LL-L: "Language maintenance" LOWLANDS-L, 07.MAR.2001 (04) [Ap/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07.MAR.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language maintenance" LOWLANDS-L, 06.MAR.2001 (02)  [E]

At 10:17 06/03/01 -0800, Criostoir O Ciardha wrote:

>Thank you for the clarification. I can assure you we
>have very different notions of what constitutes
>swearing.

I'm not so sure that we do, as I'll explain.

>When I referred to swearing forming an
>integral part of certain mother tongues I meant as
>adjectival intensifiers or as lexicon (e.g. "it were
>fucking ace" where "fucking" does not refer to any act
>but rather to an intensification;

As far as I can see, there's not much here that's at odds with the
definition that I gave in my previous posting, defining
"swearing" as the use of words such as "fucking" etc, not in a
literal sense, but figuratively for emotive effect.

>  and "arse" as
>opposed to "anus/rectum"). I certainly do not mean to
>imply that misogyny or sexual degradation is a valid
>integral.

I think that's understood, and I don't remember anyone saying
that this was Criostoir O C's implication, intended or actual.

>However I would take umbrage with Colin's assertion
>that
>
> > swearing is more strongly
> > associated with the male sex
> > than the female, and with youth rather than age.
>
>This is rather a strange assertion. From my own
>experience (as all opinion is subjective), coming from
>working class communities located near Nottingham in
>England in in Camborne in west Cornwall, there is
>certainly no discriminative use of swearing (in the
>sense I describe above rather *than as insult*) - not
>male/female or young/old. It is, conversely, rather
>the case that the elder generation who, on the whole,
>have retained a greater cultural identity, use
>swearing in a far greater extent than their younger
>counterparts.

My own experience is directly at odds with this. Having had contact
with working-class communities in the Aberdeen area and (to a
lesser extent) in Glasgow, my experience leads me to believe that
older female speakers are not only much less likely to use swearing
but also much more likely to state their active aversion to others
using it in their presence.

>Female mother tongue speakers also swear freely, although I concede
>that they do not perhaps swear as much as their male
>counterparts (although they do swear as much whilst in
>predominantly female company).

Given that there appears to be a fundamental difference in
perception here, I'd be very interested to hear what other readers
have to say on this subject.

>I must admit I am unwilling to continue this
>discussion if I am characterised as someone advocating
>misogynistic "sex and toilet" language or "swearing
>for rebellion". I have never advocated such appalling
>anti-female behaviour and deplore any manifestation of
>it.

Here, Criostoir O C is building a "strawman". Blunt language relating
to sex and the toilet is *not* in itself misogynistic or anti-female,
and no-one has suggested that it is.

>Similarly I was unaware that referring to my
>mother tongue made me an immature and naive political
>idiot. Perhaps in this instance I should have kept my
>mouth shut.

This is another strawman, and is not in the "courteous and
friendly manner" required of contributions to this list.

Sincerely,

Colin Wilson.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language maintenance

Críostóir & Colin:

> >Female mother tongue speakers also swear freely, although I concede
> >that they do not perhaps swear as much as their male
> >counterparts (although they do swear as much whilst in
> >predominantly female company).
>
> Given that there appears to be a fundamental difference in
> perception here, I'd be very interested to hear what other readers
> have to say on this subject.

In which culture, which country, which region, which language variety, which
social class, which social context, which generation?  Should we not specify
this before rushing to generalizations?

Personally I have have experienced a whole range of tendencies in this regard,
though on the whole it is my experience that females "swear" less frequently
and less offensively, certainly in the presence of males.  However, I have
come across many an exception (and I do not mean in red-light districts and
the like).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Richard L Turner [fr.andreas at juno.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language maintenance" LOWLANDS-L, 07.MAR.2001 (02) [E]

Hey.

     On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:59:45 -0800 Sandy Fleming
[sandy at scotstext.org]
writ: "I'm not convinced of the value of "rendering sound to letter", but
if there's no precedent it's entirely up to you."

     Hit's been some time sinst A was convinced o the need o rendrin
percise sound tae letter. A still use some variant spellins, but they're
thar tae repersent real differ atween Standart Inglish an Appalachian,
not a re-warkin o phonetics. Gin they's a Scotch variant at covers the
varyin pernunciation A use hit, but they's precedent fer sech in the
beginnins o Appalachian tawk.
     Git in thar, Cristoir! Write ye someaught in yir Nottinham Inglish
fer the rest o us tae read. Gin hit's grammar is differnt fum Standart
Inglish, at's tae hits guid. Gin they's aught in differns fum Standart
Inglish word-lore, more the better.
     Yir wark'll larn ye better'n aught elst ye cuid do. Hit'll larn ye
best o aw tae listen tae the ol folk. They's right smart tae larn thar.

Yorn,
+Fr Andreas Richard Turner.

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