LL-L "Grammar" 2001.10.26 (06) [E]

Sat Oct 27 00:00:05 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2001 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2001.10.26 (04) [E]

Still common usage in Oz, frankly I never even noticed this as it is also
commonplace in Scotland, at least in the Lothians. e.g........
Thair's an awfy loat o' that flu gawn aroond.
Thair's Yer Auntie Mary ower thair.
Thair's a new sweetie shoap doo The Bridges.
Thair's the yin whoat dun it.
Thair's a polis at the door fur Ye. (Aye an thairs the back windae openin'
as he rins away.)
etc etc.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."

>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

> From: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2001.10.26 (04) [E]
>
> .... I am wondering about Australian English dialects.  In casual speech you
> will hear things like "There's no clean plates left in the cupboard," "There's
> swarms of flies," "There's tons of money," "There's about five dollars left,"
> and "There's lots of drunken drivers on the roads on Sat'dy nights."

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From: "Ian James Parsley (Laptop)" <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2001.10.26 (04) [E]

Ron and Candon,

Indeed, the 'Verbal Concord' issue in Scots is awkward historically. There
seems a lot of inconsistency right through to the present day. It is
complicated further by some linguists who believe, possibly with some
justification, that whether the subject appears adjacent to the verb affects
the issue.

With regard to 'says I', that strikes me as a 'narrative past' form, or
'habitual', which is still present in most Ulster Scots dialects
(particularly in Antrim). Because of verbal concord it's not always
immediately apparent, but all habitual clauses, or clauses with adverbs
expressing irregularity, must take a habitual form (ie root form plus
suffix -(e)s) in Antrim dialects.

Therefore:
'he bes here whiles, but no aften' ('he is here sometimes, but not often')
[Fenton _The Hamely Tongue_, 1995]
'That's juist the wey A taaks' ('that's just the way I talk') [Ulster-Scots
Academy leaflet, 1994]
'Thay aye daes that' ('They always do that') [overheard recently]

It is in fact an extremely difficult form for outsiders to master -
particularly where a subordinate clause is dependent on a main clause
expressing regularity (in the second case above, for example) in which case
the habitual form is required.

This form is also always used in the 'narrative past' form in Scots and
related English dialects - the John Pepper series of spoof Belfast dialect
books often makes use of 'Says I to him' and 'Says you' forms. I wonder if
these forms are quite so common with plural pronouns however ('Says they to
me'?)

I suspect a historical origin for all of this that I will leave to those
better versed than me in historical Anglo-Saxon forms to uncover!

Aefauldlie,
Ian James Parsley

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Folks,

We are moving somewhere around morphology and syntax, so, instead of opening
the specific thread "Syntax," I'll ask here for some input regarding
topicalization.

There is a specific device in many Low Saxon (Low German) dialects that I
assume to have started as topicalization and that has come to be used as some
sort of emphatic device in many contexts.  To tell you the truth, I am not
quite sure just how to describe it, and I am hoping that some of you can help
me and may in fact know similar cases in other Lowlands languages.
I feel that this device is similar to that of _wa_ marking in Japanese, which
is often described as topicalization, as opposed to non-topical _ga_ marking
(e.g., _ame ga furimashita_ "rain ga fell" = 'it rained' vs _ame wa
furimashita_ "rain wa fell" = 'as for rain, it fell').

The Low Saxon device:
[Wat {noun phrase} (to be} ..., {pronoun} {predicate}]

Examples:

Wat de Liddmaten sünd, de (~ se) hebbt daar nix vun weten
"What are the members, they knew nothing about it."
'As for the members, they knew nothing about it.'
'The members knew nothing about it.'

Wat mien Macker Hein is, den (~ em) heff ik tolest vör twee Jahr sehn.
"What is my buddy Hein, I last saw him two years ago."
'As for my buddy Hein, I last saw him two years ago.'
'I last saw my Buddy Hein two years ago.'

Thanks for thinking about it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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