LL-L "Language varieties" 2001.11.04 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 04.NOV.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Brian Frerichs" <frerichs at midwest.net>
Subject: Language Varieties

List,

First, a little background information.  I am from an area in East
Central Illinois where there are many people of East Frisian
heritage.  For the most part, the East Frisian Low German in this area
is spoken only by those over the age of 70.  I am 31 years
old, and belong to the first generation in the area to be raised without
Low German being spoken in the home.

I've noticed words ending in "cht" seem to be pronounced very
differently between Low German speakers here and those in
Germany.  Here, the German "cht" sound seems to have been completely
dropped.  For example, the words _nacht_ and _sacht_
sound like "naaw" and "saaw", and _wicht_ and _licht_ sound like "veyah"
and "leyah".  Could this "softening" of the "cht" sound be
a result of English influences?  Or is the German sounding "cht" used by
German speakers a result of High German influences?  Or
somewhere in between?

I also have a question about the word _verdaag_ ("today").  I usually
see the word written _vandaag_, _vundaag_, _vondage_, etc.  In
my area, the word is pronounced "fadaaw" or "fedaaw", without the "n"
sound.  An acquaintance of mine in Harlingerland has also
used the spelling _verdaag_.   Would anyone care to give a geographical
comparison of the different pronunciations, similar to the
one given for _proten_?

Thank you,
Brian Frerichs

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From: "Holger Weigelt" <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2001.11.03 (03) [E/S]

> From: Dl7bk at aol.com
> Subject: Language Varieties
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> thank you for your reactions to my table (comparison of Dutch and
> different
> Low Saxon dialects), Ron and Holger. The lack of a standard orthography
> is
> indeed the biggest problem that we Low Saxon speakers have. Since there
> are
> several spellings (some of which are rather scientific and in my opinion
> too
> far away from the needs of "ordinary people") I tried to do it the way
> most
> writers of Low Saxon, especially in Eastern Frisia and Emsland do. This
> means
> that I normally use aa for the vowel in "maaken" which is something
> between a
> and o in most Low Saxon dialects. Only in my posting about different
> dialects
> in Emsland Low Saxon (a few weeks ago) I also used ao to show the
> difference
> between different pronunciations. In my table Dutch - Low Saxon I quoted
> the
> word "proten" which is pronounced with an "o" like in the English word
> "open"
> ("closed o"). That is why I did not spell "praaten".
>
> Holger, your orthographic system surely is a spelling that meets the
> needs of
> the language. But I think, language should meet the needs of the people
> if we
> want people to keep using the language. So if we want people to read and
> write our Low Saxon language let's not make it too difficult for them.
> You
> and I and all subscribers to this list would be ready and able to adapt
> to a
> spelling which is totally different from what they have learned at
> school,
> but the average newspaper reader would not. He would rather resort to
> Standard ("High") German where he thinks himself to be on safe
> territory.

Well, Hyazinth, You aren't the first to say so but I can't see why an
orthographic system like the one I proposed should be too difficult.
Originally it was made up not for scientific but for practical use. I
searched for a possibility to write texts in East Frisian LS in a way
that
shows the phonematical and grammatical features of the language. The
basic
is the most simple ask that the same sound has to be written the same
way
wherever it occurs. If You look on the spelling I propose You will see
it
isn't too far from what people in our area are used to. Only the marking
of
the differnt types of long vowels is new and may look strange to them.
The
main difference is that I don't try to make it look German. If You have
a
look on the spelling of different varieties of North Frisian people
there
don't seem to have any problem using special characters. People will get
accustomized to it by use. Don't forget there are people in the world
who
can read Vietnamese!
During my work on EFLS I learned that orthography and orthographical
standardization isn't a matter of linguitics only. Much stronger than
Your
argument (difficulty of use) is the political objection. Institutions
that
deal with cultural matters don't wish such changes. They also don't wish
the
people to have a deeper look on their local language-variants. They want
to
force a general Low Saxon standardized from the Netherlands to the
Polish
border due to a - non-existent - All-Low-Saxon identity. Maybe it has to
do
with money from the European Union that is the easier to receive the
larger
the project they want it for
- but that' s just an insinuation.

> East Frisian LS is a good example: a speaker from Rheiderland says:
> "schkiaul", people in Aurich say "schkaul" and in the Fehn area the word
> is
> pronounced like"schköil" but everybody knows that the word "school" is
> meant,
> the spelling and meaning of which is exactly the same as in English, by
> pure
> coincidence. But this is what East Frisian readers are meanwhile
> accustomed
> to and what they are, reluctantly, willing to accept.

Right, there must be a measure of standardization. In reality the local
differences aren't as large as many East Frisians tend to believe and
You
can write any variant being understood by speakers of the others too.
The
problem is that in the past standardization for EFLS mostly took place
based
on the phonemically poorest variant. This I believe to be wrong as I
pointed
out in my work.

----------

From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
Subject: Low Saxon (was: Language varieties)

Críostóir O Ciardha wrote:

> I'm to reveal a shocking ignorance and idiocy on my part with regard Low
> Saxon: I don't entirely know how different the language is from Dutch. So
> far as I understand it - and my linguistic [in]aptitude has lapsed greatly
> since I relocated to Australia - Low Saxon is part of a "sprachbund" or
> dialect-continuum with Dutch... isn't Dutch "ik" and "maken" also "ik and
> "maken" in Low Saxon?
>
> I would very much appreciate a short core-vocabulary wordlist of
> comparisons between Standard Dutch and the Low Saxon variants, if possible.
>
> Dank u (and apologies to Low Saxon)

On my site
http://members1.chello.nl/~w.vanwoerkom/vergelijkingdialecten.htm
you can find a comparison of several local dialects in the Netherlands.
Those
local dialects are ranked per regional language, and there are 7 Low
Saxon
varieties. The original Dutch translation is not shown on the site, so I
hope
you know enough Dutch to notice the differences between Low Saxon and
Dutch.

Regards,
Mathieu

----------

From: "Roger Thijs" <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language varieties

>From Saturday Oct. 27 till last Wednesday I was at the Apics
(www.apics.org) Annual Conference in San Antonio. Except for senator Bob
Dole's speach Monday morning (with a mixture of his classical jokes with
"post Sept. 11" reflections) and an evening in the Rivercenter Marriott
with Los Lobos (starting with their modern repertoire buth switching
finally, on demand of the elder audience, to some Ritchie Valens songs),
the confurence was focussed on classical "supply chain" subjects.

Sunday morning 7:30-9:30 a.m. I was invited for a focus group, coached
by some consultants from New York, for evaluating the Apics services.
With the Americans I agreed the most valuable contribution is the "Apics
Dictionary". Everybody's using several logistics buzz words with a
variety of interpretations and meanings. Standardization has been very
helpfull here.
Critics I forwarded (and they were supported by the Americans): the
Apics certification exams are world-wide organized multile-choice exams.
The proposed answers are generally very close to each other, and one has
to be damn good in (American) English for separating them properly.

Coming to the subject of this list:

1. Stupid is as stupid does.

On the Delta flight from Brussels to Atlanta they gave Forrest Gump. I
guess everybody saw this film several times, but it is still
entertaining. Forrest is allmost systematically stretching the vowel of
the last syllable of a sentence or a part of a sentence. (With a few
exceptions as e.g. "the YOU-nited States")

Back home I checked on a video tape "Through the eyes of Forrest Gump".
Tom Hawks also stretches "some" syllables in normal speach, but as
Forrest he systematically stretches the "last" syllable. As Forrest he
imitates the natural speach of Michael Humpfries, the young Missisippi
boy playing young-Forrest.

Is that stretching of Anglo-Saxon origin and can it be found bach in
some dialects in the UK? Or is it African influenced?

Note: In the CD shops downtown Antwerp I saw some publicity that a DVD
version of the film will be in the shops mid-November. DVD's in Belgium
(in DVD Region 2) generally include selectable dubbing in 2 to 5
languages and subtitling in 5 to 20 languages; Dutch is generally not
dubbed but only selectable for subtitling. I'm curious to find out what
accent Forrest will get in the French and German dubbings.

2. On the flight back home, when flying over the British Isles, there
was some tourist info. About Cork there was reference to the original
"Corkonian sing-song" accent.

Is this accent Anglo-Saxon or is it Irish inherited?

3. In San Antonio I bought a couple of "Farmers's Almanacs 2001" (The
"Harris" and the "Thomas").

Is the form "hath" for "has" still popular in farmer's circles?
- "January hath 31 days" (Thomas)
- "The First Month Hath 31 Days" (Harris)

Btw what do Americans understand by "Deep South"?
For the "South" Harris gives (rougly on a map) the triangle with the
line Texas-Georgia at the bottom and with Arkansas-Missisippi on top.
Does this correspond to general understanding of what the "Deep" South
is?

4. I  bought a book by T.G. Jordan, "German Seed in Texas Soil".

It deals with the 19th century German settlements in Texas.
"Mecklenburg" was the strongest origin of immigration, "Oldenburg" the
second strongest. The book deals with what kind of crop they cultivated
etc. but does not touch linguistic survival. The surviving  associations
have standard German names, as e.g. the "Landwirtschaftlicher Verein"
(with an "historical" meeting hall in Cat Spring, Austin County)

Is there still some survival of spokrn Low-Saxon in rural Texas?

I stayed in the historical "Menger" hotel downtown San Antonio. I guess
"Menger" is also a rather Low-German name?

5. I have been looking for books in "Texas English". I didn't find any,
just some books with "typical" expressions. A few samples.

- Kinky Friedman's "Guide to Texas Etiquette":

"catty whompus" - used to describe something that doen't fit properly or
is out of line
"Well, gutter my buff and call me a biscuit!" - an affirmative comment,
also used as a greeting
"mona" - used with the first person singular to state what one intends
to do. Going to.
"rot" - the opposite of left
"larrupin" - a few fingers tastier than finger-lickin' good
etc.

- A Dinguis: "More Texas sayings than you can shake a stick at":

for "Dead"
- Dead as a peeled egg.
- Dead as jerky.
- Dead as a doornail.
- Buzzard bait.
- The buzzards are circling.
- He gave up his guitar for a harp.
- He ate a bitter pill.
- She opened herself up a worm farm.
- She's fertilizing the fields.
- She's dead; she just won't lie down.
- Her candle's been snuffed.
- His picture went dark.
- The devil's coming round with his bill.

- E.R. "Frosty" Potter: "Cowboy Slang"
(not published in Texas but in Phoenix AZ)

for "Dead"
- He saddled a cloud an'rode to the great beyond
- He was starin' at the sky an' seein' nothin'.
- Dead as a can of corned beef.
- Boothill is full of them fellers who pulled their triggers without
aiming
- He was caught short an' now he's deadern' hell in some preacher's back
yard.
- The grass is now wavin' over him
- He got a pill in the stomach he couldn't digest
- We put him to bed with a pick an' shovel.
- I made 'em deadern a beaver hat.

Curious to me is the lack of overlap between "Dingus" and "Potter".

"Potter" also lists 60 colors for horses, a few samples:

"American cream": Pretty close to common cow's cream
"Appallosa": Snow-white hair over the loin and hips with dark round or
egg-shaped spots
"Bay" Hard to explain but easy to see. Pretty much a mixture of red and
yellow, the lighter the bay, the more yellow shows. A dark bay has more
red. Bays always have black points.
"Gruello": Grey blue-like a mouse and always has black points
"Katty": Lack of uniformity of color. A dull dirty tone
"Overo": Scattered patters of color on dark backgrounds.
"Tobino" Large patterns of color on white background.
"Mealy-Mouthed": A horse whose color is faded out around the mouth,
especially in bays and browns.
etc.

6. I thought I bought some songs in "Appalachian" language, buying at
Atlanta airport the CD:
"Yo-yo Ma, Edgar Meyer, Marc O'Connor: Appalachian Journey".
It's nice string music, not vocal.

Are there folk singers in Appalachian? Did they get their songs on CD?

7. I would expect school education in Texas is bilingual, and a good an
thorough knowledge of Spanish is a must for High School students.

Just looking in:
Peterson's "Get a Jump! 2002" (Texas; The high School Student's Regional
Guide to College Planning and Career Exploration)
In the test programs (ACT, PLAN, SAT I) there are modules "English",
"Reading", "Verbal Reasoning", "Writing Skills" etc., but absolutely no
requirement nor a credit for mastering a foreign language.

Why in a state, so close to the Mexican border, with a strong Spanish
speaking population in the state, "Spanish" is dealt no better with as
parish dialects are treated in schools of Continental Europe?

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: "Roger Thijs" <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language varieties

Robert Long (Netherlands) and Margriet Hermans (Belgium) recorded a song
about the differences in vocabulary between Belgian Dutch and Dutch from
the Netherlands. (Text on the tunes of Gershwin's "Let's call the whole
thing off")

I saved it as a wma file
(can be played with "Windows Media Player" cf. Microsoft website if you
have not already insttalled Media Player by default),
and I have put it on url:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/verschil.wma

I will remove it after a couple of days, at least next Sunday if not
earlier.

The wma file corresponds to track 4 of the CD (total: 15 tracks):
Robert Long (and others): Uit Liefde voor Gershwin
EMI Music Holland BV, 7243 8 59199 2 3

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at starmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2001.11.02 (07) [E]

At 00:07 03/11/01, Edwin Deady wrote:
>Does one need a secret language to bond? Schoolboys might but grown-ups
>shouldn't need it.

In my earlier posting, I stated that "one of the benefits of any
language (minority or otherwise) is that it serves as a bonding and
identifying factor among members of the community by which it is used."

The part about a "secret" language is an invention of ED's and,
other than pointing that out, no other comment from me is needed.

>You are wrong anyway, community first then the distinctive language follows.

Even accepting the latter assertion as true, I see nothing
in it to show that my earlier statement (above) is wrong.

>Governments might have an exaggerated idea of the benfits of universal
>education and of children being able to communicate with the
>rest of the country but it is pure conspiracy theory to see their efforts as
>the wilful destruction of communities in all cases. Economics and
>Environment are more likely to destroy a community.

The point about "in all cases" is an another invention of ED's.
So is the suggestion that language eradication is the only, or even
the most frequent, factor leading to the destruction of communities.

ED would do well to learn how to conduct a reasoned discussion
rather than posting a succession of "strawmen".

><"Real language"? Perhaps some explanation of this idea would be in order.>
>
>One that is spoken easily and naturally (follow me so far?) and has not had
>to be deliberately taught as a second language or remade
>because bits of grammar or vocabulary are unknown/forgotten. If a community
>has lost "its" language then the real language of that
>community is the one it speaks

My thanks to ED for this clarification. I note see that
most, if not all, minority languages are "real languages" according
to this definition. I say this, given that they are spoken easily
and naturally without being taught or remade. If this were not so,
then they would not be spoken at all.

>Would it benefit anyone except an antiquarian if the once isolated dwellers of
>the English Fens still spoke a version of brythonic
>unintelligible even to Welsh speakers?

Any benefit to the individuals concerned would be a matter for they
themselves to judge.

*********************************************************************
 Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                               the barra wadna row its lane
 writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
 the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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