having people to select options, with a clear rulesetting
behind each element of the selection list.
Though customizing of standard packages is not obvious when dealing with
large (governmental) organizations, since
- budgets are strictly linked to tender books
add to that
- the risks of incompatibility of customized parts with furture releases
of the basic package
and typical, for govenmental applications in this kingdom of Belgium:
one has to foresee guis (user fronts) in 4 versions:
- Dutch for the North
- French for the South
- bilingual Dutch/French for Brussels
- German for the East.
Adding more features, as e.g. list boxes for each of the languages,
implies more "objects" to mantain, and to controll with future software
releases.

It's curious that powerpoint presentations reporting the progress of the
implementation are in Belgian English most of the time.

Back to code switching:
I'm trying to follow-up what (uncounsciously) triggers Dutch-French code
switching during meetings:
- 1th rule: when somebody needs to be convinced, one switches to his
language (the seller chooses the language of the buyer)
- 2d rule (subordinated to the second rule): when one doesn't have
directly in mind the translation of a key term or expression in the
language one is speaking, one switches to the other language for a
while.

What surprises me: the "old politeness" is playing a very minor role. In
the past, when just one of the participants was speaking French-only,
the whole conversation was held in French. Actually, I have the
impression hardly anybody has empathy for those who only master one
language, and the old adagio "Et... pour les Flamands "la m?me chose""
(replacing a translation), is more and more frequently reversed against
monolingual Walloons, as to my perception in Brussels.

250 Years of French-speaking by the dominant class in Brussels (from the
beginning strongly pushed by the Austrians in the 18th century) turned
the population of the town, and 18 suburbs, gradually to become French
speaking for 85-90%. My perception is that nowadays Dutch is strongly
present downtown during business hours. If this will trigger a switch
back to the linguistic past for the inhabitants, I dare not say. The
Belgian population strongly moved to the outskirts and there is a
significant Maghreb population downtown. It's hard to say what
linguistic evolution this population will have in the future.

(English colonies are strongly fixed at the East of Brussels, in the
area around Tervuren; Swedish immigrants are foming a strong colony in
Waterloo, South of Brussels.
Last Sunday I toured on the flee marked in Mons: I observed  a very
strong American presence on the market: quite a lot of Americans live
around the NATO-SHAPE military basis in Casteau-Mons, about 35 miles
South of Brussels)

Btw: 3-language code switching Dutch-French-English is not exceptional
over here. That doesn't imply that the English spoken is upper-class
Oxford English. I think fluent code-switching requires a restricted
vocabulary. I remember participating at a "Managerial analytices"
training, for a complete week, in Cambridge. The course started with an
explanation of the meaning of the word "event", a richely colored
semantical analysis, taking about 2 hours. Such expos?s are not suitable
for code switching every 30 seconds..

Regards,
Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 15:57:20 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:57:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.075720.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Ron hefft schreven:

> I get a lot of questions about sources for learning (about)
> Old and Middle English [...]
> I know that quite a few Lowlanders are interested and versed
> in Old and Middle English.  If any of you (singly or in teams)
> feel inclined and confident, there is nothing to stop you from
> translating our welcoming page into these language varieties.

I have started sketching out a translation of the welcome page
into Old English and Old Saxon.  I would love to hear from
anyone interested in working with me/critiquing my translation;
feel free to email me directly if you wish:
stefansfeder at yahoo.com.
I have never done much with Middle English and so won't attempt
that translation.

For the Old Saxon, I'm inclined to include this verse _de
Heinricho_, a poem from from circa 940 AD, addressing the Saxon
emperor Heinrich, with my quick translation:

primitus quoque dixit   Toeerst s? he ook:
wilicumo Heinrich       willkamen Hinrich
ambo vos aequivoci      wi beide hebbt den glieken Naam'.
bethiu goda endi mi     Gott un mi
nec non et sotii        un ook Fr?nn'
willicumo sid gi mi     s?nd ji mi willkumen

First of all he said:
welcome Heinrich,
we are both namesakes.
Both to God and to me
and also friends
Welcome you are unto me.

Stefan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Administrativa

Thanks, Stefan!  That sounds exciting, to use a very American phrase.

Thanks to Niels Winther I was able to add two items to our list of offline
material for English
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/english_offline.htm): two
books published in Denmark, in English.  They are the only two items currently
marked as new on that list.

Please let me know if you know of any books or tapes worth recommending, so I
can add them to our offline lists
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/guides_offline.htm).

By the way, these pages are visited relatively frequently.  (A number of other
sites link to them.)

Daily visits (unique visitors) per day on record:

Offline Materials Guides:

                Minimum Maximum
Afrikaans       1       17
Dutch           4       28
English         6       61
Frisian         1       15
Low Saxon       4       44
  General       0       17
  Pre-Modern    0       18
  Modern        1       19
Scots           0       13

Online Presentation Guides
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm):

                Minimum Maximum
Afrikaans       0       67
Creoles         0       10
Dutch           2       38
English         0       18
Frisian         0       24
General         0       13
Low Saxon       0       25
Scots           0       41

It would be nice to have such guides for Limburgish and Zeelandic/West Flemish
as well.

I'll have to find a way of making the links to the online and offline guides
more visible on the homepage, because many people visit the Lowlands-L site
and then send me messages asking what other sites there are and/or what kinds
of books and tapes are available.  I'll work on that.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 16:31:49 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.083149.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
20.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Marco Evenhuis wrote:
>
>In Zeeuws, we have 'blaeuw' for any colour stretching from blue to grey.
>It's used less and less in every day speech and replaced bij Dutch 'blauw'
>and 'grijs', except when describing the colour of a grey horse. In Dutch
>such a horse is called 'schimmel' and the colour is referred to as 'grijs'.
>In Zeeuws, we call this kind of horse a 'blaeuwen'.
>
In Dutch and Low-Saxon It's the same for cats and other animals. A
completely greyish cat, is termed a blue cat. Never understood why,
but that's how it is.

Henry Pijffers

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Color terms

Henry,

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]

Henry,
Welke "gryse" katten hebt 'n kl?yr; dey is so 'n l?t beten blau.  Daar wegen
heytt de eyn sort "Russian Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw",
"bleus russes", etc., ofschoonst nich elk eyn daar vun blau is; vaken s?nd sey
eynfach grys or 'n beten bruun.  Blau is wat bes?nners.  Villicht is up d?sse
wys' "grys" tou "blau" worden.
Gr?yten!

Henry,
Some "gray" cats have a bluish tint.  That's why one sort is called "Russian
Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw", "bleus russes", etc., even
though not all of them are bluish; some of them are simply gray or brownish.
Blue is special.  Perhaps this way "gray" came to be generalized as "blue."
Regards!

I wrote:

> Here are some of the main colors in the North Saxon dialects of Low Saxon (Low
> German) of Germany:
>
> witt [vIt]: white (> pale, clean)
>
> blau [bla.U], blaag ~ blaach [blQ:x]: blue (> drunk)
>
> violett [fio'lEt], vigelett [fige'lEt], violenblau [fi'o:ln,bla.U]:
>      violet, bluish purple (Eastern Friesland _zangen_ ['tsa.N:])
>
> rood, root [ro:t] ~ [roUt]: red (> blushed)
>
> purpur(rood) ['p`u3pu3(ro:t)]: (reddish) purple
>
> geel [ge:l]: yellow (> blond, golden, ugly, false; _geel snacken_ 'to
>      speak Germanized Low Saxon', 'to speak German', 'to talk in an
>      uppety/affected way')
>
> gr??n [gr9.In], greun [grO.In]: green (> unripe, inexperienced,
>      immature, unprocessed; e.g. _Aal gr??n_ 'fresh (vs smoked)
>      eel', _gr?nen Heern_ 'fresh (vs smoked or pickled) herring')
>
> gries [gri:s], grau [gra.U], graag [grQ:x]: gray (> pale, pallid,
>      ashen, clever, cunning; e.g., _He is 'n Griesen_ 'He's a
>      devious one')
>
> swart [sva:t], swatt [swat]: black (> dark)

I forgot:

bruun [bru:n]: brown (apparently without any derived meanings -- or?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 17:23:09 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:23:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.092309.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Colin Wilson wrote:

> or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
> (misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?
I regularly write 'synthetic English' AKA standard English. I know very few
people who actually speak like that.
I have heard it's possible to do so by placing a round object such as a
marble or plum in one's mouth;-)

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
> remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
> language activists - they assure me that Scots is
> highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
> standardize it!!!

Scots could produce such a person. The problem is not enough people would
agree with them. No matter how pragmatic, logical or well researched the
proposals.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 17:24:30 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:24:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.092430.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Administrativa"

Ron Wrote:

> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I get a lot of questions about sources for learning (about) Old and Middle
> English.  I always refer people to our specific English resource page
> (http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/english_offline.htm).
If
> you know of any other good books, please let me know, and I will add them.
>
> I know that quite a few Lowlanders are interested and versed in Old and
Middle
> English.  If any of you (singly or in teams) feel inclined and confident,
> there is nothing to stop you from translating our welcoming page into
these
> language varieties.  I know, I know ... Some will find it silly (and it
would
> require making up a few words), but it might be a "fun" thing for many
> readers.

There are some Anglo-Saxon neologisms at:

http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/4506/neolg.html

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 17:27:05 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:27:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.092705.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> Blue is special.  Perhaps this way "gray" came to be generalized as
"blue."

Could be, especially if you look at the objects that are referred to when
using the word 'blue' for (a shade of) grey. I mentioned earlier that in
Zeeuws everything stretching from bright blue to dark grey is called
'blaeuw' and that plain, dull colours are described as 'graeuw'. But there
is an example I remembered hearing earlier this week that puzzles me: the
colour of milk that was mixed with water to, let's say increase farmers'
income, was also called 'blaeuw'. But this colour doesn't fit the
description above: it's not a bright, clear colour. Therefore, I would have
expected to be called 'graeuw'...

Some other colors in Zeeuws then:

wit (bright white)
bleik (off-white, so not only used to describe pale)
oeranje (orange)
ro?d (red)
geluw (yellow)
groeen (green)
bruun (brown)
zwart (black)
gries (grey)
...

regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 21:00:04 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:00:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.130004.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

Colin Wilson wrote:

> or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
> (misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

and Andy Eagle replied:

> Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?

Of course it is! But I think a major problem, or let's say challenge, with
relatively small regional languages without (or no longer with) an accepted
standard form is local pride. On the one hand, local pride could be seen as
a condition for survival of a language. But on the other, when it comes to
standardization or acceptance of texts in a standardized spelling or even a
standardized form of the language, strong local pride and 'awakened'
speakers could be a huge disadvantage.
In the case of Catalan, Fabra was lucky to be one of the few people that
were really concerned with the language. Plus that only a very small number
of speakers had an opinion on the subject or even cared about it.
Times changed. People have opinions about everything, simply because of the
huge amount of information that they get by the paper, tv, radio, internet,
etc. People are more aware and involved now then ever before.

When we constructed a spelling for internal (!) use in our Noe-magazine, all
regional media jumped on the subject: 'Zeeuws does not exist; there are only
Zeelandic dialects, so constructing a standard spelling is useless'. They
refused to see that we only made a spelling  in which all different dialects
of Zeeuws could be written without these dialects having to give up their
own identity (all dialects were still recognisable as such). Most speakers
agreed with the media and sent in letters to us and the newspapers. 'I don't
speak Zeeuws, I speak the dialect of the village of Westkapelle'... (I don't
speak Scots, I speak Doric/Glaswegian ('the Patter', wasn't it?)/etc.)

Our standardized way of spelling all dialects of Zeeuws has become more or
less excepted over the years and our magazine florishes. But working towards
a standardized Zeelandic writing language is still very much not-done. Even
blending in words from other dialects than your own in peotry and prose is
not done! Allthough some begin to 'blend' now and the results are promising.
There is no Zeelandic Hugh McDiairmid yet, but we'll get there some day...
I believe we would have had less problems when our little language
renaissance of the past ten years would have taken place much earlier.

By the way, both spelling (to be found under 'Schriefwiezer') and examples
of texts written in this spelling (try Noe-magazine nr. 10, our latest
issue) can be found at www.zeeuws.cjb.net.

regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Marco,

I was very interested to read what you kindly shared above about the Zeelandic
experience.  It is pretty much the same story in the Low Saxon (Low German)
scenario -- same attitudes, same fears, same arguments, same obstacles, but
unfortunately not the same success as yet (although our success is that at
least our language has been officially recognized).

It is very difficult to get people to do what someone once called _?ver d'n
eygenen t?llerrand kyken_ ("to look beyond the edge of one's own plate") and
to abandon the fear that the introduction of a uniform, language-specific
*system* of spelling somehow messes with or obliterates people's respective
home dialects.  As you know from your own experience, dialectal differences
will remain if a uniform system is used, but interdialectal reading
comprehension will be improved.

I commend you on your efforts and congratulate you on your success with _Noe_
and beyond.  Daar k??nt wy wat vun af-leyren.

Gr??tnissen,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: It would be nice if the Ze?uwse Taelsite had a link to our Lowlands-L
page under "Butendiekse taelen in de Laege Landen."  And we should start a
Zeelandic links page for LL-L.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 00:36:53 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:36:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.FEB.2001.163653.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 09:23 21/02/01 -0800, Andy Eagle wrote:

>Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?

Not necessarily: see below.

>I regularly write 'synthetic English' AKA standard English. I know very few
>people who actually speak like that.

So-called "standard" English isn't synthetic, in that it isn't
a synthesis - something that someone has put together, combining
different components from different sources. "Standard" English is
really just a formalised version of the dialect spoken by the
English ruling class.

The term "synthetic Scots" was coined (possibly even by the poet
himself) to describe the work of Hugh MacDiarmid, who wrote poetry
in a form of Scots composed from words drawn from different regional
dialects, as well as a small proportion of obsolete vocabulary
found in dictionaries.

At the time, it was an apt description, but around the time of the
Second World War the word "synthetic" came to be (mis-)applied to
ersatz products so that, for example, "synthetic coffee" was
something that tasted similar to coffee but wasn't coffee. The
connotations of the word "synthetic" are fairly derogatory nowadays,
and are only slightly short of describing something as "fake".

When I sent an early draft of the manuscript for "Stertin Oot in
Scots" to Hodder & Stoughton to be considered for publication, they
(for reasons best known to themselves) gave it to a Gaelic-language
activist to review. I don't know who it was, except that it was
either Boyd Robertson or Iain Taylor, but he gave it a nervous,
anxious review, hostile not just to what I'd written but even to the
very idea of teaching Scots. One of his comments was "the language
in this book appears to be a form of "synthetic Scots".

Although it was no such thing, the reviewer was quite content
to exploit, disingenuously, the now derogatory connotations of the
word "synthetic" to an editor who probably knew nothing of the
significance of the term "synthetic Scots". Needless to say, the
manuscript was rejected for publication.

As a description for a form of Scots derived in this way, I'd
much prefer the term "composite Scots". I'm not convinced of the
need for such a thing, although I do believe that there's a need
for some basic standards, and I also believe there's a great need
for an accepted generic Scots orthography.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"
>
> Ian James Parsley wrote:
>
> >Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
> > remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
> > language activists - they assure me that Scots is
> > highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
> > standardize it!!!
>
> Scots could produce such a person. The problem is not enough people would
> agree with them. No matter how pragmatic, logical or well researched the
> proposals.

I think you have to be careful what you say (or keep on saying)
about the nature of Scots and its users/proponents.

Although Scots enthusiasts do disagree a lot, this is a lot to
do with the ignorance that derives from the fact that no-one
has a formal education in the language, coupled with the fact
that some bring political motives into the arena.

I think we need to stop touting the idea that proponents of
Scots never agree about the language, before the sheer
impossibility of educating anyone in the proper use of the
language turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Why should us Scots hold a special position on contumaciousness?
The only difference between us and the Catalans is that we
tolerate and even propagate these myths about ourselves.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Marco Evenhuis wrote:

>
> Colin Wilson wrote:
>
> > or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
> > (misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.
>
> and Andy Eagle replied:
>
> > Is not any form of language standardisation 'synthetic'?
>
> Of course it is! But I think a major problem, or let's say challenge, with
> relatively small regional languages without (or no longer with) an
accepted
> standard form is local pride. On the one hand, local pride could be seen
as
> a condition for survival of a language. But on the other, when it comes to
> standardization or acceptance of texts in a standardized spelling or even
a
> standardized form of the language, strong local pride and 'awakened'
> speakers could be a huge disadvantage.

The same is true with Scots especially vis-ayis Central and northern
Dialects.
Any good standard written form should be read and pronounced as it locally
would be. The spellings then represent under lying phonemes an not a
particular pronunciation. No variety is seen as more 'proper' than any
other.

> In the case of Catalan, Fabra was lucky to be one of the few people that
> were really concerned with the language. Plus that only a very small
number
> of speakers had an opinion on the subject or even cared about it.
> Times changed. People have opinions about everything, simply because of
the
> huge amount of information that they get by the paper, tv, radio,
internet,
> etc. People are more aware and involved now then ever before.

It's hopefully through the use of such media that people can be persuaded
that a 'pan-dialect' written form makes sense for communicating to a wider
audience that your own village etc.

> When we constructed a spelling for internal (!) use in our Noe-magazine,
all
> regional media jumped on the subject: 'Zeeuws does not exist; there are
only
> Zeelandic dialects, so constructing a standard spelling is useless'. They
> refused to see that we only made a spelling  in which all different
dialects
> of Zeeuws could be written without these dialects having to give up their
> own identity (all dialects were still recognisable as such). Most speakers
> agreed with the media and sent in letters to us and the newspapers. 'I
don't
> speak Zeeuws, I speak the dialect of the village of Westkapelle'... (I
don't
> speak Scots, I speak Doric/Glaswegian ('the Patter', wasn't it?)/etc.)

I take it all the so called 'power languages' mention during theis thread
have dialect as well but no one seems to argue "there are only 'insert power
language name here' dialects, so constructing a standard spelling is
useless". Such attitudes are based on the assumtion that leser used language
have no merit.

> Our standardized way of spelling all dialects of Zeeuws has become more or
> less excepted over the years and our magazine florishes. But working
towards
> a standardized Zeelandic writing language is still very much not-done.
Even
> blending in words from other dialects than your own in peotry and prose is
> not done! Allthough some begin to 'blend' now and the results are
promising.
> There is no Zeelandic Hugh McDiairmid yet, but we'll get there some day...
> I believe we would have had less problems when our little language
> renaissance of the past ten years would have taken place much earlier.

Words from various English dialects spread through TV. Scots is as good as
never heard on TV so any spreading of words through the use of written media
is decried as artificial. These critics seem to be using two different sets
of rules when they make such comments.

In English, if people here a word or phrase they like - for what ever
reason- on TV or read it in a well known best-seller they may adopt it. No
one seems to object. How many cockney phrases or Americanisms etc. are used
up and down the british Isles because of (London based) TV? Do this with
Scots and the critics are down on you like a ton o bricks.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 16:56:43 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:56:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.085643.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Color terms" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:
>
>Henry,
>Welke "gryse" katten hebt 'n kl?yr; dey is so 'n l?t beten blau.  Daar wegen
>heytt de eyn sort "Russian Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw",
>"bleus russes", etc., ofschoonst nich elk eyn daar vun blau is; vaken s?nd sey
>eynfach grys or 'n beten bruun.  Blau is wat bes?nners.  Villicht is up d?sse
>wys' "grys" tou "blau" worden.
>Gr?yten!
>
>Henry,
>Some "gray" cats have a bluish tint.  That's why one sort is called "Russian
>Blue", "Russische Blaukatze", "Russisch Blauw", "bleus russes", etc., even
>though not all of them are bluish; some of them are simply gray or brownish.
>Blue is special.  Perhaps this way "gray" came to be generalized as "blue."
>Regards!
>
Well, I delved into cat colors and cat genetics a while ago, because I'm quite
a cat lover. There isn't any mentioning of the term "gray" ever being used for
a Russian Blue or a British Blue. It's always been "blue". Even though not all
of them have that shade of blue, as you mentioned. So I think the use of blue
for gray is a bit older than cat breeding history.

regards,
Henry

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 17:05:45 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:05:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.090545.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language survival"

Colin Wilson wrote:

> As a description for a form of Scots derived in this way, I'd
> much prefer the term "composite Scots"

"composite" still strikes me as a bit abstract and not so
positive.  Might not something like "all-Scots Scots" or
"broadreach Scots" (braedreach?) give it a more positive tone
and catchier name, something that stresses that it is reaching
out across the varieties of Scots?

Stefan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

> "composite" still strikes me as a bit abstract and not so
> positive.  Might not something like "all-Scots Scots" or
> "broadreach Scots" (braedreach?) give it a more positive tone
> and catchier name, something that stresses that it is reaching
> out across the varieties of Scots?

How about "General Scots," "Universal Scots" or "Interdialectal Scots"?
("Common Scots" won't do, I suppose, because of the semantic range of
'common', including 'vulgar'.)

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 21.FEB.2001 (06) [E/LS]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

> I was very interested to read what you kindly shared above about the
Zeelandic
> experience.  It is pretty much the same story in the Low Saxon (Low
German)
> scenario -- same attitudes, same fears, same arguments, same obstacles,
but
> unfortunately not the same success as yet (although our success is that at
> least our language has been officially recognized).

I wouldn't call the success of out magazine a success for the Zeelandic
language  as a whole. There is not one single place where you can learn the
language, there is no attention what so ever for it in education, there
isn't even a university where the language is studied (which makes Zeeuws
unique within the Netherlands and Flanders), there is only very limited
media attention (Omroep Zeeland, the only regional radio and tv-station,
only broadcasts one hour a week in Zeeuws on radio and no Zeeuws on
television), etc.

Our magazine, which we started early 1998, now has about 1,000 subscribers
(700 of them living in Zeeland, some 200 elsewhere in the Netherlands or
Belgium and about 100 in e.g. Canada, the US, Scotland, Ireland, northern
France, etc.). For the majority, the first Noe-magazine they received, was
the first time that they were ever confronted with their language in a
written form.
About 140 different people wrote articles, prose, poetry for it, about 120
never wrote anything in Zeeuws before that.
So in that way, Noe is a success. On a very small scale though.

Thanks for your support, Ron,

regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 23:33:40 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:33:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.153340.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> In English, if people here a word or phrase they like - for what ever
> reason- on TV or read it in a well known best-seller they may adopt it. No
> one seems to object. How many cockney phrases or Americanisms
> etc. are used
> up and down the british Isles because of (London based) TV? Do this with
> Scots and the critics are down on you like a ton o bricks.

I'd say little or no Cockney gets into other dialects via TV.
The reason London expressions spread is because there are so
many Londoners on the island as compared to anybody else.

Certainly there's a popular long-running Cockney soap and
various other programmes by Londoners (again expected as
there are so many Londoners), but there are also similar
and even longer-running soaps from the north west of England,
and nobody in Scotland starts talking like that.

You should also note that there is very little Cockney spoken
on TV. One complaint I do often here from the Londoners down
here is that the Cockney of "Eastenders" has been grossly
anglified so that the rest of the nation can understand -
pretty much in the way that programmes by what should be
Scots speakers are heavily anglified for non-Scots.

Because of the ongoing tradition of rhyming slang in Cockney
many speakers are not only incomprehensible to people from
other parts of the island but sometimes trip each other up
because new expressions continually arise and immediately
become accepted as standard by those who have heard them. A
couple of young chaps from London I work with and who know
"all" the rhyming slang, recently overheard someone in a
London bar asking for a "couple of Nelsons". They were
stumped until they saw the barman reaching for the Stella
Artois!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 00:46:51 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:46:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
 22.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.164651.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival"

Colin Wilson wrote:

> So-called "standard" English isn't synthetic, in that it isn't
> a synthesis - something that someone has put together, combining
> different components from different sources. "Standard" English is
> really just a formalised version of the dialect spoken by the
> English ruling class.

To a certain extent I agree with you but were not the prescriptive
introduction of Latin grammar features such as not ending a sentence with a
preposition, avoidance of split infinitives and the 'you and I' business
'synthetic'? Not to mention pseudo etymological spellings like the <s> in
island and the <b> in debt etc. What about the numerous vocabulary items
coined from Latin and Greek roots?

> As a description for a form of Scots derived in this way, I'd
> much prefer the term "composite Scots". I'm not convinced of the
> need for such a thing, although I do believe that there's a need
> for some basic standards, and I also believe there's a great need
> for an accepted generic Scots orthography.

I prefer the term General Scots.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 01:21:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:21:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.FEB.2001.172154.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I was interested to come across the Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'to dip', 'to
bathe', 'to duck' (> noun _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'dip', 'swim', _dookers_ ~ _doukers_
'bathing costume').  It overlaps semantically greatly with what appears to be
the Low Saxon (Low German) cognate /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N] 'to duck', 'to
dive (under water, not into the water)', 'to dip' (> _duuknackt_ ~
_duuknackig_ "duck-necked" = 'with hanging head').  These appear to be related
to Dutch _duiken_ 'to take a dive', 'to plunge', 'to hide (in something)', and
German _tauchen_ 'to dive (under water, not into the water)'.  Yet, German
also has _ducken_ 'to duck'.  Are we talking about two word origins or two?
Is German _ducken_ a Low Saxon loan?  It looks that way to me.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 15:24:32 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:24:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.072432.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" (was "Language survival")
LOWLANDS-L,         22.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

Andy and Colin,

You will already be aware of plans for a Language
Learning Centre for Scots to be placed in Co Donegal
later this year.

However, the necessity under the Belfast Agreement
1998 (or 'Good Friday Agreement') for an office in
Donegal means we have had to speed up the process
somewhat.

At a recent meeting in Dublin with Donall O Riagain,
senior EBLUL adviser, he pointed out that there was no
point in such a centre without it being linked to
education in schools and that, in addition, there was
no point in placing Scots into the school system
without decent teaching materials (and materials for
teacher training). Of course, these are nigh
impossible without as least an 'educational standard',
because it will be unbelievably confusing to try to
teach people Modern Scots without some written
material, and that written material must be consistent
(you can change the system after a generation, but
it's no good tampering with it every year). This means
a form of 'Composite' or 'General' Scots is required
urgently, and that it must be agreed with Scotland
otherwise we'll end up having to do our own materials
on either side of the North Channel, and that would be
a ludicrously unnecessary expense for each side if we
can do them together.

However, before we can even do that we have to raise
awareness of the need for such a 'standard' or
'guidelines' among native speakers, and explain
exactly what it would be used for.

Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 15:26:24 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:26:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" (was "Language survival") LOWLANDS-L,
 23.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.072624.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

I have never noticed that London expressions spread
from there into other English dialacts, nobody would
use words like "barnet" for hair in Newcastle,
speaking for Tyneside I believe that there is an
increasing number of American-sounding expressions
which seem to spread but many of them can be traced
back old-Geordie expressions, or at least similar
sounding ones and through AE those expressions are
getting reinforced in Tyneside, not too surprising
when considering that AE had a strong Northern-English
influence as well and is much closer to old English
than London-English is.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 15:53:39 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:53:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.075339.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ron heff fraagt:

> Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'to dip', 'to bathe', 'to duck'

> the Low Saxon (Low German) cognate /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N]
> 'to duck', 'to dive (under water, not into the water)',

> Dutch _duiken_ 'to take a dive', 'to plunge', 'to hide (in
something)'

> German _tauchen_ 'to dive (under water, not into the water)'.
> Yet, German also has _ducken_ 'to duck'.  Are we talking about

> two word origins or two?
> Is German _ducken_ a Low Saxon loan?  It looks that way to me.

The Duden Herkunftsw?rterbuch lists Old High German
_iintu^hhan_, Dutch _duiken_, English _to duck_ and makes the
reasonable suggestion that _dukk-_ is an intensive.  It does not
mention Old High German _fertu^hhen_ "in Vergessenheit
versinken", a strong verb.
It also points out that the English bird the duck presumably
gets its name from this verb.

Thus the original verb would have been *du^kan, which gives us
_duiken_ and _tauchen_, and the intensive *dukjan > *dukkjan.
Usually a strong verb like this should have had -iu- (**diukan),
but some of them simply had long _u_, for reasons unknown, e.g.
_slutan_ 'to shut', _lukan_ 'to close', _bugan_ 'to bend, bow'
Intensives formed from such verbs have just the short -u-, and
the old ending -j- causes the consonant to double, e.g.
*skiotan/skuttjan > schiessen/sch?tzen.
>>From this we get *dukkjan > duck (sort of).  The odd thing is
that you really should get umlaut there: *d?kkjan > English
**ditch; I'm not sure why you'd get the long consonant with the
umlaut and palatalization.

Stefan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for your exhaustive explanation above, Stefan.

I wrote:

> /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N] 'to duck', 'to
> dive (under water, not into the water)', 'to dip' (> _duuknackt_ ~
> _duuknackig_ "duck-necked" = 'with hanging head')

There is another alternative form: _duuknacksch_ (with _-sch_ expressing
manner).  And there is another one with a short vowel: _ducknackig_!

I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine noun
_D?ckdalben_ ['dYkda.lb=m] ~ _D??kdalben_ ['dy:kda.lb=m] ~ _Duckdalben_
['dUkda.lb=m] (pl. same) and if it is related to the former, in this case
having umlauting in some dialects.  It denotes a group or row of large poles
or posts, partly submerge in water, to which  moored ships are tied.

I have never come across *_Dalben_ or *_Dalven_ by itself.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 18:07:11 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:07:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.100711.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> I have never come across *_Dalben_ or *_Dalven_ by itself.

I had some vague recollection of some word like "Dolben" or the
like meaning 'peg' (I was thinking of _D?bel_, which is hardly
likely to be related).  While searching in my Duden
Universalw?rterbuch, I came across High German (from Low German)
_Dalbe, Dalben_ "Kurzf[orm] von Duckdalbe, Duckdalben".  It
lists _die Duckdalbe/ der Duckdalben_ and "seltener D?ckdalbe /
D?ckdalben".  Their tentative etymology is to the tauchen/duiken
word and to Dolle < mniederd. _dolle_ "drehbare eiserne Gabel an
der Bordwand zur Aufnahme des Ruders"

It's something of a stretch from _dolle_ to _dalve_, but I can't
think of anything better right off.

English "dowel [pin]" [dau. at l] is listed as coming from Low
German _d?vel_, 'peg, block, nail".  Again, it's a stretch to
turn _d?vel_ into _Dalve_.

Stefan

----------

From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 07:53 AM 02/23/01 -0800, Stephan wrote:
>It also points out that the English bird the duck presumably
>gets its name from this verb.

"What did the Rooster do when it started to rain?"

"He took a duck under the porch"

Sorry, couldn't resist.  Say, Ron, I wonder how this pun would translate
into LS?

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Stefan wrote:

> I had some vague recollection of some word like "Dolben" or the
> like meaning 'peg'

Perhaps (*_Dolbe_ >) Modern North Saxon _Doll(e)_ [dO.l(e)] ~ _Dull_ [dU.l],
which denotes not only 'peg' and specifically 'one of two pegs between which a
boat's paddle is anchored' but can also be used to denote the same as
_D?ckdalben_ ~ _D??kdalben_ ~ _Duckdalben_ mentioned earlier.  However, I
cannot think of any other instances of assimilation of /b/ or /v/ to preceding
/l/ (/lb/~/lv/ -> ll), while assimilation of /d/ to preceding /l/, /r/ and /n/
is common in North Saxon dialects (/ld/ -> ll, /rd/ -> r(r), /nd/ -> nn; e.g.,
_holden_ > _hol(l)en_ 'to hold', _warden_ > _warren_ 'to become', _finden_ >
_finnen_ 'to find').  Besides, _Doll(e)_ ~ _Dull_ is feminine (pl. _Dollen_ ~
Dullen_), and I would expect _Dolben_ ~ _Dolven_ to be masculine.

I have never come accross *_D?vel_ or *_D?bel_ in modern dialects.  On the
other hand, Low Saxon (Low German) likes to metathesize certain consonant
sequences, especially those involving liquids (/l/ and /r/).  We have examples
such as /k??r+S/ 'choice' + manner > (_k??rsch_ ~) _k??rsch_ > _kr??sch_
'choosy', 'picky', and *_wilge_ > _Wichel_ 'willow'.  Thus, I can imagine
earlier *_d?vel_ ~ *_dovel_ to have metathesized to (*_dolve_ or *_dolev_ >)
_Doll(e)_.  Gender does not seem to be too much of a problem, considering that
a great many Low Saxon nouns occur dialectally with different genders,
sometimes with all three genders.

Ed:

> "What did the Rooster do when it started to rain?"
>
> "He took a duck under the porch"
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.  Say, Ron, I wonder how this pun would translate
> into LS?

Sorry, Ed.  It doesn't work, for two reasons:

(1) 'to take a {verb>noun)', 'to go for a {verb>noun}' and 'to have a
{verb>noun}' is uniquely English (and Scots?), I believe.

(2) /duuk-/ _duken_ ~ /duk-/ _ducken_ 'to duck' vs /aant/ _Aant_ ~ _Oont_
'duck' (the bird)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 19:35:54 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:35:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.113554.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

At 10:07 AM 02/23/01 -0800, Ron wrote:

Sorry, Ed.  It doesn't work, for two reasons:

(1) 'to take a {verb>noun)', 'to go for a {verb>noun}' and 'to have a
{verb>noun}' is uniquely English (and Scots?), I believe.

(2) /duuk-/ _duken_ ~ /duk-/ _ducken_ 'to duck' vs /aant/ _Aant_ ~ _Oont_
'duck' (the bird)

No, I meant the part about the Hahn.  I knew it wouldn't work.

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
"More buildings are destroyed every year by termites than by fires"

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

> I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine noun
> _D?ckdalben_ ['dYkda.lb=m] ~ _D??kdalben_ ['dy:kda.lb=m] ~ _Duckdalben_
> ['dUkda.lb=m] (pl. same) and if it is related to the former, in this case
> having umlauting in some dialects.  It denotes a group or row of large
poles
> or posts, partly submerge in water, to which  moored ships are tied.

I vaguely remember that this word (Dutch: dukdalf) has something to do with
'duc d'Alve'... See if I can find some more details...

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:02:28 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:02:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.150228.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> Perhaps (*_Dolbe_ >) Modern North Saxon _Doll(e)_ [dO.l(e)] ~
> _Dull_ [dU.l] [...]
> However, I  cannot think of any other instances of
> assimilation of /b/ or /v/ to preceding /l/ (/lb/~/lv/ -> ll),

> while assimilation of /d/ to preceding  /l/, /r/ and /n/
> is common in North Saxon dialects (/ld/ -> ll, /rd/ -> r(r),
> /nd/ -> nn    [...] Besides, _Doll(e)_ ~ _Dull_ is feminine
> (pl. _Dollen_ ~ > Dullen_), and I would expect _Dolben_ ~
> _Dolven_ to be masculine.

On the other hand... part of the High German territory turned
medial [v] <w> into [b], e.g. gelw- > German _gelb_ vs. _geel_
or _yellow_,  or Bavarian Iwein > Iban.
Just as /gelv/ yielded Platt _geel_ (in all dialects of Platt?),
*dolv- might yield _Dolle_, alongside _Dolve_ in other dialects,
and Dolb- in upper Germany.

As far as the gender goes, the word usually occurs in the
plural, making its gender hard to keep track of over time.

Stefan

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I was interested to come across the Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_

The Scottish National Dictionary lists "dook" as existing
in Old Scots and also lists Dutch, English and Low Saxon
cognates.

As well as the standard meaning of "to dip" or "to take a
dip", there are various other uses in modern Scots.

The local river at our village has a wide part where
children build a dam to make a large, deep pool to swim
in. This pool is called the "big dooker", and the smaller,
shallower pool in front of the dam the "wee dooker". This
sort of activity is rarer now that most localities have
an indoor swimming pool.

A "dookie piece" is a piece of bread soaked in the gravy
from mince (=American "hamburger") or stew to tide a child
over until the meal is ready. I recently discussed this
tasty morsel with a friend from Paisley whose mother also
made him this in the run-up to meal times, so it is a
country-wide thing.

Ducking for apples at Halloween is called "dookin", and
the apples are called "dookin aiples".

A member of a Baptist Church is known as a "dookit body".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Sandy wrote:

> A "dookie piece" is a piece of bread soaked in the gravy
> from mince (=American "hamburger") or stew to tide a child
> over until the meal is ready.

> Ducking for apples at Halloween is called "dookin", and
> the apples are called "dookin aiples".

This reminds me of American English 'to dunk' in the sense of 'to dip (an
object in liquid)', hence also American 'dunking for apples' and 'apple
dunking' where non-American has 'ducking for apples' and Scots has 'dookin
aiples'.  (The basketball use of 'to dunk' must be a derivation.)  According
to the _American Heritage Dictionary_, 'to dunk' comes from "Pennsylvania
Dutch" (i.e., Pennsylvania German or "Pennsylfanisch (Daitsch)," an American
dialect of Hessian German) -- I suppose _dunke_ 'to dip'.  (Pennsylvania
German has /d/ where Standard German has /t/.)  The Standard German cognate is
_tunken_ with the same meaning, usually used in the sense of dipping pieces of
food in soup, sauce or gravy, hence the derivation _Tunke_, the native
equivalent of _So?e_ (< French _sauce_) 'sauce', 'gravy'.

'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I tried to think of the Low Saxon (Low German) equivalent of German
_(ein)tunken_ in the sense of 'to dip pieces of food in soup, sauce, gravy,
cocoa, etc.'.  *_Dunken_ or *_d?nken_?  Nope.  I don't think so, even though
it works phonologically.  I would use either /dip-/ _dippen_ (cf. English 'to
dip') or /stip-/ _stippen_ (with the additional meaning of 'to touch lightly,
with a fingertip').  (_Dippen_ seems to have the German cognate _tupfen_ 'to
dab', 'to dot'. Could /stip-/ be one of those elusive roots with the s-
prefix?)  Cf. English _to stipple_.  The Low Saxon feminine noun (_Stippe_ >)
_Stipp_ (also neuter _Stipp_) denotes a thick and/or fatty sauce or gravy, or
better to say a 'dip'.)  (In Hamburg, a _Stipperspott_ is a casserole pot with
a long handle.)  The masculine noun _Stipp_ denotes 'short moment', 'jiffy',
'wink' and 'short visit', expanded to _Stippvisiet_ (> German _Stipvisite_)
'short visit'.  Masculine _Stippel_ denotes 'dot'.

Aha!  So perhaps Standard German _tunken_ and Pennsylfanisch _dunke_ are
cognates of Low Saxon _duken_ and Scots 'dook', only "Ingveonically
n-deprived"!  What do you think, folks?

Pondering,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:55:30 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:55:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.FEB.2001.155530.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Margaret Tarbet [oneko at mindspring.com]
Subject: Etymology

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:02:28 -0800, Ron wrote:

>This reminds me of American English 'to dunk' in the sense of 'to dip (an
>object in liquid)', hence also American 'dunking for apples' and 'apple
>dunking' where non-American has 'ducking for apples' and Scots has 'dookin
>aiples'.

Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?  I've
never.  'Bobbing' and 'ducking'/'dookin', yes, but never 'dunking'.
I only know 'dunk' as a transitive verb, and always in connection
with Germanic culture and coffee (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa,
Minnesota,Texas hill country).   Anything else (e.g., bread in gravy
or soup, etc.) has always been 'dip', or if in the sense of
'drench':  'sop'/'soop' or 'soak'/'sook'.

>'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I'd almost bet not, just remembering where it was popular before the
telly homogenised everything.  Or if it is American, it's
Lowlandic-American.

Margaret

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Margaret wrote:

> Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?

I have indeed, though I agree that it seems a bit strange, so I wonder if it
has been "contaminated" by non-American "ducking for apples."  Yes, usually
'to dunk' is transitive (as in "Dunkin' Donuts"), but perhaps it can be both
transitive and intransitive, as can Low Saxon _duken_ and German _tauchen_
(though transitively they tend to have the prefixes _in-_ and _ein-_
respectively).

A cursory web search brought up "dunking for apples" at these sites among
others:

http://halloweenfreak.homepage.com/halloween4.html
http://ashland-city.k12.oh.us/ahs/classes/panorama/97-10-17/pg2.html
http://132.183.145.103/forum_2/LandauKleffnerSynF/HavinofallthingsFUN.html
http://www.bsaboston.org/happening/familycamp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~SNE/bmc.htm

Go figure!

Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 19:10:36 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:10:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.FEB.2001.111036.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 18.FEB.2001 (01) [E/Z]

At 16:46 22/02/01 -0800, Andy Eagle wrote:

>To a certain extent I agree with you but were not the prescriptive
>introduction of Latin grammar features such as not ending a sentence with
a
>preposition, avoidance of split infinitives and the 'you and I' business
>'synthetic'? Not to mention pseudo etymological spellings like the <s> in
>island and the <b> in debt etc. What about the numerous vocabulary items
>coined from Latin and Greek roots?

Yes, you could probably justify the use of the word "synthetic"
here, although it doesn't have the same significance as in the
term "synthetic Scots". Deliberately introducing foreign elements
into a language is quite a different thing from creating a new
variety of a language from a synthesis of existing varieties.

My suggestion of "composite Scots" was only that, a suggestion,
and there may be better alternatives such as those that have since
been suggested here. However, I do think we need to lose the
description "synthetic" because, to many people nowadays, it just
means "bogus".

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 19:16:33 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:16:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.FEB.2001.111633.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 24.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 =======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]

At 03:55 PM 02/23/01 -0800, Margaret Tarbet wrote:

Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?  I've
never.  'Bobbing' and 'ducking'/'dookin', yes, but never 'dunking'.
I only know 'dunk' as a transitive verb, and always in connection
with Germanic culture and coffee (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa,
Minnesota,Texas hill country).   Anything else (e.g., bread in gravy
or soup, etc.) has always been 'dip', or if in the sense of
'drench':  'sop'/'soop' or 'soak'/'sook'.

>'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I'd almost bet not, just remembering where it was popular before the
telly homogenised everything.  Or if it is American, it's
Lowlandic-American.

Very interesting.  I was surprised at the theory that the word may be
borrowed into American English, since the usage is so pervasive.  We only
say "dunking" for apples at Halloween, and I've never heard any other
variant such as "ducking".  In addition to the coffee shop chain called
Dunkin' Donuts, I've also heard "to take a dunk".  Everywhere I've
travelled and lived in North America, everyone has pretty well understood
and used the verb to dunk, i.e. to dip, and although it has an almost
interchangeable meaning with the latter, yet dunk seems to be used in more
colloquial contexts.  This fact alone would not necessarily point to a
borrowed origin.  However, when I looked for it in my large Funk & Wagnalls
1914 US dictionary, I find Dunkers, but no dunking.  So perhaps it is
borrowed from Rhinelandic or Lowlandic immigrants.

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
"More buildings are destroyed every year by termites than by fires"

----------

From: Ethan Barrett [barrett at kitcarson.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]

Intersting!  In the appalachians of Virginia we commonly said bobbing for
apples, but dunking was occaisionally said in reference to the halloween
tradition.  Dunking is used in Virginia when speaking of soup and crackers
or bread or when speaking of cookies and milk.  Oh!  That is interesting!
The British call cookies buscuits. Where did the word 'cookie' come from?
Scotland?  Where before that?

-----Original Message-----
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Margaret wrote:

> Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?

I have indeed, though I agree that it seems a bit strange, so I wonder if
it
has been "contaminated" by non-American "ducking for apples."  Yes, usually

'to dunk' is transitive (as in "Dunkin' Donuts"), but perhaps it can be
both
transitive and intransitive, as can Low Saxon _duken_ and German _tauchen_
(though transitively they tend to have the prefixes _in-_ and _ein-_
respectively).

A cursory web search brought up "dunking for apples" at these sites among
others:

http://halloweenfreak.homepage.com/halloween4.html
http://ashland-city.k12.oh.us/ahs/classes/panorama/97-10-17/pg2.html
http://132.183.145.103/forum_2/LandauKleffnerSynF/HavinofallthingsFUN.html
http://www.bsaboston.org/happening/familycamp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~SNE/bmc.htm

Go figure!

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

> I tried to think of the Low Saxon (Low German) equivalent of
> German _(ein)tunken_ in the sense of 'to dip pieces of food in

> soup, sauce, gravy, cocoa, etc.'.  *_Dunken_ or *_d?nken_?
> Nope.  I don't think so, even though  it works
> phonologically.  I would use either /dip-/ _dippen_
> (cf. English 'to dip') or /stip-/ _stippen_ (with the
> additional meaning of 'to touch lightly,
> with a fingertip').  (_Dippen_ seems to have the German
> cognate _tupfen_ 'to dab', 'to dot'. Could /stip-/ be one of
> those elusive roots with the s- prefix?)

could very easily be, they are a lot of them.  Of course, on the
other hand, it's not easy to tell those apart from chance
resemblances.

> Aha!  So perhaps Standard German _tunken_ and Pennsylfanisch
> _dunke_ are cognates of Low Saxon _duken_ and Scots 'dook',
> only "Ingveonically n-deprived"!  What do you think, folks?

It's problematic-  Ingveonic Nasalschwund und Ersatzdehnung only
happened in front of spirants: f, th, s, as in finf/fiif, uns/us
etc.  There isn't any parallel for n disappearing before k.

On the other hand- if we go way back, to Proto-Indo-European,
which frequently put the curious n-infix -into- verbs under some
circumstances (e.g. stand/stood, Latin frango/fractus 'break',
etc.).  Unfortunately, that should happen only in strong verbs.
So  it's a stretch, but a thought.
The Duden etymologic dictionary connects _tunken_ to a root
*teng-, 'to moisten', related to Lat. _tingere, tinctura_ 'to
moisten'.  Now, etymology is a somewhat statistical science- we
can be confident that the bulk of etymologies are sound, but
unless a word has something rather unique about it, you can't be
sure if any individual etymology is correct.  Still, the Duden
etymology works better than what I suggested.

Steff

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 21:03:26 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:03:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.FEB.2001.130326.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 15:33 22/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:
>I'd say little or no Cockney gets into other dialects via TV.
>The reason London expressions spread is because there are so
>many Londoners on the island as compared to anybody else.

I do remember reading of a study a couple of years ago where it was
shown that the speech of children in some areas of Glasgow was
being affected by London English. This really would have to be
caused by the TV, as those children's direct personal contact with
London English would be minimal.

I wonder if Sandy, or anyone, can suggest an explanation for how
"cheers" has largely displaced "thanks" in colloquial usage, even
here in northern Scotland.

I can honestly say that I had *never* heard the word used in that
way, until I took a job in Potters Bar (just outside London) in
1979. Nowadays, you even see it in written Scots, in the newsgroups
for example.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 01:00:19 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:00:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.FEB.2001.170019.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language contacts"

> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 22.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
>
> I do remember reading of a study a couple of years ago where it was
> shown that the speech of children in some areas of Glasgow was
> being affected by London English. This really would have to be
> caused by the TV, as those children's direct personal contact with
> London English would be minimal.

There are a few constants to be borne in mind here.

One is that very few people pick up any significant amount of
usage without meeting someone in person who speaks that way.
This is because passive and active vocabularies are separated
- it takes a conscious effort to keep moving words from ones
passive to ones active vocabulary and so change ones speech
patterns - or, for that matter, across the written/spoken word
barrier. (And as an aside, it's worth stopping to think for a
moment about why it's almost impossible to get Scots speakers
to improve their Scots vocabulary - someone has to go first,
and this is a role that's normally taken by teachers or parents.
If teachers only use English and parents don't correct their
children's Scots, then the language starts to die.)

Anyway, this is why language isn't transmitted through a passive
medium like TV. If it were, then surely British women of all ages
would be speaking a mixture of Cockney, Manky and Scouse by now?
Linguistic maps show language change occurring along trunk roads
and railways, hence cities taking up on the permanent changes
more quickly than country areas.

The exception is youth slang, where younger people deliberately
pick up expressions from the TV and certain types of film and use
them with their peers to show that they're up-to-date. This sort
of language tends to be transient, however. For example, the
resuscitated "cool" of modern youth doesn't mean the same thing
as it did in the sixties. The craze for "dudespeak" that was rife
amongst British youth only five years ago has vanished, being
replaced by such expressions as "chilled", "tops banana" &c.

One thing worth noting, though, is that some new trends such as
email and newsgroups do excercise active vocabulary, but there's
still the written/spoken word barrier to protect native speech.

> I wonder if Sandy, or anyone, can suggest an explanation for how
> "cheers" has largely displaced "thanks" in colloquial usage, even
> here in northern Scotland.

I don't think I've heard it in my part of Scotland - certainly
I never use it myself. It's possible that people have become
used to using this word through picking it up in drinking
routines.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 19:17:52 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:17:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.111752.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

 ======================================================================
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 =======================================================================

From: Pat Reynolds [pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Possibly not counting as a 'significant' change, a study in Milton
Keynes (Bucks) about ten years ago (I think) found that young people
were speaking what you'ld expect - except they'd got a few Australian
vowel sounds, picked up from soaps.

Best wishes to all,
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years
time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 19:20:06 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:20:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.112006.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

> I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine noun
>.....~ _Duckdalben_
>.  It denotes a group or row of large
> poles or posts, partly submerge in water, to which  moored ships are
tied.
>
> I have never come across *_Dalben_ or *_Dalven_ by itself.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

D?eset Waterbauwe?rks es erfunnen worn van Hertog d'Alba.
Bor?m  de L?e denn de besunnere Anordnung van P?hle und P?ste
im Water Dalben n?mt weit ek nit.
Gued gaohn
Reiner

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 02:57:56 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:57:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.185756.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (02) [E/LS]

> From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
> Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
>
> > I have always wondered about the Low Saxon (Low German) masculine
noun
> >.....~ _Duckdalben_
> D?eset Waterbauwe?rks es erfunnen worn van Hertog d'Alba.
> Bor?m  de L?e denn de besunnere Anordnung van P?hle und P?ste
> im Water Dalben n?mt weit ek nit.
> Gued gaohn
> Reiner

Hieronder wat erover op de CDROM van het WNT (Woordenboek der
Nederlandsche Taal) te vinden is:

--- quote (pasted from the CD ROM):

DUKDALF, znw. m. Ontleend aan den eigennaam Duc d' Albe.

1) De hertog van Alva, en bij uitbreiding: wreed tyran. || Dien
snorcker, die ... van syn vromicheyt soo wonder veel vertelt Als of hy
had Ducdalf geslagen uyttet velt, V. BEAUMONT 64. Een party wyven die my
voor een tyran, voor een beul, voor een Ducdalf uitschelden, V. EFFEN,
Spect. 1, 82.

2) In een vaarwater staande zware paal, gesteund door drie tot zes
symmetrisch geplaatste schoorpalen. || Duckdalf. Een hooft van zware
palen in 't water geslagen, daer men schepen aen belegt, en vast maekt,
't geen zijn naem behout van den Hertogh van Alva ..., die insgelijcks
hart en onverzettelijck was, als dit paelwerk, WITSEN, Scheepsb. 489 b.
Verscheiden' schepen werden zo vreesselyk geslingerd van den wind, dat
zy, de zogenaamde Dukd'alven, zynde bossen van zwaar paalwerk, met
yzeren bouten aan een geklonken, waaraan zy vast lagen, uit den grond
rukkende, van hunne ankers dreeven, WAGEN., Amst. 1, 736 a. Om hem
(Alva) te vernederen, noemt men ook de groote palen Ducdalven, die door
vier of zes andere ondersteund, in diepe wateren staan, en geschikt
zijn, om groote scheepstouwen om vast te slaan, en op een' afstand
gezien eenigzins de gedaante hebben van een mager menschenhoofd, dat uit
een' Spaanschen mantel steekt, terwijl dit ondertusschen voorwerpen
zijn, die met geene achting behandeld en geheel niet ontzien worden,
LOOSJES, Lijnsl. 1, 381. Deze paardelijnen of kabeltouwen ... worden
vastgemaakt op dus genoemde ducd'alven, zijnde zware in den grond
geheide of gegravene palen, MOSSEL, Manoeuvres 258. Daar krielde het van
tjalken en sloepen, van boeijers en jollen en gieken, de eenen
vastgesjord aan den wal, de anderen in het midden der rivier voor anker
liggend, de meesten ... aan de stevige ducdalven bevestigd, BUSKEN HUET,
Lidew. 1, 88. Het inheien van ... dukdalven, Alg. Voorschr. 1901, ? 194.

---endquote

Regards,
Roger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 02:59:53 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:59:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.185953.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

At 17:00 25/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:

>Anyway, this is why language isn't transmitted through a passive
>medium like TV. If it were, then surely British women of all ages
>would be speaking a mixture of Cockney, Manky and Scouse by now?
>Linguistic maps show language change occurring along trunk roads
>and railways, hence cities taking up on the permanent changes
>more quickly than country areas.

It would be good if Sandy was right about this, but I have my doubts,
and I'm not the only one. If Sandy is right, then minority language
campaigners in many places are labouring under a massive
misunderstanding. Some people have fought long and hard to get
a decent TV service, in some cases (such as with Welsh, for
example) threatening to starve themselves to death unless their
demands were met. If it's true that language isn't transmitted (I
do like the pun) through TV, then any such sacrifice would have been
for nothing.

I've been waiting for any British women here to comment on the
implication that they only watch those programmes where "Cockney,
Manky and Scouse" are used (for anyone who doesn't know, the
programmes concerned are soap operas) but perhaps there aren't any
among our readers. That aside, I think it's reasonable to say that the
dominant form of language on TV is what is often called "BBC
English", and I also don't think anyone can reasonably doubt that
this is the direction towards which language in the UK has been moving
at least since TV started in the middle of the last century.

I think Sandy actually undermines his argument with his comment, which
I didn't quote above, that "it takes a conscious effort to keep
moving words from ones passive to ones active vocabulary". I suggest
that people *will* make that conscious effort, if an incentive is
there for them to do so. I also suggest that such an incentive
does exist, in that BBC English is a prestige variety, and everyone
knows it.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 03:03:03 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:03:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (05) [E/S]
Message-ID: <MON.26.FEB.2001.190303.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning"

Colin wrote:

> My suggestion of "composite Scots" was only that, a suggestion,
> and there may be better alternatives such as those that have since
> been suggested here. However, I do think we need to lose the
> description "synthetic" because, to many people nowadays, it just
> means "bogus".

A gree wi ye on that ane!

Andy Eagle

------------

From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

At 07:24 23/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>because it will be unbelievably confusing to try to
>teach people Modern Scots without some written
>material, and that written material must be consistent
>(you can change the system after a generation, but
>it's no good tampering with it every year). This means
>a form of 'Composite' or 'General' Scots is required
>urgently, and that it must be agreed with Scotland
>otherwise we'll end up having to do our own materials
>on either side of the North Channel

I understand Ian James Parsley's argument here, although I don't
necessarily agree with every point of it. It is possible to
teach a laanguage without a set standard: one obvious example is
Scottish Gaelic, where a set orthographic convention is taught,
but in other respects teachers and pupils use local language
features freely.

However, if the Ulster Scots lobby choose to approach the Scottish
authorities about this, although I wish them well I suspect that
they would find that the Scottish Education Department (does
anyone know whether the name has changed since self-government?)
has neither the interest nor the budget to co-operate in such a
venture.

However, one step toward the existence of a 'Composite' or 'General'
Scots was taken a few years ago, when Alasdair Allan wrote his
Ph.D thesis (1998) on the whole issue of language planning for Scots,
and devoted a large part of the work on the question of
"standardisation" (perhaps we'd better say "composition"). I had
the chance to read it in an unfinished form, and on that basis I
can say that anyone with an interest in this area could do much worse
than start by reading Allan's thesis.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 16:42:26 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:42:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.FEB.2001.084226.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (05) [E/S]

Colin,

Well, I wonder if we're not already down-playing the
achievements made so far by Scots. We have the
'Grammar Broonie', 'Doadie's Bodie' and a whole Scots
course (written by Sheila Douglas) which would be
ideal for schools, as well as 'the Kist' of course.
The real problem is not that the products don't exist,
but that they are not marketed properly (no criticism
meant here - marketing takes initial capital as well).

The issue is that there is little benefit in having
all these things available, if there is not some
agreement on a 'General Scots'. As you suggest, this
would be nothing like as rigid a standard as 'BBC
English' or the French of the Academie Francaise,
merely a set of agreed orthographic guidelines which
could be reviewed after 20 years.

Of course, agreement on these issues is rare - usually
it simply takes one major work (such as a Bible
Translation - although even that wasn't enough in our
case!) whose spellings become widely adopted.

With kind regards,
Ian
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 16:54:02 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:54:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.FEB.2001.085402.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/LS]

Geachte Lowlanders,

Dukdalven kan ook voorkomen van duikdelven, dus onder water uitgevoerde
delfwerken om meerpalen te heien. Dat deze dukdalven dan ver achteraf, in
de
Spaanse tijd, vergeleken werden met Alva lijkt me zeer gewoon.

Het is opvallend hoe rijk het Nederlands is aan woorden; er bestaan maar
weinig woorden uit andere talen die men er niet in terugvindt. Niet voor
niets bezit het Nederlands het grootste woordenboek ter wereld; het WNT,
dat
werkt met 38.000.000 woorden en men is nog volop bezig met woorden te
verzamelen. Bovendien is er in het Nederlands een merkwaardige samenhang
van
woorden die men bij andere talen nooit zover doorgedreven kan terugvinden,
wat tot gevolg heeft dat het Nederlands een ideale testtaal is voor het
achterhalen of twee verschillende, maar op elkaar gelijkende woorden, wel
uit eenzelfde woordkern voortkomen, bij voorbeeld het geval met de woorden:

> Scots word _dook_ ~ _douk_ 'to dip', 'to bathe', 'to duck'

> the Low Saxon (Low German) cognate /duuk-/ _duken_ ['du:k=N]
> 'to duck', 'to dive (under water, not into the water)',

- duiken, duik, duiker, doken, onderduiken, dukdalven (duikdelven), enz.
- dijk, de dijker, dijkdeven, induiken, buitendijks, dijkgraaf, (le
dyckgraef), enz.
- diep, uitdiepen, verdiepen, opdiepen, ondiep, het diep, Dieppe, enz.
- bad, baden, bading, enz.
- delven, gedolven, dijkdelver, enz.
- dunken, me dunkt dat ..., = onderkennen!, een hoge dunk, dunk zoals duik
heeft maken met onder-, onderwater en onderverstaen.

De Nederlandse vergelijkende woordenschat is werkelijk oeverloos en die is
er niet zo maar vanzelf gekomen; het is het gevolg van een voorgeschiedenis

die in de laatste drie eeuwen werd vernietigd, doodgezwegen, verschreven,
en
"gediaboliseerd", uit schrik voor wat ???

Met achtingsvolle groetenf

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 26.FEB.2001 (03) [D/E/LS]

Reiner Brauckmann wrote

> > D?eset Waterbauwe?rks es erfunnen worn van Hertog d'Alba.
> > Bor?m  de L?e denn de besunnere Anordnung van P?hle und P?ste
> > im Water Dalben n?mt weit ek nit.

Roger Thijs quoted from the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal):

> 2) In een vaarwater staande zware paal, gesteund door drie tot zes
> symmetrisch geplaatste schoorpalen. || Duckdalf. Een hooft van zware
> palen in 't water geslagen, daer men schepen aen belegt, en vast maekt,
> 't geen zijn naem behout van den Hertogh van Alva ..., die insgelijcks
> hart en onverzettelijck was, als dit paelwerk, WITSEN, Scheepsb. 489 b.

Earlier, I mentioned remembering a connection between the word dukdalf and
the Duc d'Alve. Roger ans Reiner suggest the same. The 'Etymologisch
Woordenboek' by dr. J. De Vries however gives the following:

'dukdalf: een nl-fries woord, dat men wel in verband wil brengen met duc
d'Alve, dus de naam van de hertog van Alva. Ten hoogste kan men aannemen
dat
deze naam invloed op het woord heeft uitgeoefend, maar het is weinig
waarschijnlijk, dat voor dit scheepvaartwoord zulk een naam zou zijn
gekozen. Bovendien komt het reeds in 1581 in Emden als d?kdalben voor.
Misschien een re?nterpretatie van een ouder woord'.

regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Marco hett ziteert/quoted:

> 'dukdalf: een nl-fries woord, dat men wel in verband wil brengen met duc
> d'Alve, dus de naam van de hertog van Alva. Ten hoogste kan men aannemen
dat
> deze naam invloed op het woord heeft uitgeoefend, maar het is weinig
> waarschijnlijk, dat voor dit scheepvaartwoord zulk een naam zou zijn
> gekozen. Bovendien komt het reeds in 1581 in Emden als d?kdalben voor.
> Misschien een re?nterpretatie van een ouder woord'.

Dat is akraat dey braden, den ik by dat verklaren vun wegen "Hertog vun
Alba" raken har.

That's precisely the rat I've been smelling ever since I heard of this
"Duke of Alba" thing.

Gr?yten/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 00:28:59 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:28:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (03) [E]
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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language planning" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

At 08:42 27/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Well, I wonder if we're not already down-playing the
>achievements made so far by Scots. We have the
>'Grammar Broonie', 'Doadie's Bodie' and a whole Scots
>course (written by Sheila Douglas) which would be
>ideal for schools, as well as 'the Kist' of course.

I wasn't seeking to downplay these achievements and, if it seemed
as if I was, then I'm glad that there's been the chance to clarify
matters.

>The real problem is not that the products don't exist,
>but that they are not marketed properly (no criticism
>meant here - marketing takes initial capital as well).

Yes, agreed.

>The issue is that there is little benefit in having
>all these things available, if there is not some
>agreement on a 'General Scots'. As you suggest, this
>would be nothing like as rigid a standard as 'BBC
>English' or the French of the Academie Francaise,
>merely a set of agreed orthographic guidelines which
>could be reviewed after 20 years.

Personally, I'd be all for this, but it's surprising how much
opposition even this suggestion attracts. Some of it comes from creative
writers who think (maybe "imagine" would be a better word) that their
work will be judged negatively if it doesn't conform to the guidelines.
I don't think that's especially likely myself, but if it does then
(as far as I'm concerned) that's just hard luck, as there are more
important issues at stake.

On the other hand, there is also opposition from other quarters, and
there's a good example from the academic, C. I. Macafee, in her
article "Leave the Leid Alane" is the most recent edition of "Lallans"
magazine.

>Of course, agreement on these issues is rare - usually
>it simply takes one major work (such as a Bible
>Translation - although even that wasn't enough in our
>case!) whose spellings become widely adopted.

I can think of a number of reasons why Lorimer's orthography hasn't
passed into general acceptance, some of them circumstancial and some
of them practical. First, Lorimer's translation of the New Testament
doesn't see a great deal of use in churches, even in the most densely
Scots-speaking areas, possibly because it is just that - the New
Testament, rather than the entire Bible. Also, the churches simply
don't have the influence that they used to, in an age when church-
going is the exception rather than the norm. Finally there is the
practical matter, that Lorimer's orthography uses diacritic marks,
which very few keyboards in Scotland have.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 00:30:31 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:30:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (04) [E]
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language contacts"

> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
>
> At 17:00 25/02/01 -0800, Sandy Fleming wrote:
>
> >Anyway, this is why language isn't transmitted through a passive
> >medium like TV. If it were, then surely British women of all ages
> >would be speaking a mixture of Cockney, Manky and Scouse by now?
> >Linguistic maps show language change occurring along trunk roads
> >and railways, hence cities taking up on the permanent changes
> >more quickly than country areas.
>
> It would be good if Sandy was right about this, but I have my doubts,
> and I'm not the only one. If Sandy is right, then minority language
> campaigners in many places are labouring under a massive
> misunderstanding. Some people have fought long and hard to get
> a decent TV service, in some cases (such as with Welsh, for
> example) threatening to starve themselves to death unless their
> demands were met. If it's true that language isn't transmitted (I
> do like the pun) through TV, then any such sacrifice would have been
> for nothing.

Not at all. Bear in mind that what I said above was in
response to the idea that centralised TV was changing
the speech of people in other areas. This is what I'm
saying isn't true.

On the other hand, as I've said before when discussing
Welsh TV, television in the local language does cause
people to assign higher status to their own language
and does give them an opportunity to improve it if they
so wish. It's still all to do with what I was saying -
people only change their way of speaking if they have
motivation.

> I've been waiting for any British women here to comment on the
> implication that they only watch those programmes where "Cockney,
> Manky and Scouse" are used (for anyone who doesn't know, the
> programmes concerned are soap operas) but perhaps there aren't any

I never said that anybody watched only these programmes.
But it's easily enough observed that even the most avid
fans of Coronation Street &c don't, in the long term, pick
up anything in their own speech that would suggest that
they did watch those programmes.

> among our readers. That aside, I think it's reasonable to say that the
> dominant form of language on TV is what is often called "BBC
> English", and I also don't think anyone can reasonably doubt that
> this is the direction towards which language in the UK has been moving
> at least since TV started in the middle of the last century.

I do doubt it, if you mean to say that this language is
picked up from television. My father watches the news and
many other topical programmes every day, for example, and
still has considerable difficulty talking anything other
than his native Scots. In fact the dominance of standard
English arises from its use in the education system and
from migration.

For example, the death of Scots in Glasgow in the early
20th century was a result of an immigrant English and
Irish workforce, not television. Glasgow was heavily
anglicised long before the widespread availability of
TV in Scotland.

Again, Scots speakers who wilfully use English in the
midst of other Scots speakers are normally conscious of
their professional standing, eg nurses, teachers,
managers &c and the fact that this is how they're
expected to speak in work. It's certainly not from a
desire to sound like a BBC newsreader!

> From: Pat Reynolds [pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2001 (02) [E]
>
> Possibly not counting as a 'significant' change, a study in Milton
> Keynes (Bucks) about ten years ago (I think) found that young people
> were speaking what you'ld expect - except they'd got a few Australian
> vowel sounds, picked up from soaps.

I've heard of this particular study, but as I said, this
does happen with young people. I don't think this study
tells us anything useful about language change because it
doesn't establish whether this sort of change is lasting
or, like dudespeak in England, just a fad.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 16:06:08 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:06:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.080608.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 28.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: rudi [rudi at its.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 13.FEB.2001 (05)

Hallo Ron
I have been following the several discussions going on LL-L - most
interesting.
It's time I stopped lurking and also made a contribution.

Language survival has always been an interesting topic to me - both at the
language level and at a personal level. Having been born in Holland and
emigrating
to South Africa (in 1948), I grew up speaking Dutch and Afrikaans. English was
a
later addition. Where does language survival come in all of this? I spoke (and
still speak) Dutch to my children, siblings and my Dad. My children thus grew
up
in a bilingual home -Afrikaans and Dutch. When pressed, (like when they speak
to
their grandfather) they speak a perfectly acceptable Dutch, but not as fluent
as
they would like. They only speak Afrikaans to each other and Dutch in our
family
will die with them. Is this a case of non survival? Certainly at the
individual
level.

Contrast this with German speaking South Africans who have maintained their
language for up to four generations after immigrating to SA. This, I believe,
is
largely due to their very strong support for the Deutsche Schule. There is one
in
Pretoria, one in Johannesburg and one in Cape Town. Some of your contributors
on
the topic of Scots survival and acceptance, stated that if a language is to
survive, it needs to be spoken at school. I believe that to be true in the
case of
German. One should also not forget the well established and flourishing
Lutheran
Church which conducts its services only in German.

Question: does this phenomenon occur in other countries and other languages?

Another question: What would be the role be that a company like Microsoft
plays in
the arena of language standardisation? As their spelling checkers in a variety
of
languages are ubiquitous, would they not have a disproportionate influence on
language standardisation? Could they (MS) even go so far as to 'dictate'
standards?

Even though I am not a linguist, now that the ice is broken, I will attempt to
participate in your very interesting discussions.

Please keep it up!

Kind regards
Rudi Vari

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Rudi,

Thanks for daring to leave the relative safety of "lurkerhood" ("lurkerdom"?),
and welcome among the contributors.

You seem to be bringing two threads back together again: "Language survival"
and "Language planning."  That's all right, though, because the two are
related.

I think the case can be made that hitherto non-standardized languages,
certainly minority languages, have less of a chance of survival.
Unfortunately, the usual pattern is that there is little more than squabbling
about whether or not a language should undergo planning, and if so then how
and who gets to contribute input, etc., etc.  And by the time all the
squabbling dies down there isn't much of a language left to plan for, because
there has been much squabbling and little or no planning.  In the case of
Scots, there may still be plenty of time to continue the squabbling, because
Scots is still widely spoken and relatively strong.  In the case of Low Saxon
(Low German), time is truly awasting.  There are numerous estimates of speaker
numbers being thrown around, ranging from a handful to 10 million, but for all
intents and purposes, the language is moribund, and only its integration into
formal education can save it, which requires the creation of standards, which
requires some planning ...  But I am afraid people are not going to get their
act together, judging by the way things have been going.

The case of Dutch vs Afrikaans in your family is very interesting to me.  I
wonder if Dutch as a minority language overshadowed by Afrikaans may have
certain disadvantages that contribute to its demise as a family language.  The
two languages are extremely closely related and to a high degree mutually
intelligible.  As pretty much every LL-L subscriber knows, Afrikaans has
stripped itself of most morphological complications; i.e., it has rid itself
of suffixes, gender differences in articles, etc., by way of what may be
considered regularization and simplification.  I can imagine that Dutch seems
like a complicated version of Afrikaans to Afrikaans speakers, and this, I
imagine is an impediment to Afrikaans speakers learning and retaining Dutch.

In my and other people's experience, it is sometimes easier to learn a
language that is or seems unrelated to your own, because you have to learn it
"from the ground up," so to speak.  The more closely a language is related to
and mutually intelligible with your own or a previously studied one, the
harder it is to motivate yourself to learn its rules properly; i.e., you tend
to learn it in a "sloppy" way.  This is a problem I have always had with
learning Dutch and Afrikaans, because my Low Saxon (Low German) and German
background allowed me to understand a lot of them even before I ever made an
effort to improve my passive knowledge of them.  This is also a problem I had
learning additional Turkic languages after having learned Turkish, Uyghur and
Kazakh, which represent the main Turkic groups and allow you to understand
most other Turkic languages without really studying them.  So I wonder if your
children (secretly) perceive Dutch as being "just a bother."  Why speak
complicated when you don't have to and when most people you know don't?

Yes, I agree that formal education in a minority language, like German in
South Africa, probably increases its survival chances.  However, there are
considerable differences between German and Afrikaans, even though they are
related.  Would Dutch have the same survival chances as a minority language
under Afrikaans if there were Dutch schools?  I am inclined to assume that it
would still have more of a struggle.

How about taking a survey among your children about their perceptions and
motivation (or lack of motivation) in this regard (if you can get them to
speak frankly)?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 16:08:03 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:08:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (02) [LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.080803.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 28.FEB.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 27.FEB.2001 (02) [D/E/LS]

Concerning "Duckdalven"

Dat giff een Leed vun Klaas Groth oever "Old Buesum",
in duet Leed giff dat een Stroph dee heet "denn duk de
Toorn herut ut Sand as waer't een Finger vun een
Hand", hier beduet dat meist meer "kiek herut", also
"sticks out", dat pass to den ersten Deel vun
Duckdalven, awer wat "dalven" beduet, dat weet ik ni.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 20:11:18 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:11:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "All is well" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.121118.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: All is well ... so far

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]

Hallo!
Wi hebbt hier in Seattle j?st 'n gr?tter Eerdbeven hatt (6,4 Richter), as Ji
dat sachs al h??rt hebbt.  Ik b?n hier up de Arbaid up'n 5. B??n west, un dat
was bannig gresig.  Ja, mien Hannen s?nd noch tatterig ...  Ji sch??lt weten,
dat bi mi Allens in de Reeg' is.
Beste Gr?ten,
Reinhard/Ron

Hi!
As you may have heard already, we just had a fairly strong earthquake (6.5 on
the Richter Scale) here in Seattle.  I was here at work on the 5th floor, and
it was quite scary.  Yes, my hands are still shaking ... This is to let you
know that I am all right.
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 20:59:08 2001
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:59:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L: "All is well" LOWLANDS-L, 28.FEB.2001 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.125908.0800.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: All is well ... so far

[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]

Leve L??d',
Ik dank f?r de privaten Emails, ook f?r d? vun us Liddmaten in us Rebeed
(Staat Washington un Provinz Brietsch Kolumbien), d? alltohoop so as ik
verfraren s?nd.  Nu is k?nnig maakt worren, dat dat 'n Eerdbeven vun 7,0 up de
Richter-Skala west is.  Dat is deep in de Eer west.  Anners w??r 't so west as
in Kobe, Japan ...
Beste Gr?ten,
Reinhard/Ron

Folks,
Thanks for the private messages, also for those from our subscribers in this
general area (State of Washington and the Province of British Columbia), all
of whom seem to have gotten as scared as I did.  They just reported that the
quake has been upgraded to 7.0 on the Richter Scale.  It was quite deep.
Otherwise it would have been like the one in Kobe, Japan ...
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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