LL-L: "Idiomatica" LOWLANDS-L, 01.MAY.2001 (01) [E]

Tue May 1 15:00:46 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.MAY.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: David Darr <darr at tsunami.ocean.washington.edu>
Subject: LL-L: "Idiomatica" LOWLANDS-L, 30.APR.2001 (03) [E]

> I was wrong in saying she was from Georgia, as I was just told.  Her
father
> was from Georgia, but she was born in Roanoake, Alabama, and spent
much of
> her youth in Birmingham, Alabama.  At least Roanaoke qualifies as
northern
> Alabama, doesn't it?  Does Appalachian reach that far?  If not, it
must
> have had some influence on the speech of that region.  The lady had
> definitely "northernized" her English, but her Southern roots would
become
> quite obvious whenever she got really excited and was talking to
relatives
> or close friends.

I add as an aside, my homeland (Missouri Ozarks), though far from the
Appalachians, is essentially a western outpost (culturally and
linguistically)  of Appalachia. All of the Appalachian and much of the
Scots I read on this list reminds me of the way my grandparents'
generation spoke prior to 1970 or so.

David

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From: "WIEBE,HAUKE (A-Scotland,ex1)" <hauke_wiebe at agilent.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Idiomatica" LOWLANDS-L, 30.APR.2001 (02) [E]

> R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Idiomatica

> I assume this device is restricted to
> American English, more specifically to certain southern dialects of the
> United States, and I would not be surprised if it turned up in Appalachian
> as well.  However, I believe there is always a possibility that it is
> derived from European English or from another language.
> Examples (made up):

> (1) "I had to stop at Danny's to play with his new tow truck."
>   "I'll tow your truck if you don't come home directly again."

> (2) "Can't I have a candy bar, please, please, please?"
>     "I'll candy your bar in a second." or   "I'll bar your candy in a
> second."

> Is this familiar to any of you?  Do you have any background information?
> How widely is this used, geographically, ethnically?

Moin,

Like Ron I cannot think of examples of the top of my head but,
I can remember its use from Native Platt (LowSaxon) speaking relatives
in Dithmarsh, especially small town aunts (in my memory)
where this device also seems to have survived into Missingsch.

Those relatives who learned German in school,
and have used it as their language ever since,
do not tend to use it.
It is not a habit one picks up from teachers, but rather from mothers, I
guess.

I also seem to remember it from my University days in Sheffield in the North
of England.
Where it was in use (mostly jokingly) among speakers of local Yorkshire
dialect
mainly used by porters, cleaners, secretaries etc. to humourously undercut
the posh speaking lecturers and students Higher university admin folks.

Saying all this it is also an idomatic device which is easyly rememebered
easy to use and one can thus easily imagine to have heard it used.
In fact having been reminded of it now, I am already eagerly sitting at my
desk
waitng for an opportunity ro put it into practice.

The fact that it is used in films from time to time (for a long time)
might already have spread it to more articulate or creative users of
language,
thus making it difficult to trace it s origins.

Tschuess
        Hauke

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R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

Thanks to David and Hauke for their input (above).

I have done some more "interviewing" and have found that the children never
really felt threatened when their mother used this device.  They thought it
was more funny than anything else.  They perceived it merely as dismissive in
most cases.  So Steven Kavchok was quite right yesterday when he described it
as "jokingly dismissive."  However, in some cases it would convey warnings to
stop or not to repeat the offending acts.

Yes, I can imagine this device coming in quite handy in mocking members of the
upper classes, as mentioned by Hauke.  Made-up example:

Lady of the house: "And from now on I'll have you do a thorough job polishing
the alabaster figurine."
Maid: "Very well, ma'am." Then mumbling or whispering (to herself or to
another servant), "I'll alabaster *your* figurine ..."

Those of you who have never heard this used need to know that the main
emphasis falls onto "your."  Of course, you can also use a third-person
pronoun (e.g., "I'll alabaster *her* figurine ...").

Yes, it does seem like something just begging to be adopted, doesn't it?
Likewise the Yiddish-derived device Steven mentioned.  It involves repeating
the key word (i.e., the noun that denotes the item to be dismissed) while
replacing the initial consonant with _shm_.  Some time ago I heard it used in
a joke, in connection with the almost customary Yiddish wishes for good health
(e.g., _gezunt zol er zayn!_ 'May he be in good health!'):

"What's the matter with him?"
"Apparently he was diagnosed with cancer."
"Agh, cancer-shmancer! Main thing the boy should be healthy."

Hauke, you mentioned the former device being used in Low Saxon (Low German).
Really?!  How is it used?  Just like in English?

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron

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