LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 17.MAR.2001 (01) [E]

Sat Mar 17 17:48:11 UTC 2001

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 16.MAR.2001 (01) [E]

At 10:37 16/03/01 -0800, Tom Mc Rae wrote:

>This is a retrograde step as The BBC Scottish Home Service in the 1940's
and
>50's had many programmes in Scots dialect, they taught me a great deal at
>the time. Short stories and plays in Scots were regular features, best I
>remember was a translation of Moliere's 'Tartuffe' titled 'A Richt Holy
>Wullie'. There was even a language learning series 'The Guid Scots Tongue'

>put On-Air along with the usual ones on French etc.
>How did they manage to lose direction?

I'm not sure but my best guess is that fifty or sixty years ago
Scots was still in use, to some degree, among the middle classes
in the major urban centres. Nowadays, of course, it isn't although
there is still a Scots-speaking element in the middle class in
some other areas, e.g here in the north-east.

Anyone who wants to see how low the BBC has fallen, needs only
to look at this URL where the anglified Scots spoken in Glasgow
is parodied as "Nedspeak" ("hooligan-speak").
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/chewinthefat/neducation/index.shtml

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From: Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl
Subject: Language politics

Ron wrote:

"It is relatively easy to maintain that Dutch, Low Saxon, Zeelandic and
Limburgish are one language and that Scots is a part of English, because of
the
close genealogical relationship between them. (...) It gets a little harder

maintaining that "Low German" is a part of German (considering that
German speakers do not understand it unless they are extensively exposed to

it), but it has been done, as we all know."

Of course it's true that there is a close genealogical relationship between

Dutch, Low Saxon, Frisian, Zeelandic and Limburgish, but this doesn't mean
it
MUST be the same language.
If you are speaking of 'understanding', it has to be said that almost
every 'dialect'/regional language cannot be understood by Dutch people.
Even if
dialect-speakers speak in fact Dutch, they are sometimes hardly understood
because of the accent (example: Belgians are *always* subtitled in the
Netherlands, even when they speak Standard Dutch). From my own experience:
at
the University of Nijmegen about 25% of the students is Limburgisch. The
Dutch
speaking students say they have a kind of 'secret language' only they can
understand.

Another thing: Even though a lot of Dutch people consider Frisian to be a
dialect too, the general 'feeling' is that Frisian is not a variety of
Dutch
and that Low Saxon, Zeelandic and Limburgish are (if you ask them WHY, they

don't know). This is actually a bit strange, because research of the
University
of Groningen has shown that the lingual difference between Frisian and
Dutch is
smaller than between West-Flemish (considered a dialect by EVERYONE) and
Limburgisch. (Feature Frequency Method by C.Hoppenbrouwers) I don't know
how
they meassured this, but it shows that (besides Frisian) West-Flemisch and
limburgisch are also very special, and should be treated that way.

About the official status of Limburgisch: This year the Dutch Province of
Limburg has decided to install a 'council' for the Limburgisch. This
coumcil
has to protect language and has to take the important decisions (if any).
The
only problem is, that this council will meet only twice a year, so we don't

expect too much of it. Furthermore, the province has appionted
a 'streektaalfunctionaris'. On my website
<http://members1.chello.nl/~w.vanwoerkom/limburgs.htm> you can read an
article
in which he presents himself (in Limburgisch). Also, I can remember he once

said in an article that he wouldn't rule out bilingual "city-signs"
(plaatsnaambordjes). So maybe we can expect that in the near future.
PS. here are some bilingual Limburgisch city names:
(International) - (Limburgisch)
Maastricht - Mestreech
Roermond - Remunj
Heerlen - Heële
Kerkrade - Kirchrao
Sittard/Geleen - Zitterd/Gelaen
Valkenburg - Valkeberg
Vaals - Vols
Bocholz - Boches
Kinrooi - Kinder
Weert - Wieërt
Eijsden - Eèsjde
Helden - Helje
Susteren - Zöstere

Groeten,
Mathieu (mathieu.vanwoerkom at student.kun.nl)

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