LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 25.JAN.2001 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Grammar

Regarding Ron's "salt water," "salt cod.", Stefan  wrote:

>I'd have to think that the grammarian who called "salt" here an
adjective hadn't thought the matter through.  It's acting
strictly like a compound noun.  <

But he then wrote:

>But my Old English dictionary does show _sealt, salt_ as an
adjective: "oth thone sealtan mere" 'up to the salt sea'.
Alongside it was _sealten_, which potentially could lose the
-en during Middle English (compare participles like
drunk/drunken), giving two established adjectives. <

I'm not sure, therefore, whether he's contradicting himself or conceding an
uncertainty.

In "wood floor",  "wood" is an adjective which can be replaced with no
semantic change by "wooden".
In "salt cod", "salt" can be replaced by the adjective "salted". Doesn't
that suggest that it, too, is an adjective?

Is there a real distinction in English between a "compound noun" and a
noun+noun phrase in which the first noun has an adjectival function? We do
have distinctions such as "glasshouse" and "glass house" but there does not
seem to be any precise rule which says when words are joined, linked by a
hyphen or simple written proximately. Thus (in Chambers Dictionary)
"sunlamp", "sun-god", "sun dress" and hundreds more.

Stefan also wrote:

>But since the participle and the "supplied with" adjective look
the same, you can derive a verb from a word in -ed any time.  .<

"Any time"? Talented and cultured people seem to be immune to (or from) this
treatment.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Grammar

John wrote above:

> In "wood floor",  "wood" is an adjective which can be replaced with no
> semantic change by "wooden".
> In "salt cod", "salt" can be replaced by the adjective "salted". Doesn't
> that suggest that it, too, is an adjective?

Nope.  Not to me it don't.  Two nouns combined, where the first noun modifies
the second, constitute a compound noun.  The fact that you can substitute the
first, modifying noun with a similarly modifying adjective does not, at least
as far as I know, change the fact that the noun+noun construction is a
compound.  In other Germanic languages these two nouns would be written as one
word or would be hyphenated.  The fact that this is rarely done in English
does not change the fact that this sort of construction is a compound.

Let's look at the phonological side of it.  In any Germanic language,
including English, by and large, disyllabic native (incl. nativized)
adjectives and nouns receive stress on the first syllable (except on certain
prefixes, e.g., _ge-_, and also certain suffixes take stress, e.g., Dutch
_-ij_ or German _-ei_); e.g., wáter, chímney, súgar, jéwelry, vínegar, bétter,
sálty, vínegary, _Stráße_.  In compound nouns the first noun component
receives the overall main stress, and in the second component secondary stress
falls onto the syllable that would have primary stress if the component were a
separate word; e.g., sáltwàter, cúpbòard, sált pìckles, chímneyswèep, évening
gòwn, dráwing ròom, néwspàper, néws repòrt, óven tèmperature,
_Schórnsteinfèger_, _dóelstèlling_.  In adjective + noun phrases, primary
stress falls onto the stressable syllable of the noun; e.g., rèd cárpet, sàlty
wáter, wòrdy éssay, tràshy néwspàper, _sìlberne Hóchzeit_, _gròte kínderen_.
The adjective receives primary stress only if it is emphasized/contrasted;
e.g., "These aren't sálty pìckles but sóur ones."  Likewise, in compound nouns
the second component may receive primary stress if it is stressed; e.g., "I'm
not talking about the òven témperature but about the òven síze."

In a nutshell then, default stress assignment in adjective + noun construction
is different from default stress assignment in noun + noun constructions in
which the first noun modifies the second in what is considered a noun
compound.  Thus, ...

sàlty/sàlted wáter vs sáltwàter
sùgary cóokies vs súgar còokies
wòoden flóor vs wóod flòor
wòoded lánds vs wóodlànds
sìlken dréss vs sílk drèss

Cf. Low Saxon (Low German):
sùlt(en) wáter vs sáltwàter (sàlty wáter vs sáltwàter)
sìeden Kléed vs Síedenklèed (sìlken dréss vs sílk drèss)
plàtt(et) Lánd vs Pláttlànd (flàt lánd vs flátlànd)

Cf. German:
sàlziges Wásser vs Sálzwàsser (sàlty wáter vs sáltwàter)
sèidenes Kléid vs Séidenklèid (sìlken dréss vs sílk drèss)
sàndiger Stránd vs Sándstrànd (sàndy béach vs sánd bèach)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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