LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 15.JAN.2001 (02) [E]

Mon Jan 15 17:31:37 UTC 2001

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 15.JAN.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language varieties" (was "Morphology")

Keith Kennetz [k_kennetz at hotmail.com] asked how Hanover came to
have the reputation for the 'purest High German'.

The explanation, as near as I have been able to determine, is
the one you cited about Hanover adopting High German: learning
Hochdeutsch as a foreign language, they learned it by the book.
High German existed as an abstraction at the time: everyone
spoke some variety of dialect, and even in writing, there were
some 8 competing regional written German varities in Luther's
time.  Hannoverians apparently spoke their High German in strict
adherence to the increasingly standardized written norm, which
was the definition of 'pure High German'.
Since _spitze Steine_ etc. was not spelled with <sch>, the
Hannoverians pronounced it "as written", with [sp  st]; I am
told that they are increasingly using the standard [Sp St] these
days.
As far as perfect High German goes--  not even the best-trained
radio announcers, for all their training, can completely
suppress their regionalisms, as various of my linguist
colleagues have noted with glee.

You may have heard the musical My Fair Lady, where a Cockney
girl learns Proper English, and a linguist swears she can't be
English at all-- her English is too perfect to be a native
speaker!.

There seems to be a Lowland parallel: when (much of)
Danish-speaking Schleswig and Frisian-speaking Ostfriesland
switched to Platt in early modern times, they didn't adopt the
verb plural ending -t (e.g. wi singt "we sing") of the
neighboring Platt-speaking regions, but instead used the -n (wi
singen) that the written language called for.

Keith wrote:

> I did find, however, a source (Leben und Macht der
> Mundart in Niedersachsen, Oldenburg 1943) that mentions the
> population of Hanover area as being one of the first regions
> of substantial size that in the 19th century made a wholesale
> transition from the original Low Saxon
> dialect to a spoken language resembling High German. The
> population was actually taught High German as a second
> language in schools with result being a German (at least in
> comparison to southern German dialects)that had
> very close resemblance to the developed written standard or
> Schriftsprache.

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

----------

From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" (was "Morphology") LOWLANDS-L,
14.JAN.2001 (02) [E]

I would agree to call the "Hanover High German
Standard" a popular myth created by the desire of
Northern Germans to appear "educated" by means of
discriminating Low Saxon. An English friend of mine
had a placement in Hanover for a year and I remember
his landlady, being a local from Hanover, still using
a number of Low Saxon expressions, as e.g. "luetje"
instead of "klein", generally the working class still
uses a number of Low Saxon expressions, there is a
dictionary about Hanover-expressions which includes
all Low saxon expressions, enough to rebuild the
origionally Hanover Low Saxon dialect. To me the local
people from Hanover have a distinctive accent in their
High German, sounding more Westphalian than e.g
Hamburg-like, considering the origionally Hanover Low
Saxon as an East-Phalian dialect might explain this. I
always wondered whether there are still people around
who can speak the old Hanover Low Saxon, I wouldn't be
surprised if in some of the suburbs some people still
might be able to speak it, and if some do it probably
would be worth while to record it before it becomes
extinct.

----------

From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" (was "Morphology") LOWLANDS-L,
14.JAN.2001 (02) [E]

Good day!

Keith Kennetz wrote:
>The 'Hanover Standard Language' Syndrome is a mystery for which I have
been
>unable to uncover a plausible answer ... your comments/thoughts would be
>much appreciated.

Some years ago I tried the same like Keith, trying to find an explanation
for
the 'Hannover Standard Language'
story -  like Keith without really success.
However, I got the impression that the Low Saxon background of this region
might have played a role for this 'Syndrome'.
In a place where once the normal parole was Low Saxon and High German only
a
(well-known) foreign language, one might have had the desire to show that
they do speak proper German, and like often with (sort of) proselytes, they

try to show that they are part of the new group by trying to speak an even
'better' German than others.
Or, in order to point to the same in a different way: if one learns a
foreign
language, one normally tries to learn as far possible a standard version
and
not a special dialect.
This all cannot form a full explanation, but, as said, this aspect might
have
played a role.

Maybe it is also worthwhile to mention, that (different to many other
popular
perceptions about the German language, which are common in the whole German

speaking area) this 'Hannover Standard Language Syndrome' is restricted to
Germany. It is not shared and mostly not even known in the other German
speaking countries.

regards
Georg Deutsch

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Georg wrote:

> Maybe it is also worthwhile to mention, that (different to many other
popular
> perceptions about the German language, which are common in the whole
German
> speaking area) this 'Hannover Standard Language Syndrome' is restricted
to
> Germany. It is not shared and mostly not even known in the other German
> speaking countries.

And it barely survives in Germany at that.  It seems to be one of those
popular myth that once upon a time (centuries ago) may have had a vaguely
true ring to it and that has been perpetuated as a folk myth that sounds
terribly "learned."  I remember older people telling it to me when I was a
child.  Since then no one has dared to try to sell it to me -- either that
or the myth is well and truly disappearing -- and good riddance to it.

At the same time -- in the dark ages when I was a child -- people also
thought it sounded terribly learned to say that German is the most
difficult language to learn.  I don't know where this one comes from, but
hopefully it, too, is on its way out.  Might it have originated in the
north where Low Saxon (Low German) speakers had to struggle with German?
The neighboring languages (Danish and Dutch) probably seemed more familiar
in many ways, and they didn't "have so many cases" as German has.
Especially in the rural areas, children, like our Ms. Kramer-Freudenthal,
used to grow up with Low Saxon only and then suddenly had to use "real
German" only the first day they were sent to school.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
    to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
    <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
    type of format, in your submissions
  =====================================================================