LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.11 (05) [E/S]

Thu Apr 11 19:35:38 UTC 2002

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Grammar"

> From: "Colin Wilson" <lcwilson at starmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.07 (04) [E]
>
> >From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
> >Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.04 (10) [E/S]
>
> >I'm not sure about the North East
> >here - that is, although phrases like 'my holidays' are certainly used,
> >I'm not sure about 'on holiday'. Colin?
>
> In north-east Scotland, expressions using a possessive adjective
> + "holidays" are used to mean "on holiday", both adjectivally and
> adverbially.
>
> "A gaed ma holidays tae Prague" => "I went on holiday to Prague"
> "A wis there ma holidays" => "I was there on holiday".

This agrees with my (East Lothian) Scots, but there is also
the form using the indefinite article, eg:

"A wis there on a holiday"
"A wis there for a holiday"
"A wis there a holiday"

"A'm gaun a holiday tae Prague"

Semantically the first three seem to me identical but contrast
slightly with the possessive pronoun forms - "a holiday" might
be _any_ holiday, but "ma holidays", "oor holidays", "yer
holidays" suggest a regular (usually annual) holiday period.

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> One thing I have noticed about certain English dialects of England (for
> instance those of Yorkshire) is that "our" must (?) precede the name of
> one's relative when one talks about him or her; e.g., "Have you seen our
> Jane?", "That's typical of our Billy," or "Our Vera is in hospital."
>
> How extensively does this apply, with regard to both usage and dialectal
> spread?  Is it used in Scots as well?  What about other Lowlands
> languages?

In the North of England this can be used very extensively,
even to the point where it's included in vocative forms, eg:

"Where are you going, our Billy?"

In Scots as I know it, however, it's usually only used
contrastively, eg:

"Hiv ye seen Mary?" (when there's only one Mary it could be)

but:

"Hiv ye seen oor Mary?" (as opposed to any other Mary)

or:

"Hiv ye seen your Mary?" (again, as opposed to any other Mary).

Within the family, people with the same name can be distinguished
as follows:

"Auld Jock" vs "young Jock" (though not everyone would accept
                             being called "auld")

"Big Mary" vs "wee Mary" ("wee Mary" must have been a child
                          once, though the names can persist
                          throughout adulthood)

In families where children tend to be named after their
parents, the following humorous rhymes are sometimes used
about the situation:

There's auld Jock, an young Jock,
  An Jock o middle age,
An whan we get anither Jock,
  We'll pit him in a cage.

or:

Little Jock an muckle Jock,
  An Jock amang the bairns,
Whan we git anither Jock
  We'll ca oot auld Jock's hairns.

muckle - big
bairns - children
ca oot - knock out
hairns - brains

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> In some languages, a person's name must be marked by a definite article,
> albeit usually not in the vocative.  This applies for instance in
> Portuguese (e.g., _O Antnio visitou-me_ "The Anthony visited me") and
> (Modern) Greek (e.g., _me o Pdros_ "I am the Peter," _ne i Elni_
> "She is the Helen").

This doesn't happen in Scots, although a prominent member of
a family, such as the eldest son or the father (these days it
doesn't sound strange applied to women, either) might have the
definite article applied to their second name. I'm often called
"The Fleemin", although there's no special rule saying that you
can't refer to younger siblings in this way as well, if there's
no room for confusion.

> Wat de Hinnerk is, de sitt al lang achter sweedsche Gardienen.
> ("What is the Henry, he sits already long behind Swedish curtains.")
> 'As for Henry, he's been in jail for quite some time already.'

This is usually accomplished with "see" in Central Scots
dialects, I'm not sure about others, eg:

"See Jamie, he's aye got his nose in a beuk."

but it can be applied to anything, not just people:

"See Jelly Babies, I canna leave them alane!"

In this sort of construction, the vowel is pronounced short: /si/.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.11 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:

> In some languages, a person's name must be marked by a definite article,
> albeit usually not in the vocative.  This applies for instance in
> Portuguese (e.g., _O António visitou-me_ "The Anthony visited me") and
> (Modern) Greek (e.g., _Íme o Pédros_ "I am the Peter," _Íne i Eléni_
> "She is the Helen").

This is not uncommon in Zeeuws, but again there are other regions were
it is
far more widespread. In Flanders, you can hear it quite often. I think
the
situation in which a definite article is used, are about the same in
both
Zeeland and Flanders. It's used mostly to express that you know the
person
that you're talking about very well: _Jaet, ik è de Jan nog gekend, oor_
('Yes, I knew the Jan'); _ie eit er wiste kieke mee de Jewan van de
slachter_ ('he has been there with the Jewan of the butcher's').
I remember that a friend of mine from Germany (Baden Würtemberg) uses
the
definitive article almost all the time, even when she speaks Dutch or
English. She also uses it when pointing out which Peter or Hans or Anke
she
was talking about: _die Rühls Anke_, 'the Anke (of the) Rühl (family)'.

Regards,

Marco

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