LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 11.JUL.2001 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUL.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Henno Brandsma" <henno_brandsma at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
>
>Talking about contact varieties, what about "West Frisian" (_Westfries_),
>which is not Frisian either but is also Dutch with Frisian substrates
>(which
>is why Netherlanders and other people familiar with the situation cannot
>accept the name "West Frisian" in reference to what they know as
>"Westerlauwer
>Frisian").  How does this "West Frisian" differ from _Stedsk_?

Hard to summarise, really. (I have experience with _Stedsk_, _Westfries_
(having lived in the area) and _Westerlauwer_ Frisian, so it's a matter
close to my heart..)
For one, the phonology of WF (_Westfries_, for this posting) is less
Frisian, in my impression: no plosive g- but fricative, as in Dutch (but
then again, g- could be recent as well in _Frysk_, seeing that the island
dialects also have a fricative), and less nasalisation. Also less long
vowels, and old [i:] was diphthongised to [ai] or more common [oi]
(preserved in Stedsk, mostly shortened to [i]), and old [u:] words like
[hu:s] have the Dutch diphthong _ui_ (very similar to it, anyway, there are
subtle differences in accent). Only the Enkhuizen dialect of WF preserves
[i] and [y] (as do the closely related dialects of Wieringen and Texel also
formerly Frisian).
The accent is also different, more sing-song.
But Stedsk and WF have preserved sk- in common, as a tendency for falling
diphthongs (more so on Wieringen). Syntax is almost identical for both
(having two infinitive forms eg. as Frysk has), with almost identical word
orders (there are differences in some clusters, but that would lead to far
astray..). The substrate Frisian words are different, due to longer contact
of Stedsk to Frysk, I think. But they share words like _stroffele_ (Frysk
_stroffelje_), =to trip/to lose one's footing.
In my WF dictionary I can find at least 2 to 3 Frisian substrate words per
page, and I think the percentage may be even higher than that for Stedsk.
Other common differences both with Dutch and Frysk: _feugel_ and _seumer_
(Dutch _vogel_, _zomer_, Frysk _fu^gel_ and _simmer_), originated from the
dialects in Holland (= the westernmost part of the Netherlands), due to a
tendency to palatalise vowels.
Another morphological difference: Stedsk has _dou_ for "you", with -st
verbal endings, while WF has _jai_ with plural verbal endings:
dou doest vs jai doene  (Frysk: do dochst).

>Further talking about contact varieties, are there any German varieties
>with
>Frisian substrates, and if not, why not?
>
[]

>Furthermore, are there any Low Saxon varieties with noticeable North
>Frisian
>substrates?

Yes, the dialect of Sleeswyk-Holstein (sorry for the Frisian spelling)
has noticable North-Frisian substrate. Again, accent and words mostly. A
Swede (I forgot his name) has written a thesis about it, quite some time
ago, part of which I read. Some words had undergone typically North Frisian
sound changes before being adopted in the Low Saxon dialect.
As to East Frisian substrate, I believe that is found more on the islands
than on the mainland (dialects like that of Spiekerooge).

>Am I correct in assuming that there are no German varieties with Frisian
>substrates (or only German varieties with Frisian loans via Low Saxon)
>because
>extensive use of ("High") German came relatively late to (previously)
>Frisian-speaking areas, and these areas had long ago adopted Low Saxon for
>official, interethnic and supraregional communication?
>
>Any input would be appreciated.

Yes, Frisians always neighboured Saxons, except in the _Westfries_ area,
where it bordered Franconian. At the time of language shift, Low Saxon was
the dominant language in North Germany and the Eastern Netherlands.
so the pressure was to change to Low Saxon. Of course, in Germany nowadays
people will most often change to German, and sometimes to Low Saxon (I know
of such cases in Saterland)

>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Groetnis,

Henno

-----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 10.JUL.2001 (04) [E]

Speaking for North Friesland I am not aware of any
variety which hybrids German and Frisian, this is only
possible with Frisian and Low Saxon, many Frisian
speakers in North Friesland do speak Low Saxon as
well, since the accents and pronounciation of Frisian,
Low Saxon and Soenderjysk are very similar in Southern
Jutland it is sometimes difficult to distinguish,
nevertheless North Frisian have a distinctive accent
in their Low Saxon. But this does not apply to German,
North Frisians have a "Slesvig"-accent but by the way
they speak German I could not tell from where about in
Southern Jutland they are. I assume that the distance
between German and Frisian is too large, probably
similar as the absence of English-German hybrids in
North America despite the large numbers of German
settlers.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks for your very interesting and informative responses (above), Henno and
Helge.

Helge, you wrote:

> I assume that the distance
> between German and Frisian is too large, probably
> similar as the absence of English-German hybrids in
> North America despite the large numbers of German
> settlers.

Well, you may be right if you use the word "hybrid," which I find too strong a
word in virtually any case (because languages do not mix with equal
participation, but one of them predominates, i.e., is basic).  What we are
talking about is some features of language A being found in language B that
replaced it.  In North American areas with German-based population
concentration, such as parts of Wisconsin, you do find English dialects whose
phonology may be argued to be German-influenced (e.g., long vowels instead of
dipthongs), apart from German-based idiomatic and lexical influences.  (I'm
beginning to suspect the average Milwaukee citizen to have a richer German
sausage-related terminology than the average person in Germany ...)
Similarly, it is not unreasonable to suspect other American English dialects,
such as those of Minnesota, to be Scandinavian-influenced (probably with
German influences as well in the case of Minnesota).  Dialects of the New York
City area have variously strong Italian and German/Yiddish features
("German/Yiddish" because it is not always easy to tell them apart).  However,
I am not sure if the term "substrates" is truly applicable in these cases.

What about the state of South Australia with its large German-derived
population?  Are there any German-influenced English varieties, such as in the
Barossa Valley with its German-founded towns?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================