LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 22.JAN.2001 (05) [E]

Tue Jan 23 07:26:16 UTC 2001

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JAN.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen [baxichedda at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

Hello -

R.F. Hahn wrote:

> (1) English "pea-jacket"
> According to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_, this
> word, denoting a
> sailor's short double-breasted overcoat of coarse
> woolen cloth, is believed
> to be a loan from (Modern?) Dutch, namely derived
> from _pijjekker_.  The
> _COD_ mentions Dutch _pij_ as meaning _coat of
> coarse cloth_.  My Dutch
> dictionaries give the meaning of _pij_ as 'cowl' and
> that of Afrikaans _py_
> as 'cowl' or 'gown'.  In Modern Low Saxon (Low
> German) we have _Piejack_
> ['p`i:jak].  It denotes a type of shirt made from
> thick, coarse linen,
> typically striped blue and white/natural.  It tends
> to have buttoning from
> the neckline no farther down than to the middle of
> the chest, and the upper
> and lower parts tend to have contrasting patterns:
> the stripes running
> horizontally in one and vertically in the other.  (I
> have seen traditional
> Dutch and Frisian garments that look similar.)  The
> _Piejack_ used to be
> the traditional work shirt of North German men,
> especially of fishermen and
> sailors.
(...)
>
> (2) English "pea(-cock, -hen, -fowl)"
> "Pea-" in this word group is assumed to come from
> Latin _pâvô_ > Old
> English _pêa_ > Middle English _pe(-cock)_; cf.
> Scots _pey(-cock).  Old
> Icelandic _pâi_ is assumed to be an Old English loan
> (_Herkunftsduden_),
> but I have a problem believing _pêa_ > _pâi_.  (I
> assume that Modern
> Icelandic _páfugl_ comes from Danish _påfugl_ "_på_
> bird".)  German _Pfau_
> comes from Middle High German _pfâ(we)_ and Old High
> German _pfâwo_ (also
> varieties, e.g.,_Pau_, _Paw(e)_ in some transitional
> dialects, Yiddish
> _pave_).  Slavic has similar forms, e.g., ,
> Polish/Sorbian _paw_, Russian
> _pavlín_.  In Romance, e.g., French _paon_, Spanish
> _pavón_.  In Europe,
> the bird tends to be thought of as "Oriental,"
> traditionally associated
> with Byzantium and Persia, and its origin appears to
> be South Asian,
> possibly Indian..  The _Duden_ people assume that
> the ultimate source of
> the European derivations is Greek _taô's_.  Greek
> /t-/ > Latin /p-/?!
> (Farsi has _tâ'ûs_, similar words in other Iranic
> varieties, also in Turkic
> varieties, e.g., Turkish _tavus kushu_ ("_tavus_
> bird"), Tatar/Kazakh
> _tavys_, Uzbek/Uyghur _tavus_ ~ _tos_, Kyrgyz _tôs_.
>  And in Mongolic we
> have forms like _togys_, _togos_ and _togs_,
> probably Turkic loans.)  I am
> intrigued by the Low Saxon (Low German) form
> _Pageluun_ [pQ:ge'lu:n].  Why
> is there a /-g-/ instead of an expected /-v-/?  I am
> familiar with v <> g
> shifts in Altaic (especially in Turkic and
> Mongolic), not in Germanic.

These are just some late night thoughts... I don't
know if they could help any

(1) I know the word _pjækkert_ for a short sweater or
jacket that you put on to keep warm, used in older
Danish... Could there be a relation there?

(2) The Islandic _páfugl_ should be the word that the
modern Danish _påfugl_ has derived from. But in older
Danish written _poofwl_ . My ethymological dictionary
for Danish (which is by no means perfect), suggests
after the account for the Latin and/or Greek origin,
that the name of the peacock comes from the sound it
makes. There is a Danish (dialectal) verb listed
_pjæve_ "to cry or lament a little", mostly Jutlandic,
which should be related to  _pave_ "to cry out like a
peacock" - which should be borrowed from Low Saxon
_pauen_
The Low saxon dictionary (Herrmann-Winter) explains
for _paugen_ the same as for _pjæve_ : "a low-voice
lament or cry". Could the _Pageluun_ be related to
that word?
Could it be that this bird was once "the bird that
says tao"? and then the verbs for "lamenting/crying a
little" came from that? Or maybe that's too far
fetched...But what does a peacock "say"? The pheasants
of the same bird family do sound as if they are
lamenting.
The modern Sardinian dictionary states that _pabàdu_
means "a loud cry or lament", the bird itself is
_pabòni_ To me this sounds too similar to be just a
coincidence...?

Greetings, Lone Olesen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for sharing your very interesting late night thoughts (above),
Lone.  Here is my late night response.

> (1) I know the word _pjækkert_ for a short sweater or
> jacket that you put on to keep warm, used in older
> Danish... Could there be a relation there?

I would not call it impossible.  The interesting thing is that it resembles
Dutch _pijjekker_ more than Low Saxon (Low German) _Piejack_.

> The modern Sardinian dictionary states that _pabàdu_
> means "a loud cry or lament", the bird itself is
> _pabòni_

Also of interest is that Greek has, besides the said _taô's_, _pagóni_.  I
thought it might be one of the many Italian loans, but Italian has
_pavone_.  So here's this darn g~v alternation again.

> The Low saxon dictionary (Herrmann-Winter) explains
> for _paugen_ the same as for _pjæve_ : "a low-voice
> lament or cry". Could the _Pageluun_ be related to
> that word?

I don't think that's impossible either.

> Could it be that this bird was once "the bird that
> says tao"? and then the verbs for "lamenting/crying a
> little" came from that? Or maybe that's too far
> fetched...But what does a peacock "say"? The pheasants
> of the same bird family do sound as if they are
> lamenting.

Well, some people might perceive it as lamenting.  I think the birds may be
beautiful but their cries are disturbing and obnoxious, sounding like a
cross between a baby suffering from gas and a cat in heat, just a lot
louder.  It's all right for a little while, but try to stay for a few days
in a place surrounded by a park full of peafowl, as I did in a place in
Taiwan.  At one point I was ready to go and strangle each one of those
critters. (And a peacock is called _kong[3]que_ "hole bird" in Mandarin,
which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense and leads me to believe that this
_kong[3]_ goes back to a non-Chinese word.)

But what about Russian _...lín_ and Low Saxon _...luun_ in the words for
'peacock', folks?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
    to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
    <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
    type of format, in your submissions
  =====================================================================