LL-L "Language varieties" 2001.11.01 (03) [E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Thu Nov 1 21:25:56 UTC 2001
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L O W L A N D S - L * 01.NOV.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Dl7bk at aol.com
Subject: Language varieties
Dear Lowlanders,
Críostóir O Ciardha wrote:
> I would very much appreciate a short core-vocabulary wordlist of
>comparisons between Standard Dutch and the Low Saxon variants, if possible.
Thank you Ron and Holger for your statements about Low Saxon and Dutch. Since
I live right at the Dutch border, I'd like to give some brief examples of the
different dialects/languages. The first part of the table shows from west to
east:
Standard Dutch Dutch LS Emsl. LS East. Frisia LS Oldenb./Bremen LS
praten proten proten proten
snacken
mooi mooi mooi mooi
schön/scheun
klein klein lüttket lüttjet
lütt
vandaag vandaag vandage vandaag vandaag
meisje wicht wicht wicht
wicht/deern
zaterdag zaterdag saterdag saterdag
sünnavend
woensdag (w)oensdag gaunsdag midweek midweek
(younger: also midweek)
roken roken roken/röken roken smöken
hij heeft hij heff he haff he
hett
he hett
wachten wachten wachten wachten töven
The second part of the table goes farther to the east
(Hamburg/Schleswig-Holstein) and High German and English (Ron, please correct
me if you find any mistake):
Hamburg LS German English
snacken sprechen to speak, to talk
scheun schön beatiful, pretty, nice
lütt klein small, little
hüüt heute today
deern Mädchen girl
sünnavend Sonnabend/ Saturday
Samstag
? Mittwoch Wednesday
smöken rauchen to smoke
he hett er hat he has
töven warten to wait
As one can see, there is a gradual transition from Dutch to forms which are
seen as "typical" Low Saxon and finally to German, where the influence of
High German seems to have been stronger (e.g. Schleswig Holstein "woch"
instead of "week" or the example in the table: "vandaag" vs. "hüüt"). This is
just to give an impression for those who are not familiar with Dutch and/or
Low Saxon. As Ron already pointed out, there is no strict language border
between the Netherlands and Germany. It becomes more and more perceptible,
however, since Low Saxon words on both sides of the border are being replaced
by words from the respective "standard language" (i.e. Dutch and German).
Kind regards
Hyazinth (Zintus) Sievering
Wippingen/Emsland
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Dear Hyazinth, Lowlanders,
Thanks for the list (above), Hyazinth. Yours is a great vantage point there
near the border, so things must seem very clear to you.
As for your list, please allow me to substitute the orthographic LS
representations with *phonemic* (underlying) ones. As you and most
subscribers know, Low Saxon (Low German) has no standard orthography, only a
muddle of half-baked systems that in Germany are designed to make them look
German, and that thus ignore important detail. In other words, the written
forms are misleading. For one thing, they do not represent differences
between monophthongs and diphthongs where the latter are "un-German."
Furthermore, at least in most dialects, it is incorrect to write "o" in words
such as _proten_. The phoneme is /aa/; thus _praten_ is correct. Because
this long, between somewhat and strongly rounded /aa/ (> [Q:] ~ [o:]) sounds
different from the Standard Dutch and Standard German realizations of long
/a/, people want to distinguish the LS one and write it "ao", "oa", "å" or
"o". "O" is the most unfortunate choice because it coincides with genuine "o"
and /aa/ and /oo/ are thus not distinguished, neither is /ou/ in German
orthographies, where it is also written as "o" or "oo". For the sake of
consistency, I will write Standard Dutch phonemically as well.
(1)
St.Dutch NL LS Emsl.LS E.Fries.LS Oldenb./Bremen LS
praate(n) praaten praaten praaten snaken
mo(o)i moi moi moi schöün**
klein klein* lütk(et) lütj(et) lüt
vandaag vandaag' vandage vandaag' vandaag'
meisje wicht wicht wicht wicht/deirn****
zaaterdag zaaterdag zaaterdag zaaterdag sünaavend
wuunsdag (w)uunsdag gaunsdag midweek midweek
rooke(n)*** rouken rouken/röüken rouken smöüken
hei heeft hij hef hei haf hei het hei het
wachte(n) wachten wachten wachten töüven**
_______
* Groningen /klain/
** /öü/ -> [OI] in Lower Elbe dialects
*** Many Dutch dialects diphthongize, thus /rouke(n)/
**** _Wicht_ may be Frisian-derived.
Below, German is phonemic also.
(2)
Hamburg LS German English
snaken sprechen/reeden to speak/talk
schöün* schöön beautiful/pretty/nice
lüt klain small/little
hüüt hoite today
deirn** meedchen girl
sünaavend*** zonaabend/zamstaag Saturday
mid(e)week mitwoch Wednesday
smöüken* rauchen to smoke
hei het e(e)r hat he has
töüven* *** warten to wait
_______
* In Hamburg and other Lower Elbe areas, /öü/ -> [OI], thus written _scheun_,
_smeuken_ or _smäuken_ and _teuben_ or _täuben_
** In Hamburg and other Lower Elbe areas, /ei/ before /r/ -> /ii/, thus
written _Diern_
*** Dialects of Hamburg and other Lower Elbe areas have intervocalic [b] where
most other dialects have intervocalic [v], thus written _Sünnobend_ and
_teuben_ or _täuben_.
Again, in the same sequence, the Hamburg dialect words as they tend to be
written. After ">" or "=" I'll add the equivalents in Hamburg Missingsch
(German with Low Saxon substrate).
/snaken/: snacken > snacken ~ schnacken
/schöün/: scheun = schön
/lüt/: lütt > lütt (~ klein)
/hüüt/: hüüt = heute ['hO.It@] ~ ['hO.Id@]
/deirn/: Diern = Deern ~ Diern (= Meechng)
/sünaavend/: Sünnobend ~ Sünnomd = Sonnaamd
/mid(e)week/: Mid(de)week = Mittwoch
/smöüken/: smeuken ~ smäuken > smeukng ~ schmeukng (= rauchng)
/hei het/: he hett = ää hat
/töüven/: teuben ~ täuben > teubm (= waatn)
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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