LL-L: "Shared features" (was "Language contacts") LOWLANDS-L, 30.MAY.2001 (02) [E]

Wed May 30 20:40:12 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAY.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Shared features" LOWLANDS-L, 28.MAY.2001 (02) [E]

A chairde,

Ron wrote (of Long Eaton English "senn" being
paralleled by Zeeuws "selven"):

> It is also _selven_ ~ _sülven_ ~ _sülben_ ~ _sülm_
> in the Northern Low
> Saxon dialects.  Many of these dialects have a
> tendency toward changing
> preconsonantal /l/ to a vowel or deleting it
> altogether, thus _sülm_ [zYIm]
> or [zY.m].  (This characteristic continues in
> Missingsch, i.e., German
> dialects with Low Saxon substrates; e.g., Hamburg
> Missingsch _Milch_ [meIC]
> 'milk', _selber_ ['zE.Iba] ~ _selbst_ [zE.Ibs]
> 'self'.)

This is intriguing for a number of reasons if we
continue the theme of language contacts/shared
features backward through history. Whilst my
understanding of the historical spread of continental
Lowland languages is at best derisable and at worst
blatant fiction, is it fatuous or absurd to postulate
a link between proto-Low Saxon (I apologise for
lacking the precise term) and proto-Anglo-Frisian? Did
they not share a similar locale?

I suggest - and it is tenuous and poorly conceived -
that proto-Zeeuws, proto-Low Saxon and
proto-Anglo-Frisian variants may share a number of
features inherent from before the departure of the
proto-Anglo-Saxons to what later became England
c.520AD. If that is so, then core vocabulary such as
personal pronouns (if indeed "senn" [self] counts as
such) may spring from a common source rather than be
innovations or in extremis survivals. What other
vocabulary might Low Saxon, Zeeuws and northern
English/Scots variants share?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" (was "Shared features") LOWLANDS-L,
29.MAY.2001 (04) [E]

A chairde,

Stefan wrote:

> [Críostóir] is looking for subsequent interaction >
between
> these languages
> as well.  The development of the "self" word as
> _selm_, _sem_
> etc. is an example of possible interaction coming
> long after the
> Ingveonic languages diverged.

Indeed. This is succinctly and helpfully described. I
think it might be useful to divide our study and
search into two distinct areas: ancient and modern. My
reasoning for this is: a) modern contacts are most
likely to have come about through economic expansion,
particularly in a feudal/mercantile context (I recall
attempting to rationalise the borrowing of Zeeuws
words into Long Eaton English as being through
maritime trade), in the same way English words were,
say, accepted into Irish (e.g., "gúna" (dress) from
English "gown", "garsún" (boy) from Norman French
"garcon", etc.). b) ancient contacts are more
speculative, as we have to resort to reconstructions
and conjecture. The further back we go, the more true
this is.

I will leave it up to other subscribers with greater
knowledge than me on the subject to define the time
periods we are talking about, although in the case of
the modern context I would date it from the rise of
Dutch mercantilism.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Language contacts" LOWLANDS-L, 30.MAY.2001 (01) [E/German]

A chairde,

Ian wrote:

> Cristoir,
>
> Allegedly 'summut' is indeed a contraction of
> 'somewhat' - cf German 'etWAS'.

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated. What is the
earliest distinction of "summut" from "somewhat"? And
how come it occurred in certain continua of English
and not others? Are we dealing with a possible
substrate scenario revealing possible contacts with
continental forms? I realise we may be delving into
the realms of so-called "dialect literature" to find
these forms.

I would also be very interested to discover to what
extent English dialect divisions are shared by
Frisian. I realise I may be veering off on a tangent
somewhat (as I am wont to do), but are there parallel
divisions? To clarify, were there dialect divisions
in, say, proto-Anglo-Frisian that created - or
perpetuated - the divide between any variants within
English (there is usually a north-south divide
mentioned in English)?

Whilst I am undertaking a linguistic inquisition, I
have often been puzzled by Geordie. Just what is this
language's origin? Is it Norse, or Scots, or northern
English, or a mixture of all three? What specific
phonological features mark it out (Geordie always
reminds me somewhat of northern Irish phonology -
palatisation, perhaps)?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

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