LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 29.JUL.2001 (01) [D/E]

Sun Jul 29 18:16:49 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUL.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Ron, Beste Laaglanders

Ron asked (Sunday, July 29, 2001):
"I am wondering about the etymology of the Dutch word
_ouderwets_ and the West(erlauwers) Frisian cognate
_âlderwetsk_, both meaning 'oldfashioned'.
Clearly, _ouder..._ and _âlder..._ are derived from
(_old_ >) _oud_ and _âld_ 'old'.  But what about the
rest of these words?  I assume the presence of the
manner suffix (_-sch_ >) _-s_ and _-sk_ (cognates of
English _ish_, Low Saxon _-sch_ and German _-isch_).
This would leave a supposed word _wet_.  Might this be
_wet_ 'law', 'rule', 'statute'?  I guess it would make
sense: "in the manner/way of old rules.""

Etymologically _ouderwets_ (1622) indeed refers to the
law, probably the Old Testament.
Which doesn't mean that the word _nieuwerwets_
(1684)refers to the New Testament :).
(from: Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek).

I hope this little piece of the puzzle can help a bit.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Frank Verhoft

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From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> Other Low Saxon words for 'old-fashioned' are _oldmoodsch_ ['?o%ltmo:tS]
> (cf. German _altmodisch_ < _Mood'_ < _Mode_ < French _mode_ 'fashion',
> 'manner'), _oldbacksch_ ['?o%ltbakS] (assumedly from _backen_ 'to bake'),

> and _oldfranksch_ ['?o%ltfra%NkS] ~ _oldfränksch_ ['?o%ltfrE%NkS].  I
find
> the last of these intriguing, because it literally means "Old
> Frankish," considering that this is a Saxon word, and considering the
> historically uneasy relationship between Franks and Saxons.  Does anyone
know
> the story behind this word?

The Limburgisch words used for 'old-fashioned' are _audmodis_, _auwerwèts_
(probably a loan from Dutch) and _audvraens_. The last one literally means
'old
frankisch', just like the Saxon _oldfränksch_. I don't know the story
behind
this word, but it is kind of strange, actually, to hear it in Limburg,
because
Limburgers are also considered to be Frankisch. So there is no historically

uneasy relationship with Franks, I guess.

By the way, Limburgisch _aud_ is not pronounced the same as Dutch _oud_,
but
more like Frisian _âld_: ôd / âd. Could anyone tell me where to find the
international phonetic alphabet? I still don't know how to write it...

Regards,
Mathieu

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Frank and Mathieu.

Mathieu, you wrote:

> The Limburgisch words used for 'old-fashioned' are _audmodis_,
_auwerwèts_
> (probably a loan from Dutch) and _audvraens_. The last one literally
means 'old
> frankisch', just like the Saxon _oldfränksch_. I don't know the story
behind
> this word, but it is kind of strange, actually, to hear it in Limburg,
because
> Limburgers are also considered to be Frankisch. So there is no
historically
> uneasy relationship with Franks, I guess.

Of course there is always the possibility that Low Saxon borrowed the word
from a Frankish variety, assumedly a Dutch or Limburgish one, considering
that the languages border each other and that there used to be a fair bit
of back-and-forth borrowing going on in earlier times.

I also wonder if the last component in _ollerwel(t)sch_ is related to that
in the Low Saxon (Low German) word _lieksterwelt_ ['li:kst3vE%lt]
'likewise', 'the same (manner/condition)', 'unchanged'; cf. _liek_ [li:k]
'alike', 'identical', 'similar', 'equal', 'straight', _lieken_ ['li:k=N]
'to resemble', 'equal', _liekerveel_ ['li:k3fe:l] '(just) as much', 'of no
importance', 'anyhow', 'nevertheless' (e.g., _Dat is mi liekerveel_ 'I
don't care'; cf. _veel_ [fe:l] 'much', 'many'), Dutch _gelijk_ 'alike',
'similar', 'identical',, Afrikaans _gelyk_ (id.), Dutch _lijken_ 'to
resemble', 'to equal', Afrikaans _lyk_ (id.), (Old English _gelîk_ > Middle
English _lîk(e)_ >) English "like", Scots _lik(e)_ (id.), (Old High German
_gilîkî_ >) German _gleich_ 'alike', 'identical', 'similar', 'equal',
Yiddish _glaykh_ 'equal', (Old Icelandic _glîkr_ >) Icelandic (/liik-/)
_líkur_ 'alike', 'similar', 'equal', Swedish _lik_ (id.), Danish _lig_
(id.), etc., < Germanic *_ga-_ 'with', 'together' + _*_lîka-_ 'body'.

Mathieu, you further wrote:

> Could anyone tell me where to find the
> international phonetic alphabet? I still don't know how to write it...

The SAMPA system of phonetic notation (online conversion of the IPA):
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/samprosa.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Laaglanders

Eerder deze week hoorde ik het woord _mezeke_ (<e>:
ergens tussen een lange /e/ en /i/). I.e. een klein,
oppervlakkig (en totaal onbeduidend) wondje. En het
was alweer een tijdje geleden dat ik dat woord gehoord
had. Gezien het verkleinwoord - ik heb anderzijds het
woord _mees_ in dit verband trouwens nog nooit gehoord
- is het misschien niet toevallig dat een oudere
persoon dit tegen een *peuter* zei.

_mezekes_ zijn zo ernstig dat ze meestal met een
beetje _jezekeszalf_ (=speeksel, tja) kunnen geheeld
worden.

Mijn vragen:
Is het woord _mezeke_ ook gebruikelijk in andere
streken (ik kom uit Boechout, tussen Lier en
Antwerpen, met de nadruk op Lier)?
Kan er iemand mij helpen met de etymology van _mezeke_
helpen?
En is het, laat ons zeggen, gebruik van _jezekeszalf_
ook elders ingeburgerd?

Alvast - zoals steeds - van harte bedankt.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Frank Verhoft

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