LL-L "Humor" 2001.11.14 (01) [E]

Wed Nov 14 23:06:09 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.NOV.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Elsie Zinsser" <ezinsser at simpross.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2001.11.13 (03) [E]

Hello all

In response to Edwin [AEDUIN at aol.com] who said:
>Surely all aspects of race etc. should be explored in humour and in any

>other activity? Below this space are a number of racist terms if you
are
>really sensitive, delete the message now.

I agree that all aspects of life, also race, should be explored in
humour.
Actually all artistic forms are supposed to entertain, inform and
enlighten us.
Name-calling (your only example of "humour"?!) is as much exploration as
picking one's nose is a quest for insight.

In a recent Word a Day posting, Anu gave us the following quote by Dale
Spender:
"Language is not neutral. It is not merely a vehicle which carries
ideas.
It is itself a shaper of ideas."

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2001.11.13 (03) [E]

>From: AEDUIN at aol.com
Wrote:
<snip>
>
>Below this space are a number of racist terms if you are really
>sensitive, delete the message now.
>
<snip>
...is anyone harmed?

Neither harmed nor impressed

Andy Eagle

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From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at starmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2001.11.13 (03) [E]

At 22:37 13/11/01, AEDUIN at aol.com wrote:
>Surely all aspects of race etc. should be explored in humour and in any
>other activity?

That sounds more like an issue for debate, than a certainty
in front of which we can write "surely". In any case, it's itself
debateable whether (other people's) groundless stereotypes are
genuinely an aspect of race, etc, and amenable to being explored
as such, through humour or otherwise.

>Below this space are a number of racist terms if you are really
>sensitive, delete the message now.

(list deleted)

>there, is anyone harmed?
>
>We devalue the hurt in words by using them.

Possibly, but in this case those words weren't really being used,
only cited.

Good wishes to all,

*********************************************************************
 Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                               the barra wadna row its lane
 writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
 the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From: "Aviad Stier" <aviad2001 at hotmail.com>
Subject:

Hello Lowlanders!
Edwin wrote:
Dear Elsie

Surely all aspects of race etc. should be explored in humour and in any
other activity?

When I was growing up in Israel, jokes about Scotsmen (supposedly being
miserly etc.) were quite commonplace. I believe the "tradition" started
in
the time of the British mandate in the '40's. Needless to say, no-one of
us
kids had ever seen an actual Scotsman in our lives. I also seriously
doubt
that those jokes have had even the slightest influence on the way we
thought
of real Scottish people or Scotland: it was clear to us, even as kids,
that
"Scotsman" was just a generalization, a "type" rather than actual
people.
Then again, Arabs and Jews in Israel tell awful jokes about each other,
which in this case helps creating the fear and hate that reign in our
streets nowadays. So is it okay or isn't it?
I think I can usually tell between an ethnic/gender/racial joke told in
a
benevolent, jocular manner, and a malignant one. In the first case it's
often quite clear that the teller doesn't intend to hurt anyone, and
doesn't
personally believe the stereotypes which are stated in the joke are
true.
The joke pokes fun at a specific group, but also at the stereotype
itself,
society and the teller. In the other case you can tell right away that
the
teller of the joke is prejudiced and often resents people belonging to
the
group the joke's about. In that case I feel very uncomfortable and would
usually tell the person telling the joke that I do not approve of
racial/ethnic/etc. jokes.
Am I being hypocritical? Maybe. But here in Belgium there are so many
ethnic
and language groups, that it's not uncommon to hear (say, in a party)
Flemings, Walloons, Germans, Brits, Dutchmen, Limburgers etc. telling
jokes
about one another and about themselves, complete with imitations of
different accents, and no-one seems to mind. Indeed, everyone has a good
laugh. I like it this way.
Aviad Stier.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Humor

Dear Lowlanders,

Somehow, Edwin Deady (and both first and last name must appear in your
postings, folks) got us from the topic of ethnic jokes to the topic of
derogatory names.  While there is a loose connection between the two
(the former possibly illustrating and reenforcing stereotypes under the
cover of humor and the latter simply labeling stereotypical mental
images), I would like to return to the original topic of "jokes" in this
thread entitled "Humor," and, following Aviad's lead, I would like to
bring us back to the Lowlands.

My initial point had been about jokes about East Frisians, and I
explained that I personally, without being an East Frisian myself, have
felt offended by what I perceived as sheer nastiness in some such
supposed jokes.  Unless it can be shown that I am totally atypical ("too
sensitive") and quite alone in this, this alone should be a reason to
question the appropriateness of telling such supposed jokes.

I do agree that jokes about ethnic goups, nationalities, religious
groups, sexual minorities, etc., are not always told and understood in
an offensive way, but it is my contention that such jokes do not fulfill
any useful purpose other than, at best, giving people a few seconds of
amusement.  I feel that the harm they can do outweighs the supposed good
they do.  Much depends on the attitude, experience and perception of the
teller and of the listener and on the attitudes, experiences and
perceptions of the people to whom the listener passes them on.  I do not
tell such jokes and refuse to listen to them because I do not want to
help encourage and perpetuate *any* sort of stereotyping under any
circumstance.  However, if I told them I would definitely not tell them
to anyone whose attitude, experience and perception I did not know very
well.  I am well aware that not all people have the level of insight and
the power of distinction Aviad and others on this List have.

And there is no clear boundary between acceptable and unacceptable in
this case, as Aviad explains by using the Middle East examples of jokes
about Scottish people on the one hand and jokes that target Jewish
Israelis and Palestinians on the other hand.  To briefly stay in the
same part of the world, I remember the many stereotypical jokes told in
Israel about immigrants from various countries.  When I lived in Israel
and a group of Romanians arrived, a few older guys would go on saying
things like, "Here they come! Watch your wallets, comrades!", alluding
to the stereotype of the thieving (Jewish) Romanian, though I doubt that
(m)any really subscribed to it.  Later there was an incident in which a
group of young people refused to share accommodation with some of the
new Romanian arrivals, the argument being that their belongings would
not be safe.

"Humor" is a relative term; i.e., in my experience, what is perceived as
funny (and as acceptable humoristic topic, or, indeed, what is socially
acceptable) varies greatly from culture to culture.  If we continue this
thread, I suggest we try to explore if there are such differences and
humoristic traditions within the Lowlandic range of cultures.  If there
is any interest in this, I will try to dig up my collection of Low Saxon
(Low German) "humoristically extended proverbs" ([proverb + humoristic
tag]).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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