LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.04 (10) [E/S]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 04.APR.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Grammar"

> From: "Colin Wilson" <lcwilson at starmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.02 (09) [E]
>
> Ian James Parsley wrote:
>
> >In Scots there is a similar issue.
> >
> >A gae tae kirk - I go to church (ie as a general rule)
> >A gae tae the kirk - I go to church (ie a single
> >event)
> >That at least appears to be the case in Ulster
> >dialects.
>
> In north-east Scotland, it would just be "the kirk" irrespective
> of the distinction above.

Yes, I was surprised at the distinction mentioned by Ian. In
Scots as I know it the article is always used: "the kirk",
"the schuil", "the ospital". Also, "awa tae the sea" but "at
hame" (though this specific phrase is an English borrowing,
I think: it would more usually be said "in the hoose" or by
some construction without an article, eg "he's hame the nou").

Note that although there is no "h" in the Scots word for
"hospital", learners shouldn't make the mistake of dropping
the initial "h" in Scots by analogy with this and city English
dialects - it only occurs in a tiny handful of words in Scots.
The Bart Simpson and Gardener Willy routine where WIlly keeps
dropping his "h"'s to Bart's confusion is, like all of Gardener
Willy's "Scots", complete nonsense.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From: "Nigel Smith" <rnigelsmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: Grammar

Matthew McGrattan wrote:

>In Central Scotland (Stirlingshire) it would be the same in both cases "the >kirk".<

Other contributors in Scotland have also suggested that 'the' is
obligatory
- or at least very common - in (non-Ulster) Scots.

My own (East Lothian) experience would suggest 'the' is obligatory when
used with _schuil_ [skIl] but not with _school_ [skUl]/[skül],
suggesting (I think) that it is more strongly a feature of Scots rather
than of Scottish English.

Matthew McGrattan>I'm not sure if this holds in situations where a
question
is being asked:
"D'ye go tae church?" (general rule)
"Huv(hae) ye been tae the kirk?" (specific event)<

Interesting... to me the two sentences below would mean different
things:
huv ye been tae the kirk? = have you attended a church service of
worship
huv ye been tae the church? = have you visited a (possibly hitherto
unfamiliar) church, or perhaps indicating a specific purpose, e.g. huv
ye
been tae the church tae dae the flooers yet?

So with 'go/gae', church is the building and kirk is the institution, if
you like. Doesn't seem to apply when 'go' is not used: in the names of
buildings, 'kirk' is the common word, e.g. Yester Kirk, the kirkyaird
and so on.

I suspect Scots and Scottish English may have a tendency to make nouns
more
definite (i.e. add 'the' or a possessive). We have seen lots of examples
with 'the' but it also happens with e.g.
Ah huvnae had my denner yet = I haven't had lunch yet
What did you get for your Christmas = What did you get for Christmas
I'm on my holidays = I'm on holiday (You find the last one in Welsh too:
Dw
i ar FY ngwyliau 'Am I on my holidays').

Or is this a question of formality/informality, and unconnected?

Nigel Smith

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