LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (03)

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Roger Thijs wrote:

> I have problems with these statistics, since I never can find
> any of these 40.000 speakers, even when hanging around several

> hours in the center of Belle-Bailleul on a market day, even
> [...] My convinction is that nationalist, or better
> regionalistic, Flemish people from the
> area blow up these statistics for underlining their
> "identity", while the very same people are not able to speak
> either Dutch or the  "former"
> local Flemish dialect. I'm sorry to say this.

Roger's suspicion is entirely possible, but on the other hand,
speaker of minority languages are frequently very reluctant to
speak their variety publicly, and may even deny they speak it.
Many of my linguist colleagues trying to investigate these
stigmatized varieties have run into social brick walls this way.
 They often have to get a speaker to introduce them gradually
into the right social context.  Some start off speaking the high
language, to show that no condescension is intended, then
casually talk to the family dog in dialect, as a way to gently
slide into dialect.

Does anyone on our list have first-hand experience with Flemish
in France?

Stefan

-----

From: Ian James Parsley [parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Gabriele,

> I wholeheartedly agree with Ian on most points, although I don't see
why
> being trilingual would be any problem for children. My own children
grew up
> that way, as they had a German mother and a Dutch father and lived
in the
> USA for eight years. There are plenty of Kurdish immigrant children
in
> Germany, for example, who speak both Kurdish and Turkish and then
learn
> German, too. These are both examples, however, for children who are
> bilungual already and learn their third language at the age of five
or so,
> so maybe that's different.

Yes, that is different. David Crystal's 'Cambridge Encyclopedia of
Language' (Cambridge University Press 1987) and others books provide
examples of how children (i.e. of pre-school age) have no difficulty
at all being brought up bilingual. They are fully aware that the
languages are distinct - usually if one parent speaks one and the
other speaks the other the child will select the correct one (or the
incorrect one, depending!). When shown pictures and ask to name the
object, the child will select the shorter one (my own test of a
Spanish/English speaking child).

However, should you introduce a third language, or should 'the wrong
parent speak the wrong language', this has been shown to lead to
confusion.

I should add that this is my own experience even as an adult. I am
conscious at any time that I only speak two languages fluently, and
that it takes time to 'replace' one with another. So when I lived in
Germany my two were English and German, when I lived in Spain I
'replaced' German with Spanish, so that when I met some Germans in
Madrid I had difficulty reverting to German immediately. Of particular
interest, I found, was that I selected the Spanish for certain key
words - 'Ja, ich spreche tambien Deutsch'. I also met a Spaniard
resident in Germany who had lived in America for six years and spoke
perfect English apart from saying 'si' for 'yes' at all times!

If we apply this to your children, you will most likely find that one
of the three languages has become notably weaker - and it probably
isn't/wasn't English (they were using that all day at school). You
will often find that Kurdish immigrants who also speak Turkish have
very poor German unless they 'give up' one of the other two. It's
still there passively, but it takes time and often a conscious effort
to 'revert' to it.

It's an interesting issue, because it may actually help answer the
'language vs. dialect' debate. At what stage does bidialectal become
bilingual? If a child has Standard English, Irish and Scots would that
be confusing? What about Standard English, Irish and Geordie? Standard
English, Irish and Cockney? Standard English, Irish and Scottish
Gaelic?

I don't know of much research that has been done on this.

> Perhaps we should start a world-wide movement promoting ethnic
languages as
> "cool". Movies, rap songs, video games featuring Sollinger Platt -
hey,
> maybe there's even money in it!

Well, there is 'Dat wichtigste is, dat ihr Fussball spielt'!! (surely
that should be 'futball'...)

Seriously, Welsh and Irish have moved this way. The Welsh Language
movement demanded a number of posts dependent on Welsh to get people
learning it for a reason. Possibly better still (although time will
tell), the All-Ireland body for promoting Irish, Foras na Gaeilge
(Merrion Square, Dublin 2, eolas at bnag.ie) has launched an advertising
offensive where Irish is used in modern contexts. You're right - fire
out these video games with the titles and credits in lesser-used
languages etc, it can't do any harm.

You do, however, have to be a bit careful where no agreed written
standard exists - too much writing can actually lead to alienation by
those who don't accept the writing system. In which case, like you
say, do raps, dub plays etc.

Best regards,
Ian.
------------------
Ian James Parsley

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